The third way (Arminianism v Calvinism)

[RedFan]

I don't think it's worth splitting hairs over who wrote it or the language it was originally written in. The interpretation of the text in the most thing.

The interpretation of the text is Indeed the most important thing. But for that very reason, any addition of a further interpretive hurdle -- such as "Paul was a Hebrew, so his letter to the Hebrews was translated to Greek, making it even more difficult for us to translate to English" - should be of interest. That added difficulty is eliminated if the epistle was written originally in Greek.

I don't know what translation difficulties of what verses you had in mind when making your comment. Maybe we should examine them, and see if they do indeed disappear if we posit an original Greek letter.

 

[JBO]

The verse doesn't need to state the obvious. The doctrine of original sin is taught throughout the entire bible. Because Adam’s nature was corrupted by the fall—as evidenced in his alienation to God.

Actually it isn't taught anywhere in the bible.

Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.
8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.”
11 He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”
12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.”

That says what happened to Adam and Eve. It says not one word about any corruption of human nature.

Adam could never produce morally superior offspring. Human nature became corrupt in Adam and . . . this human nature which became corrupt in Adam is transmitted to posterity by natural generation. Since we all come into life as sinners, all mankind must necessarily be repugnant to God’s perfectly holy nature and be subject to his condemnation.
We therefore find Paul describing all of mankind as “by nature children of wrath” in Eph 2:3.

Ephesians 2:3 says absolutely nothing about Adam's effect on human nature.

Jesus says in Mark chapter 7: “From within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within.”

Again, all true, but nothing there even suggests that all of that is the result of Adam's sin.

Nobody is saying that Christ's atonement is not sufficient to save every single person, who ever lived. So the reason the vast majority are going to hell, is not because Christ's atonement is insufficient. It's because, only Gods elect are given the gift of His grace and the gift of faith, that is the gift of salvation. It's simply not given to all, you have no business putting God on trial and forcing Him to defend His reason for choosing some and leaving others dead in their sin.
God doesn't offer anything to anyone, He either gives you something or He doesn't give it to you. You can't show me a single verse of scripture to support this idea that God offers salvation, and it's up to the individual to reject or accept it.

Nobody chooses to follow the God they hate, because they love their sin and they are already following Satan to hell and nothing can change their minds, unless God quickens them to life and opens their eyes.

The Calvinist definition of elect is simply wrong. The concept of double predestination is an affront to God. If you would do a search on the word "whoever", you would see that following God is indeed a choice offered and not bestowed. One of the simplest verses confirming that is Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved...." It does not say "Whoever God elects and is baptized will be saved"

Christ said, "all that the Father gives Me shall come to Me and I shall lose none, because My Father is stronger than anyone, and none can snatch them out of My Fathers Hand".
Where is the part that says, you can add yourself to those the father gives Him, by your choice. I've never come across such a thing as that, because it doesn't exist.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

The simple truth is that every group, every community, every tribe, every nation on earth from the very beginning has searched far and wide to find their gods. That is the reason for all the religions on earth, for the Hinduism, for the Buddhism, for the Taoism, for the Shintoism, etc. But it is only by the written word of God that we find and see the one true God. That is the reason that God has directed us to go into all the world making disciples.

 

[Christian Soldier]

The interpretation of the text is Indeed the most important thing. But for that very reason, any addition of a further interpretive hurdle -- such as "Paul was a Hebrew, so his letter to the Hebrews was translated to Greek, making it even more difficult for us to translate to English" - should be of interest. That added difficulty is eliminated if the epistle was written originally in Greek.

I don't know what translation difficulties of what verses you had in mind when making your comment. Maybe we should examine them, and see if they do indeed disappear if we posit an original Greek letter.

I was debating the meaning of Romans 5:18 with @JBO who interprets the verse to say, that Christ died for everyone, including those He casts into hell.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

@JBO tried to convince me to accept "universalism", because the verse says "the free gift came to all men". I don't believe that universalism is biblical.

I believe the "all men" in that verse and other places where "all men" is used doesn't refer to every single person without exception. The fact that it was spoken to a Jewish audience, who at the time (believed that they were the only people God chose to save), so Paul included the "all men" to confirm that God also chose Gentiles from all tribes and tongues.

