IS THE REFORMED FAITH BIBLICAL?

[Christian Soldier]

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”

Malachi 3:6
“For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

Numbers 23:19
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?


Micah 5:2

The Coming Messiah​

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.”

Psalm 93:2
Your throne is established from of old; You are from everlasting.

Ezekiel 26:19-21

19 “For thus says the Lord God: ‘When I make you a desolate city, like cities that are not inhabited, when I bring the deep upon you, and great waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lowest part of the earth, in places desolate from antiquity, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you may never be inhabited; and I shall establish glory in the land of the living. 21 I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again,’ says the Lord God.”

Thank you for taking the time and sharing these doctrinal treasure troves. There's so much to unpack in the last three of your posts, I could spend the next three weeks studying all the theology they contain. I'm somewhat overwhelmed, and it would take a long time to respond to every point you made, but I can assure you I didn't see any red flags in anything you shared.

It's very rare for me to read through so much material and agree with everything. But it is very encouraging to hear from others who embrace the bible doctrine of Gods sovereignty in all things. Most Christians are happy to ascribe a measure of sovereignty to God but they add boundaries and limit God's sovereignty to the extent that it doesn't encroach on their free will and autonomy.

I get the sense that you believe that, nothing is off limits to God and He predestined all of mankind's history from the beginning to the end, and nothing has ever happened apart from His will. Most reject this doctrine, because in their view this would make God unfair. They usually say that according to this doctrine, God creates people for the specific reason to torment them in hell. But they ignore the fact that those who are cast into hell, lived their lives in open rebellion against God and they served sin and Satan.

I'm sure you've heard all the arguments from the "free choice camp", who resent the doctrine of Gods sovereignty, in election and predestination to salvation, before He created the world. This is the most rejected and hated doctrine of all, it is estimated that less than 10% of professing Christians believe this doctrine.

I believe the reason it's rejected and hated by so many Christians, is because they try to rationalize Gods ways, (which are infinitely higher than ours). When you try to get into the mind of God, and try to figure out how He does what He does and why He does what He does. You fail before you begin, because His ways are past finding out. Our minds are too puny to fit God into them. He is outside of His creation, He is separate to us, His ways are mysterious.

There are many scriptures which confirm that God keeps many things hidden from us. Some would say it's not fair why doesn't He tell us everything we want to know. I believe He hides those thing to protect us, if He revealed what we want to know, it would blow our minds and damage us. So I believe He protects us from ourselves, by not revealing everything we want to know. He forbids fortune tellers and Witchcraft for this very reason, He said today's troubles are enough for you to deal with, but we foolishly want to burden ourselves with tomorrows troubles as well and lose sleep and worry about the things we can't change.

It took me around four years after I was converted, to accept Gods sovereignty in all things. I couldn't deal with the thought that some of my family members are not chosen for salvation by God. I couldn't understand how I could enjoy eternal paradise, while some of my beloved family members and friends are being tormented in hell.
I finally embraced this bible doctrine after a Deacon at my Church reminded me that Gods people will receive the mind of Christ, in the life to come. He said when you receive the mind of Christ, you will agree with everything God does and you will love Him for it and praise Him for it.
He said, I won't shed a tear for anyone because I will understand that God is perfectly just and His punishment will be no more or less than they deserve.

I no longer question anything God does, I simply trust and obey Him. He has removed the burden from me and set me free to enjoy Him.
It's not natural for man to relinquish autonomy and so called freedom, to follow Christ. We naturally want to be in control of our lives, and we want God to conform to the image we have of Him. But that's not Gods will for His people, He wants us to put Him first in all things and to love Him above everyone.
Then He can bless us with every good thing, if we try to hold on to our will, He will let us have our way but it's always to our own detriment and we pierce ourselves through with many sorrows. Then we come back broken and repent, and He restores us. We eventually learn to trust that His ways are infinitely better for us than our ways.

Job 38:4-7​

​

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?​

Tell Me, if you have understanding.​

5 Who determined its measurements?​

Surely you know!​

Or who stretched the line upon it?​

6 To what were its foundations fastened?​

Or who laid its cornerstone,​

7 When the morning stars sang together,​

And all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

 

[Scott Downey]

Thank you for taking the time and sharing these doctrinal treasure troves. There's so much to unpack in the last three of your posts, I could spend the next three weeks studying all the theology they contain. I'm somewhat overwhelmed, and it would take a long time to respond to every point you made, but I can assure you I didn't see any red flags in anything you shared.

