Strength and Honor: Triumphing over Feminism

[Mink57]

It is sounding like you agree with biblical patriarchy as a good standard---for the men at least.

No, I'm not.
My understanding of Biblical patriarchy is as follows:

• God reveals Himself as masculine, not feminine.
• God ordained distinct gender roles for man and woman as part of the created order.
• A husband and father is the head of his household, a family leader, provider, and protector.
• Male leadership in the home carries over into the church: only men are permitted to hold ruling positions in the church. A God-honoring society will likewise prefer male leadership in civil and other spheres.
• Since the woman was created as a helper to her husband, as the bearer of children, and as a “keeper at home”, the God-ordained and proper sphere of dominion for a wife is the household and that which is connected with the home.
• God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply” still applies to married couples.
• Christian parents must provide their children with a thoroughly Christian education, one that teaches the Bible and the biblical view of God and the world.
• Both sons and daughters are under the command of their father as long as they are under his roof or as long as they are the recipients of his provision and protection.

Biblical patriarchy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't agree with any of the above.

Men being like Jesus is what biblical patriarchy is about.

I don't agreed. Men being like Jesus is what JESUS is all about; not what biblical patriarchy is about.

 

[Wynona]

No, I'm not.
My understanding of Biblical patriarchy is as follows:

• God reveals Himself as masculine, not feminine.
• God ordained distinct gender roles for man and woman as part of the created order.
• A husband and father is the head of his household, a family leader, provider, and protector.
• Male leadership in the home carries over into the church: only men are permitted to hold ruling positions in the church. A God-honoring society will likewise prefer male leadership in civil and other spheres.
• Since the woman was created as a helper to her husband, as the bearer of children, and as a “keeper at home”, the God-ordained and proper sphere of dominion for a wife is the household and that which is connected with the home.
• God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply” still applies to married couples.
• Christian parents must provide their children with a thoroughly Christian education, one that teaches the Bible and the biblical view of God and the world.
• Both sons and daughters are under the command of their father as long as they are under his roof or as long as they are the recipients of his provision and protection.

Biblical patriarchy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't agree with any of the above.


I don't agreed. Men being like Jesus is what JESUS is all about; not what biblical patriarchy is about.

I just prefer to stick with Scripture. The specifics can look different from person to person or household to household.

 

[Mink57]

Mink57 said:
As to what's bolded, how many MEN do you think actually do that?

Not many. The faith is weakening in being taught well and being influential here in America.

My husband was not always mature. He was angry and controlling at times. But he was always committed to just me. He was always the one I was supposed to grow with, because he was willing to learn God's ways. I do see that not all men are like this.

You're right. I would even venture to say that quite a number of them are not like that.

"A whopping 53 percent of women said they divorced their spouses because of emotional or psychological abuse. This was the number one reason women gave for leaving their marriages."

They are not all unpolished diamonds. Some are just coal, because they refuse to love and fear God. Nevertheless, we must all take it on ourselves to love and fear God regardless of how others choose to act. This can cost a Godly woman her marriage, even. But our everything is in Christ, not keeping a marriage together at all costs.

Agreed. And while God "hates" divorce, I DO believe that women are not called to endure an abusive marriage or an abusive spouse. So many men have misused the Bible in order to justify their entitlement and abusiveness.

 

[Atarah]

It seems that what we struggle with most—and resist doing—is the issue of serving. The very trait we are called to be. "Have this mind in you as was also in Christ Jesus... taking on the form or character of a servant.. Therefore God exalted Him." We are created to serve but tricked into thinking we want to be like God—served. Unspeakable joy comes through obedience, through being what we were created or designed to be and do. Everything else is frustration and futility.

 

[Wynona]

It seems that what we struggle with most—and resist doing—is the issue of serving. The very trait we are called to be. "Have this mind in you as was also in Christ Jesus... taking on the form or character of a servant.. Therefore God exalted Him." We are created to serve but tricked into thinking we want to be like God—served. Unspeakable joy comes through obedience, through being what we were created or designed to be and do. Everything else is frustration and futility.