The free gift did come to "all men", and not just Jews as many wrongly believed.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Actually it isn't taught anywhere in the bible.

That says what happened to Adam and Eve. It says not one word about any corruption of human nature.

Ephesians 2:3 says absolutely nothing about Adam's effect on human nature.

Again, all true, but nothing there even suggests that all of that is the result of Adam's sin.

The Calvinist definition of elect is simply wrong. The concept of double predestination is an affront to God. If you would do a search on the word "whoever", you would see that following God is indeed a choice offered and not bestowed. One of the simplest verses confirming that is Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved...." It does not say "Whoever God elects and is baptized will be saved"

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

The simple truth is that every group, every community, every tribe, every nation on earth from the very beginning has searched far and wide to find their gods. That is the reason for all the religions on earth, for the Hinduism, for the Buddhism, for the Taoism, for the Shintoism, etc. But it is only by the written word of God that we find and see the one true God. That is the reason that God has directed us to go into all the world making disciples.

There are around 120 verses of scripture confirming that everyone is born with a sin nature. You don't inherit your sin nature after you commit your first sin. You sin because you're a sinner by nature. God hated Esau while He was still in his mother womb, God didn't have to wait for Esau to be born and begin his life long career as a sinner.

I can't believe you reject the bible doctrine of original sin, you don't see it in the bible because you approach the bible with your mind already made up. You know what you want it to say and you will twist it as much as is necessary to extract what you won't out of it.
If you were faithful, you would be conformed to Gods Word and not force Gods Word to conform to your presuppositions.

Every time the the word "whosoever" is mentioned, it refers to those who already believe, because they are the only ones who embrace the gospel message. The unbelievers always reject it because they are already unbelievers and the believers always receive it because they are already believers.

It's the same with the word "if", if you "already" believe, you shall inherit the Kingdom of God. Jesus ever said "I'm offering you salvation and I'm leaving it up to you to accept it or reject it". No, He always said "if" you believe, that refers to the present tense. Or something that is already a reality, rather than some abstract offer, which the consumer needs to examine and consider if it's worth accepting.

Your small view of God, is an affront to Him. You limit Him to your level, and you don't accept the fact that He is sovereign over every aspect of His creation, including who will be save and who will be left in their sin.
I get the sense that you're not interested in the awful truth of the matter, and I get that. Most Christians reject the bible doctrine of Gods sovereignty over all things.
I also had a problem with it for many years, until I believed what God revealed about Himself.

 

[JBO]

I was debating the meaning of Romans 5:18 with @JBO who interprets the verse to say, that Christ died for everyone, including those He casts into hell.

You think the effect of Adam's sin was for everyone. None of that nonsense about all men being limited. Apparently you think, in constrast to the statement in verse 15, that the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of Jesus Christ was not nearly so effective as the sin of Adam.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

@JBO tried to convince me to accept "universalism", because the verse says "the free gift came to all men". I don't believe that universalism is biblical.

I believe the "all men" in that verse and other places where "all men" is used doesn't refer to every single person without exception. The fact that it was spoken to a Jewish audience, who at the time (believed that they were the only people God chose to save), so Paul included the "all men" to confirm that God also chose Gentiles from all tribes and tongues.

The fact is that Romans was written to a largely Gentile congregation.

I was debating the meaning of Romans 5:18 with @JBO who interprets the verse to say, that Christ died for everyone, including those He casts into hell.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

@JBO tried to convince me to accept "universalism", because the verse says "the free gift came to all men". I don't believe that universalism is biblical.

The universalism of spirits given to men by God at or before being born is universal. Man's spirit comes from God, not anyone else. And those spirits that God gives are not dead in trespasses and sins; rather, it was alive and righteous until that first sin when one becomes dead in their trespasses and sins, not Adam's.

The comparisons presented there are speaking of the effects of Adam's disobedience and Jesus' obedience upon all men. Since all agree that the effect spoken for all men as being from Adam's disobedience is upon the newborn, then that must be the same situation for the effect spoken for all men as being from Jesus' obedience, i.e., the newborn. That is demanded by the phrasing, "as---even so".