It's very rare for me to read through so much material and agree with everything. But it is very encouraging to hear from others who embrace the bible doctrine of Gods sovereignty in all things. Most Christians are happy to ascribe a measure of sovereignty to God but they add boundaries and limit God's sovereignty to the extent that it doesn't encroach on their free will and autonomy.

I get the sense that you believe that, nothing is off limits to God and He predestined all of mankind's history from the beginning to the end, and nothing has ever happened apart from His will. Most reject this doctrine, because in their view this would make God unfair. They usually say that according to this doctrine, God creates people for the specific reason to torment them in hell. But they ignore the fact that those who are cast into hell, lived their lives in open rebellion against God and they served sin and Satan.

I'm sure you've heard all the arguments from the "free choice camp", who resent the doctrine of Gods sovereignty, in election and predestination to salvation, before He created the world. This is the most rejected and hated doctrine of all, it is estimated that less than 10% of professing Christians believe this doctrine.

I believe the reason it's rejected and hated by so many Christians, is because they try to rationalize Gods ways, (which are infinitely higher than ours). When you try to get into the mind of God, and try to figure out how He does what He does and why He does what He does. You fail before you begin, because His ways are past finding out. Our minds are too puny to fit God into them. He is outside of His creation, He is separate to us, His ways are mysterious.

There are many scriptures which confirm that God keeps many things hidden from us. Some would say it's not fair why doesn't He tell us everything we want to know. I believe He hides those thing to protect us, if He revealed what we want to know, it would blow our minds and damage us. So I believe He protects us from ourselves, by not revealing everything we want to know. He forbids fortune tellers and Witchcraft for this very reason, He said today's troubles are enough for you to deal with, but we foolishly want to burden ourselves with tomorrows troubles as well and lose sleep and worry about the things we can't change.

It took me around four years after I was converted, to accept Gods sovereignty in all things. I couldn't deal with the thought that some of my family members are not chosen for salvation by God. I couldn't understand how I could enjoy eternal paradise, while some of my beloved family members and friends are being tormented in hell.
I finally embraced this bible doctrine after a Deacon at my Church reminded me that Gods people will receive the mind of Christ, in the life to come. He said when you receive the mind of Christ, you will agree with everything God does and you will love Him for it and praise Him for it.
He said, I won't shed a tear for anyone because I will understand that God is perfectly just and His punishment will be no more or less than they deserve.

I no longer question anything God does, I simply trust and obey Him. He has removed the burden from me and set me free to enjoy Him.
It's not natural for man to relinquish autonomy and so called freedom, to follow Christ. We naturally want to be in control of our lives, and we want God to conform to the image we have of Him. But that's not Gods will for His people, He wants us to put Him first in all things and to love Him above everyone.
Then He can bless us with every good thing, if we try to hold on to our will, He will let us have our way but it's always to our own detriment and we pierce ourselves through with many sorrows. Then we come back broken and repent, and He restores us. We eventually learn to trust that His ways are infinitely better for us than our ways.

Job 38:4-7​

​

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?​

Tell Me, if you have understanding.​

5 Who determined its measurements?​

Surely you know!​

Or who stretched the line upon it?​

6 To what were its foundations fastened?​

Or who laid its cornerstone,​

7 When the morning stars sang together,​

And all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

There are these things Jesus said that may be relevant to what we have talked about and help people.

John 16

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He [c]will take of Mine and declare it to you.

v12, God knows not everybody can fully take in all the truths of God, so He the Holy Spirit steadily reveals His truth to us, as we can bear it.

God does not hold it against us that we can not bear certain things yet, His Holy Spirit teaches us concerning all things, the way things really are. And when we finally do come before Him, face to face, we will know many more things than we now know.

**********************************************************

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[marks]

Most reject this doctrine, because in their view this would make God unfair.

This isn't my objection. My objection is that it makes God disengenous, which is another word for untrue. Jesus is not only true, but He is The Truth, you cannot separate truth and honesty from God, Who presents Himself as welcoming any who will come to Him.

"Come to Me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest", but you would have it that God didn't really mean "All who are weary and heavily burdened", what He really meant was, "all who I've chosen to come to me, not just any of you".

