Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Atarah]

Two gospels. Jesus appointed Peter to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles, both with the same basic gospel message of salvation through Christ alone, with the twist that the Jews are still required to circumcise while the Gentiles are not. Is that two gospels or simply identifying that there remains a distinction between these two people groups?

 

[Atarah]

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
30For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Open your blind eyes and allow the Holy Spirit to circumcise your heart of flesh

This is about a husband and wife, two who have already been joined into one. I think you're pressing the bride thing into this verse. Everyone likes the Jewish model of the groom coming at night to take his bride... Why would Paul use a Jewish model of a wedding to teach the Gentiles about Jesus' return?

 

[David in NJ]

This is about a husband and wife, two who have already been joined into one. I think you're pressing the bride thing into this verse. Everyone likes the Jewish model of the groom coming at night to take his bride... Why would Paul use a Jewish model of a wedding to teach the Gentiles about Jesus' return?

30For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Are you able to see the Apostle Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit stating: I speak concerning Christ and the church.

 

[dad]

Where is that in scripture???

Where does it say in scripture that the seals and events in the last seven years are not the wrath of God? Your only strategy here would be to try to limit what is called the wrath of God to the very end of the tribulation or when Jesus returns. That doesn't fly.

 

[Atarah]

30For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Are you able to see the Apostle Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit stating: I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Yes. That's plain. Can you see that Paul, by the Holy Spirit, is talking about a husband and wife - two already joined - and not about two waiting to be joined?

 

[marks]

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

This is not about brides and grooms, it's about husbands and wives - those already joined. Show me one verse that clearly says the church, which is already the body of Christ, already seated with Christ in Heavenly places, is also the future bride of Christ.

Can't do it, it's not there.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Audience and context! To what audience was the book of Hebrews written? Hint: it's a trick question...
The Old Covenant was an everlasting covenant - Genesis 17:7 (NASB) I will establish My covenant between Me and you (Abram) and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you (Abram) and to your descendants after you. Their rejection of Jesus opened an opportunity for the Gentiles (for a time) to enjoy God's favor. That time will come to an end... then what?

Have you ever actually read the book of Hebrews? It says that the old covenant was made obsolete long ago when Jesus made His "once for all" sacrifice that established the new covenant and made the old covenant and its animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete. You are confusing the old covenant with the new covenant.

Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not as Jesus was prophesying to the Jews it didn't! Ask any Jew in that day . . . there was no lack of clarity,

Who are the chosen people? The elect? Israel. Who are the nations? Everyone else.

Much love!

The thing is, you are both right.
But the bride is the Gentile church.
Thus is illustrated in The book of Ruth.
The Jew is the Wayward wife.
God has blinded her for a season that the bride may be established.
The bride is removed pretrib and the purpose of the trib is to prepare the harvest of the Jew.
(Rev14)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

This is not about brides and grooms, it's about husbands and wives - those already joined. Show me one verse that clearly says the church, which is already the body of Christ, already seated with Christ in Heavenly places, is also the future bride of Christ.

Did you not keep reading there? Look at what Paul says later to sum up what he was talking about in Ephesians 5:22-31.

Ephesians 5:32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

Paul revealed the mystery of what he was talking about when talking about the relationship between a husband and wife, which was Christ and the church. Why is this still a mystery to you?

 

[marks]

The thing is, you are both right.
But the bride is the Gentile church.
Thus is illustrated in The book of Ruth.
The Jew is the Wayward wife.
God has blinded her for a season that the bride may be established.
The bride is removed pretrib and the purpose of the trib is to prepare the harvest of the Jew.
(Rev14)

I disagree. The wedding feast to come will be on earth, after Jesus returns, as He re-weds Israel, the gentiles coming as guests.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is a simile, not an equivalency.

The Bible teaches plainly that God was wed to Israel, that is, the nation in the OT that we all know exactly who it is, that God divorced Israel, the same one He married, and that He will re-wed Israel, again, that very same one to whom He was married then divorced.

No similies, no metaphors, no allegories, just the straightforward statement of prophecy. And then you have the several times in the NT that the church is compared to a bride, but is not in fact named a bride. What we are actually named is "the body of Christ".

If if you want to know what the Bible says about it, that's what it says. Would you like to examine each of these passages with me? I'm guessing you already know them, considering that you debate this point.

This is what people who want to cling to false doctrine do. When scripture is shown that contradicts their doctrine they try to say that's just a simile or just a parable and other nonsense like that. Pathetic. It doesn't matter what type of text it is, the message is clear that Paul was conveying there, which is that the church is the bride of Christ. Deny it all you want, but you clearly just believe what you want to believe and don't accept what scripture teaches.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I disagree. The wedding feast to come will be on earth, after Jesus returns, as He re-weds Israel, the gentiles coming as guests.