 

[RedFan]

I was debating the meaning of Romans 5:18 with @JBO who interprets the verse to say, that Christ died for everyone, including those He casts into hell.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

@JBO tried to convince me to accept "universalism", because the verse says "the free gift came to all men". I don't believe that universalism is biblical.

I believe the "all men" in that verse and other places where "all men" is used doesn't refer to every single person without exception. The fact that it was spoken to a Jewish audience, who at the time (believed that they were the only people God chose to save), so Paul included the "all men" to confirm that God also chose Gentiles from all tribes and tongues.

The free gift did come to "all men", and not just Jews as many wrongly believed.

My apologies. I thought your interpretive question came from a translation of Hebrews, not Romans. I can see that the original language of Hebrews, be it Greek (as I suspect) or Hebrew (as you think), matters not at all to the question of whom Christ died for.

 

[Christian Soldier]

You think the effect of Adam's sin was for everyone. None of that nonsense about all men being limited. Apparently you think, in constrast to the statement in verse 15, that the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of Jesus Christ was not nearly so effective as the sin of Adam.

The fact is that Romans was written to a largely Gentile congregation.

The universalism of spirits given to men by God at or before being born is universal. Man's spirit comes from God, not anyone else. And those spirits that God gives are not dead in trespasses and sins; rather, it was alive and righteous until that first sin when one becomes dead in their trespasses and sins, not Adam's.

The comparisons presented there are speaking of the effects of Adam's disobedience and Jesus' obedience upon all men. Since all agree that the effect spoken for all men as being from Adam's disobedience is upon the newborn, then that must be the same situation for the effect spoken for all men as being from Jesus' obedience, i.e., the newborn. That is demanded by the phrasing, "as---even so".

I'm sorry to say your theology doesn't line up with what the bible says about being born with a sin nature.

There isn't a single example in the entire bible of anyone being born without inheriting Adams sin nature. This idea that we don't become dead in our trespasses and sin, until we commit our first sin, is simply not true.

I take it you hold to the man centered, works based Arminian gospel interpretation, which teaches that you save yourself by making a decision to obey the gospel and force God to accept you on your terms. The problem with this view, is it ignores that fact that the person is dead in his trespasses and sin. It suggests that spiritually dead people can discern spiritual things, even though God said we cannot.

You are born dead in your trespasses and sin, the bible is very clear about this. I'll list a few verses below to help you understand this awful truth.

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Genesis 8:21 - And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Ezekiel 28:15 - Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

1 John 1:10 - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Job 15:14-16 - What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

 

[Ritajanice]

No, I didn't change the meaning of the word at all. I simply corrected your erroneous interpretation of the verse and you don't like being corrected. The bible says "a fool hates correction, but a wise man loves you for it".

Amen!...I am open to correction as long as it’s the Spirit correcting me....pride is what we all battle with at times, I know I still do.
Only those with God's Spirit can understand the truths revealed by God, including Christ crucified for human sinfulness. Those without God's Spirit are limited to what can be observed and worked out with human reason. God's Spirit makes it possible for us to understand and believe spiritual things.


Full context here Brother...Of said scripture .


Romans 5
New International Version
Peace and Hope

5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Brakelite]

This is the crux of the matter, Arminian theology has no explanation for why perfectly intelligent people reject the free offer of eternal life in paradise and choose eternal torment in the lake of fire instead.

I don't really know what people mean by "reformed theology". The way I see things, the reformers got some stuff right, and some wrong. And in answer to the above question...or explanation you seem so perturbed over, is really quite simple. People reject the truth of the gospel because they love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. Why they choose to love evil , who knows. I guess that's just the present human condition. It's in our DNA I suppose. And everyone is unique, there can be no pat answer. To counter the human condition, God, in infinite love and mercy, made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Saviour and Lord, Substitute and Example. This saving faith comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God’s grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God’s sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God’s law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 45:22; Isa. 53; Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 33:11; 36:25-27; Hab. 2:4; Mark 9:23, 24; John 3:3-8, 16; 16:8; Rom. 3:21-26; 8:1-4, 14-17; 5:6-10; 10:17; 12:2; 2 Cor. 5:17-21; Gal. 1:4; 3:13, 14, 26; 4:4-7; Eph. 2:4-10; Col. 1:13, 14; Titus 3:3-7; Heb. 8:7-12; 1 Peter 1:23; 2:21, 22; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rev. 13:8.)