So the idea here is that while God is making it sound like an open invitation, according to you, it's not actually. And there are many other Scriptures like that, where without your "hidden caveats" sound like inclusive invitations, "and all who call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved", you render false, because while it sounds like a general invitation, you would claim it's not, and the reality is that there is already chosen by God a certain group who will be saved, and all the rest, forget it.

So for me it's not about fairness. We have ideas of what is fair and what isn't, and that's a balance that we all weigh, differently, and God's Way is what matters.

Truth, on the other hand, either is or isn't. Let God be true, and every man a liar.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

In Calvinism FAITH IN JESUS does NOT save a person.

GOD CHOOSING that person is what saves him.

If God MAKES US have faith then HE is choosing who will be saved.

Splitting hairs with scant fullness of truth.
People who are NOT Calvinists, JW, Mormons, think they are experts in those denominations, and scant on quoting the founders…
Suspected and have heard “religious founders” own congregation have over the decades Changed things from the original founders, but still attribute their denomination to the founders Name…

Just saying…there is AN ORDER and WAY…step by step…IN ANY Relationship…among People and including Between A man and God…
Is is not ONE Sided…both choose, both connect, both agree, both vow….or there is no relationship established….Both offer, give, take….or reject.

The Describing “words’ get all jumbled….
Grace, Faith, Works, Service, Vows, etc. Those words all have specific meanings…
And are effected at particular times in a relationship….BY TWO…BETWEEN TWO…
“not one sided”.

Men argue over…are “saved by faith ALONE…or saved by works ALONE”….baloney.

A mans SOUL is that which Gods SAVES…and it accomplished the moment God “restores” their SOUL.

However…the “courtship” comes first…getting to Know about God, and then getting to Know God…which is accomplished THROUGH Gods “advocate”….JESUS.

It is a process………just as it is with establishing ANY relationship.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Christian Soldier]

There are these things Jesus said that may be relevant to what we have talked about and help people.

John 16

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He [c]will take of Mine and declare it to you.

v12, God knows not everybody can fully take in all the truths of God, so He the Holy Spirit steadily reveals His truth to us, as we can bear it.

God does not hold it against us that we can not bear certain things yet, His Holy Spirit teaches us concerning all things, the way things really are. And when we finally do come before Him, face to face, we will know many more things than we now know.

**********************************************************

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Some have referred to, John 16:12-15 to suggest that the Holy Spirit will give them new extra biblical revelation. I personally don't believe that the Holy Spirit gives anyone new extra biblical revelation, my understanding is the Holy Spirit will help believers to understand the 'Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ", which He gave to the Apostle John, on the Isle of Patmos.

I believe those verses are saying that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, (keep us from falling victim to false doctrine). The Holy Spirit does give us personal insight, to help us make important decisions which effect our future. But this is not the same as receiving new eschatological revelation, concerning end time events.

I believe Jesus revealed everything He wanted us to know, in the book of revelation. I'm weary of those who claim that the Holy Spirit is imparting new extra biblical revelation to them personally. I don't think that idea can be supported by scripture.

The fall of man, effected the whole world, including the natural world, which also groans, eagerly awaiting the redemption.
The fall diminished mans intellectual capacity as well as our spiritual state, so we have to wrestle against our old nature, which still cries out to have it's way with us.

The bible says that Gods people will be changed in the blink of an eye when Jesus returns, the believers who are alive when He returns will be changed in a moment, and all those who died in Him will receive a perfect glorified sinless, immortal body. We will also receive the mind of Christ, then we will be able to understand much more than we an in this body.

 

[Scott Downey]

Some have referred to, John 16:12-15 to suggest that the Holy Spirit will give them new extra biblical revelation. I personally don't believe that the Holy Spirit gives anyone new extra biblical revelation, my understanding is the Holy Spirit will help believers to understand the 'Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ", which He gave to the Apostle John, on the Isle of Patmos.

I believe those verses are saying that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, (keep us from falling victim to false doctrine). The Holy Spirit does give us personal insight, to help us make important decisions which effect our future. But this is not the same as receiving new eschatological revelation, concerning end time events.

I believe Jesus revealed everything He wanted us to know, in the book of revelation. I'm weary of those who claim that the Holy Spirit is imparting new extra biblical revelation to them personally. I don't think that idea can be supported by scripture.