Much love!

Total nonsense! This is not taught anywhere in scripture. You're just making things up. You are trying to separate what the blood of Christ brought together as one (Jew and Gentile believers)! Read Matthew 22:1-13 where both Jews and Gentiles were invited to have a personal relationship with Christ. Read Ephesians 2:11-22 which talks about how the blood of Christ brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one. Your doctrine of demons is not taught anywhere in scripture. You are completely ignorant about the New Testament. You have no understanding of it whatsoever. Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
30For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Open your blind eyes and allow the Holy Spirit to circumcise your heart of flesh

Notice how he/she selectively just quoted verses 22 and 23 while apparently ignoring the rest of the chapter. That's what those who believe in false doctrines do. They cherry pick scripture while ignoring or twisting the scriptures which don't agree with what they want it to say.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I disagree. The wedding feast to come will be on earth, after Jesus returns, as He re-weds Israel, the gentiles coming as guests.

Much love!

Rev 19 the bride is referred to as the wife.
Also the dialogue in the last supper,Jesus declared that he was going to build mansions in heaven for his followers.
That dialogue and enactment mirrored the betrothal of the Jewish betrothal ceremony.
Wedding supper is in heaven. As is the consumption.
It is the POINT of the rapture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nonsense, you should just stay with what the passage itself says.

In verse 32 Paul indicates that what he talked about previously was a mystery. So, he knew it might not be clear what he was talking about when going back and forth talking about how a husband should treat his wife. He said he was talking about Christ and the church. It's very clear that he was saying that in a spiritual sense Christ is the husband and the church is his wife/bride. Very clear. Only doctrinal bias can keep someone from seeing this.

Flights of fancy do not sound interpretation make. And all the personal comments reveal you, and what's in your heart, not me. Point to the passage that says this is so. You cannot. You can only try to show a simile as an equivalency, and then complain that I won't believe you.

Your lack of discernment regarding what Ephesians 5:22-32 teaches is not my fault, it's yours.

Um . . . maybe I'm overlooking something. You do know what a simile is, and how to recognize one?

Of course I do, but you can't act like we can't use similes for doctrine. What Paul was saying in that passage is not hard to understand if you take your dispensationalist glasses off and read it objectively.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Total nonsense! This is not taught anywhere in scripture. You're just making things up. You are trying to separate what the blood of Christ brought together as one (Jew and Gentile believers)! Read Matthew 22:1-13 where both Jews and Gentiles were invited to have a personal relationship with Christ. Read Ephesians 2:11-22 which talks about how the blood of Christ brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one. Your doctrine of demons is not taught anywhere in scripture. You are completely ignorant about the New Testament. You have no understanding of it whatsoever. Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

I almost hit the like button. But, man, your attempt to totally destroy people personally is really way out there

 

[David in NJ]

Look in the mirror.

Much love!

DO you know the definition that God gave for arrogance?

I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion.
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverse mouth I hate.
Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.

Now you may be thinking = "that's you David"

GOD DISAGREES with you @marks

This is HIS definition of arrogance and His admonition to you @marks = 1 Corinthians 4:6

Now these things, brothers and sisters, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos on your account, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written,
so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

Submit to God's admonition and HE will Lift you UP out of divisive doctrines of men

 

[David in NJ]

Notice how he/she selectively just quoted verses 22 and 23 while apparently ignoring the rest of the chapter. That's what those who believe in false doctrines do. They cherry pick scripture while ignoring or twisting the scriptures which don't agree with what they want it to say.

BINGO

and thank you for your prayers as i am hated by my Brethren because i tell them the TRUTH

 

[marks]

BINGO

and thank you for your prayers as i am hated by my Brethren because i tell them the TRUTH

I don't hate you. So when you say I do you are false. I'm sorry to speak plainly! What makes discussion with you so very distasteful to me is your disdain for others, your propensity to share your many negative opinions of others as though you are the judge and your pronouncements fact. And now you've got a thread going on about the poor hateful liars boasting arrogantly against God's truth. At every turn you double down on this. Can you not see this is wrong??

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Two gospels. Jesus appointed Peter to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles, both with the same basic gospel message of salvation through Christ alone, with the twist that the Jews are still required to circumcise while the Gentiles are not. Is that two gospels or simply identifying that there remains a distinction between these two people groups?

Are you trying to say there are two gospels? There is only one gospel. One way for anyone, Jew or Gentile, to be saved. Christian Jews are NOT required to be circumcised. Where are you getting that from?