 

[JBO]

I'm sorry to say your theology doesn't line up with what the bible says about being born with a sin nature.

Your male nature is to not be monogamous. So have you been unfaithful to your wife (if you are married). Also the male nature is to be sexually active with a variety of females, married or not. So is that the case with you, are you sinful in that? Or is that a nature that you decide whether to act on? You seem to think that having the tendency to sin, means that you sin. that is not true.

And by the way, Adam was created with a sin nature. That is, he was created with the ability to obey God or not. He chose to disobey. He was not a sinner until he disobeyed. That was true for Adam, that is true for us.

There isn't a single example in the entire bible of anyone being born without inheriting Adams sin nature. This idea that we don't become dead in our trespasses and sin, until we commit our first sin, is simply not true.

Of course it is true. Adam's sin nature was given him in creation. He was given the ability to choose to obey or not to obey. Thus even though he had a sin nature, he was not a sinner until he disobeyed God. That was a sin and he became a sinner. That is the same with all of us. If that is not true, then it means that God has imputed someone else's trespasses and sins to us. God would not do that. If you think He would, then you have no real understanding of who and what God is.

I take it you hold to the man centered, works based Arminian gospel interpretation, which teaches that you save yourself by making a decision to obey the gospel and force God to accept you on your terms.

Not at all. Honestly, I don't know what an Arminian gospel interpretation is. But I am almost positive that it doesn't teach that you can save yourself. And I doubt that it teaches that you can force God to do anything. That sounds like a strawman approach for a terrible rebuttal.

The problem with this view, is it ignores that fact that the person is dead in his trespasses and sin. It suggests that spiritually dead people can discern spiritual things, even though God said we cannot.

The problem with your view is that you, apparently, do not have a clue about what it means to be dead in trespasses and sin.

You are born dead in your trespasses and sin, the bible is very clear about this. I'll list a few verses below to help you understand this awful truth.

Now that is a really silly statement. If you have no trespasses and sins, then how can you be dead in trespasses and sin?

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

That is speaking about David's mother's sin, not his. And besides if you want to take Psalms 51:5 to be literally a statement of your condition at birth, then you must also take Psalms 51:7 to be literally true as well.

Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

A little purging with hyssop and it's all taken care of. But I seriously doubt that you do that. You hold a strict observance to verse 5 and totally ignore verse 7. Really bad hermeneutics and exegesis.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Do you think God gave you a dead spirit?

Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Again, taking that to be a literal statement is really bad exegesis. I have never heard of any child speaking lies as soon as he was born. But perhaps your children are far advanced of all other's children.

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Yes, Adam was the first and he became dead in that sin. And death passed upon you, because you sinned. Your death in trespasses and sins is because you sinned.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Jn_3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. If you understood what that means, then you wouldn't think a newborn could sin.

Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The same many that were made sinners are the same many that will be made righteous. So who are the many made sinners. All agree they are the newborn babies. So then it is the newborn babies that will be made righteous. What they become later is not even being considered in Romans 5:15-19. Paul begins to address that in Romans 5:20 and beyond.

Ezekiel 28:15 - Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

That is true of everyone. If it was true of the king of Tyre, then it is certainly true of everyone else.

1 John 1:10 - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Has a newborn baby ever said he had not sinned? Clearly not. So what has that to do with a newborn baby?

Job 15:14-16 - What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Strange that you would bring that one up. You are the guys who claim that Jesus was born righteous because sin is passed through the father. But Job seems to suggest that being born of a woman is the cause. Clearly you are confused.

 

[RedFan]

Of course it is true. Adam's sin nature was given him in creation. He was given the ability to choose to obey or not to obey. Thus even though he had a sin nature, he was not a sinner until he disobeyed God. That was a sin and he became a sinner. That is the same with all of us. If that is not true, then it means that God has imputed someone else's trespasses and sins to us. God would not do that.

I disagree. I think God did exactly that. Twice. Once with imputing Adam' original sin to his progeny. Once with imputing our sin to Christ. The first was a curse on all "flesh" and the second reversed the curse.

I agree with you that we have free will and can choose either to commit or eschew sin. But the "original" sin of Adam was passed on to his progeny. That's a mainstay of Pauline theology.