The fall of man, effected the whole world, including the natural world, which also groans, eagerly awaiting the redemption.
The fall diminished mans intellectual capacity as well as our spiritual state, so we have to wrestle against our old nature, which still cries out to have it's way with us.

The bible says that Gods people will be changed in the blink of an eye when Jesus returns, the believers who are alive when He returns will be changed in a moment, and all those who died in Him will receive a perfect glorified sinless, immortal body. We will also receive the mind of Christ, then we will be able to understand much more than we an in this body.

Yeah me too, everything we need to live the Christian life is written down for us in the scriptures. But as you can see the scriptures are not read the same way by all people, they speak of things hard to bear for some people, God will teach us from the scriptures, however when we go to be with the Lord, face to face, I believe there will be more explanations and understanding given to us then about what the scriptures truly mean and also new knowledge of other things.

 

[Scott Downey]

1 Corinthians 2:16
For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit.

The above is a very true saying...

Spiritual Wisdom​

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God [c]ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the [d]Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

This isn't my objection. My objection is that it makes God disengenous, which is another word for untrue. Jesus is not only true, but He is The Truth, you cannot separate truth and honesty from God, Who presents Himself as welcoming any who will come to Him.

"Come to Me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest", but you would have it that God didn't really mean "All who are weary and heavily burdened", what He really meant was, "all who I've chosen to come to me, not just any of you".

So the idea here is that while God is making it sound like an open invitation, according to you, it's not actually. And there are many other Scriptures like that, where without your "hidden caveats" sound like inclusive invitations, "and all who call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved", you render false, because while it sounds like a general invitation, you would claim it's not, and the reality is that there is already chosen by God a certain group who will be saved, and all the rest, forget it.

So for me it's not about fairness. We have ideas of what is fair and what isn't, and that's a balance that we all weigh, differently, and God's Way is what matters.

Truth, on the other hand, either is or isn't. Let God be true, and every man a liar.

Much love!

However you do know there is the Father, and there is the Son, and they both have their own will. They are separate while also being one.

Jesus also said this in John 6

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [a]by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Jesus acknowledges the truth here, Jesus gets his believers from God, and it is the Father who elects and predestines, giving people to the Son.

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

 

[GodsGrace]

Splitting hairs with scant fullness of truth.
People who are NOT Calvinists, JW, Mormons, think they are experts in those denominations, and scant on quoting the founders…
Suspected and have heard “religious founders” own congregation have over the decades Changed things from the original founders, but still attribute their denomination to the founders Name…

Just saying…there is AN ORDER and WAY…step by step…IN ANY Relationship…among People and including Between A man and God…
Is is not ONE Sided…both choose, both connect, both agree, both vow….or there is no relationship established….Both offer, give, take….or reject.

The Describing “words’ get all jumbled….
Grace, Faith, Works, Service, Vows, etc. Those words all have specific meanings…
And are effected at particular times in a relationship….BY TWO…BETWEEN TWO…
“not one sided”.

Men argue over…are “saved by faith ALONE…or saved by works ALONE”….baloney.

A mans SOUL is that which Gods SAVES…and it accomplished the moment God “restores” their SOUL.

However…the “courtship” comes first…getting to Know about God, and then getting to Know God…which is accomplished THROUGH Gods “advocate”….JESUS.

It is a process………just as it is with establishing ANY relationship.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

You ain't gettin' any slack from me!
I agree.
It's a relationship.
A relationship takes two.

Thanks for putting it in such an understandable way!

 

[Scott Downey]

You ain't gettin' any slack from me!
I agree.
It's a relationship.
A relationship takes two.

Thanks for putting it in such an understandable way!

Of course, man cooperates in his salvation as God changes their heart, making them open to the gospel, and then they will receive Him.
God moves in those He chose, beforehand, before they were born, and He does His work in us. He creates in us a willing heart.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Acts 16:14
Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God.
The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

Psalm 110
The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

2 The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

3 Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.

4 The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall [a]execute kings in the day of His wrath.

6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall [b]execute the heads of many countries.

7 He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

 

[marks]

However you do know there is the Father, and there is the Son, and they both have their own will. They are separate while also being one.

Jesus also said this in John 6

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [a]by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Jesus acknowledges the truth here, Jesus gets his believers from God, and it is the Father who elects and predestines, giving people to the Son.