 

[JBO]

I disagree. I think God did exactly that. Twice. Once with imputing Adam' original sin to his progeny. Once with imputing our sin to Christ. The first was a curse on all "flesh" and the second reversed the curse.

I agree with you that we have free will and can choose either to commit or eschew sin. But the "original" sin of Adam was passed on to his progeny. That's a mainstay of Pauline theology.

The general understanding of 2 Corinthians 5:21 is that God made Jesus Christ the sin-offering for us; in a manner similar to the OT practice of the lamb being a sin-offering. With Jesus Christ, He was the perfect sin-offering. Sin wasn't imputed to the lamb in the OT. That would not even have made any sense at all. And God didn't impute our sin to Christ. Moreover, if God had imputed our sin, any sin, to Christ, then He would not have been spotless, He would have been a sinner, and He could not have been the perfect sacrifice. It was only because He had no sin that He could take our place.

 

[RedFan]

The general understanding of 2 Corinthians 5:21 is that God made Jesus Christ the sin-offering for us; in a manner similar to the OT practice of the lamb being a sin-offering. With Jesus Christ, He was the perfect sin-offering. Sin wasn't imputed to the lamb in the OT. That would not even have made any sense at all. And God didn't impute our sin to Christ. Moreover, if God had imputed our sin, any sin, to Christ, then He would not have been spotless, He would have been a sinner, and He could not have been the perfect sacrifice. It was only because He had no sin that He could take our place.

Again I disagree. God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us.

 

[JBO]

Again I disagree.

OK.

 

[Episkopos]

Again I disagree. God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us.

That's a faulty translation. There is no "God" in the statement. That is a propagandist adulteration of the text. It reads simply "He was made to be sin by us (for us)"...actually...on our behalf... who knew no sin. So this is speaking of an injustice. God does not condone injustice, nor does He commit any injustice.......but He can transform it. God's justice is stronger than our injustice...the righteousness of God is greater than the righteousness of men (or what we think is right). Case in point...how the bible is twisted to demean God and His ways.

 

[Scott Downey]

@Christian Soldier wrote on another thread:

"Every Christian hold to one of the two views. The fact that you reject Reformed theology, means that you hold to Arminian theology.

I would be interested to hear about a third option, but I won't hold my breath as nobody has ever found it thus far. The worlds greatest theologians and bible scholars have been searching for this illusive third view for the past 500 years and they haven't found it, but let me guess you have "

I know of a third way, which was described by the Quaker founder George Fox though I do not know who else taught it. I agree with Fox who said based on John 1:9:

9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

As every man is enlightened, Calvinism is false (not purely depending on this verse) and God comes to each man at His chosen time, and the man has the chance of not quenching the Holy Spirit and open up the way for more truth to be reveled and that man is saved if he continues seeking the Light.

I have been struck how many people have said that there was a day when they may have become Christian but did not.

I read it differently.
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man

Don't read it that every man is enlightened, Look at all the dark characters causing evil in the world today, they are not enlightened by the Spirit of God, or Christ.

It is just that Christ enlightens every man He touches, spiritually. If anyone is going to enlightened, it means they were enlightened by God.

God enlightens only His people

17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your [a]understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power

 

[Scott Downey]

People who abide in darkness are not enlightened are they.
Only those who believe in Christ are enlightened,
This is how to understand verse about being enlightened

John 12
45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not [a]believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

 

[Scott Downey]

John 1:5
And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

If them that are in darkness cannot comprehend the light, then they are not enlightened.

 

[Scott Downey]

God never does call the darkness good only the light is good.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. [a]So the evening and the morning were the first day.

We are not of the DARKNESS or of the Night, we who believe are of the Day and the Light, but some are of the DARKNESS just as it is written, they are not enlightened then are they.

1 Thess 5

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

 

[RedFan]

That's a faulty translation. There is no "God" in the statement. That is a propagandist adulteration of the text. It reads simply "He was made to be sin by us (for us)"...actually...on our behalf... who knew no sin.

Well, what I said was not in quotes:

Again I disagree. God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us.

And it was not intended as a translation. It was intended to portray the verse's message. ""He was made to be sin" BY GOD. I have no doubt of that. Do you?