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

I don't see how this answers my objection.

Jesus said, no one comes unless the Father draw him, but then He also said, If I be lifted up (crucified) I will draw all men to myself.

Something to note, the Father and Son will never be at cross-purposes.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't see how this answers my objection.

Jesus said, no one comes unless the Father draw him, but then He also said, If I be lifted up (crucified) I will draw all men to myself.

Something to note, the Father and Son will never be at cross-purposes.

Much love!

BINGO!

John 6:44
and
John 12:32

How to reconcile?
The reformed cannot reconcile the two because they SEEM to be in contradiction to each other.
Every other Christian seems to be able to reconcile because the bible is properly understood,
and there can be no conflict in the bible.

John 6:44
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;...

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course, man cooperates in his salvation as God changes their heart, making them open to the gospel, and then they will receive Him.
God moves in those He chose, beforehand, before they were born, and He does His work in us. He creates in us a willing heart.

I find some of the reformed to be very sneaky.
The above sounds great....but it isn't.

This is the part that isn't biblical:

GOD MOVES IN THOSE HE CHOSE, BEFOREHAND, BEFORE THEY WERE BORN....

No. Scott Downey
God did NOT choose anyone beforehand.
God NEVER chose anyone.

God DOES CHOOSE, but based on the response He receives when He gives His grace to mankind and each one
responds with either a YES or a NO.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Acts 16:14
Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God.
The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

Psalm 110
The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

2 The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

3 Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.

4 The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall [a]execute kings in the day of His wrath.

6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall [b]execute the heads of many countries.

7 He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

I fail to see the purpose of the above verses.

 

[marks]

John 6:44
and
John 12:32

How to reconcile?
The reformed cannot reconcile the two because they SEEM to be in contradiction to each other.
Every other Christian seems to be able to reconcile because the bible is properly understood,
and there can be no conflict in the bible.

This is why they routinely quote 6:44 and not 12:32. Those who do not accept dispensations likewise have trouble with this one. The simple fact is that something changed. At the cross.

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

I don't see how this answers my objection.

Jesus said, no one comes unless the Father draw him, but then He also said, If I be lifted up (crucified) I will draw all men to myself.

Something to note, the Father and Son will never be at cross-purposes.

Much love!

All drawn are all saved. Jesus is not saying all are drawn to him and only few of those drawn are saved.

 

[Scott Downey]

Drawn means to compel to come to Christ by an inward working power. The result of being drawn to Christ is salvation. Christ"s all men are all that get saved
Obviously not all men everywhere are drawn as they have no interest in Christ
Some of them hate Christ and scripture says the unbelievers have an intense dislike towards Christ.

 

[marks]

Obviously not all men everywhere are drawn as they have no interest in Christ

There must be something wrong with the way you are looking at this, since your statement above disagrees with Christ's words, that He would draw all men to Himself.

Can you tell me what your basis is for saying that for Jesus to draw a man that this means they are necessarily saved?

Much love!

 

[Ritajanice]

◄ Ephesians 1 ►
Berean Standard Bible Par ▾
Paul’s Greeting to the Ephesians
(Acts 19:8–12; Revelation 2:1–7)
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints in Ephesus,a the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings
(Romans 8:28–34)
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

11In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory.

13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

Spiritual Wisdom
(1 Corinthians 2:6–16)
15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him.

18I ask that the eyes of your heartb may be enlightened, so that you may know the hope of His calling, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and the surpassing greatness of His power to us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of His mighty strength, 20which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

22And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

 

[Ritajanice]

Drawn means to compel to come to Christ by an inward working power

Inward working power, we are drawn to Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit, wether that be inwardly or outwardly, imo,.....God is a Spirit his Love has no bounds.

He made Adam from the dust of the ground, would you say that was by an inward power or outward power....just my thoughts Brother.......lol.
Short commentary.
In addition to the outward call, there is the inward call. In theological terms, this is known as “effectual calling.” It is the internal call by which God calls His elect to Himself through the power of the Holy Spirit, changing the disposition of their hearts through regeneration.

 

[Ritajanice]

◄ John 15 ►
King James Bible Par ▾
Jesus the True Vine
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Greater Love has No One than This
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17These things I command you, that ye love one another.

The Hatred of the World
18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 22If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. 23He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 24If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 25But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.