Yes.

Mark 10:43-45

43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

 

[Waiting on him]

Yes.

Mark 10:43-45

43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

I have a question, does this verse apply to the females also or is it only for the males in the church?

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
— Ephesians 4:13

 

[Wrangler]

I have a question, does this verse apply to the females also or is it only for the males in the church?

The question takes the verse out of context of a discussion of female role. "Both" is a diversion to the point.

 

[Wrangler]

This philosopher believed feminism would do more harm than good and not lead to women being happier as well as promoting mediocrity.

 

[Waiting on him]

The question takes the verse out of context of a discussion of female role. "Both" is a diversion to the point.

I understand what your stating here.

In my mind Apostle Paul makes it pretty clear there is neither male or female in the body of Christ, but outside of Christ in the carnal mind, people role play. In this carnal reality we live under the female forever remains the subordinate to the male.

 

[Mink57]

This philosopher believed feminism would do more harm than good and not lead to women being happier as well as promoting mediocrity.

Annnnnnd...your point IS...?

You keep trying (in vain) to promote the idea that Feminism has not led to women being happier. Your bias is showing, Wrangler.

The main reason that women are not happier isn't because of 'feminism' per se. It's because of some people's resistance to the fairness that feminism has tried to promote. Women STILL do most of the emotional 'load' in relationships. They even still do MOST of the childcare.

So many men don't want to pull their weight. If YOU helped create life, then YOU have SOME responsibility in caring for that life. Your 'role' does NOT begin and end with your paycheck.

 

[Wrangler]

I understand what your stating here.

In my mind Apostle Paul makes it pretty clear there is neither male or female in the body of Christ, but outside of Christ in the carnal mind, people role play. In this carnal reality we live under the female forever remains the subordinate to the male.

Not quite. We are equal in Christ but not function. A fork and spoon are equally silverware and a spoon is not subordinate to a fork - even though the fork takes the lead in most meal sequences.

 

[Wynona]

I have a question, does this verse apply to the females also or is it only for the males in the church?

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
— Ephesians 4:13

Service is important to me as a wife and for both men and women. The main way I try to apply this verse is by being willing to serve my husband at home. By not begrudging cleaning and making meals, meeting his needs in various ways, and actively seeking to improve his life.

Anyone can serve but I do believe the wife is to serve by being a companion and helpmeet to her husband (Genesis 2:18). She is to assist the husband in whatever callings he has from the Lord.

There are things husbands should do distinctly but I try to focus on the role of wives. A husband sacrifices for, protects, provides for, and cherishes his wife. He serves in marriage primarily in these ways.

In Christ we may all be one body. But each part has a different function. (1 Corinthians 12:27)

 

[Wynona]

 

[Waiting on him]

Service is important to me as a wife and for both men and women. The main way I try to apply this verse is by being willing to serve my husband at home. By not begrudging cleaning and making meals, meeting his needs in various ways, and actively seeking to improve his life.

Anyone can serve but I do believe the wife is to serve by being a companion and helpmeet to her husband (Genesis 2:18). She is to assist the husband in whatever callings he has from the Lord.

There are things husbands should do distinctly but I try to focus on the role of wives. A husband sacrifices for, protects, provides for, and cherishes his wife. He serves in marriage primarily in these ways.

In Christ we may all be one body. But each part has a different function. (1 Corinthians 12:27)

Is that a yes or a no?

 

[Wynona]

Is that a yes or a no?

A yes

 

[Waiting on him]

A yes

Okay, so in the spiritual realm beyond the veil you reach maturity and literally become a perfect man, to the fullness of the stature of Christ.

Paul is referring to this as unity in faith. Paul also states that the woman is saved in childbearing. In my mind the only way this can be reconciled is if the woman is in reference to a subordinate in the body like a new convert, male or female. We both know that some women can’t bare children.


Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
— 1 Timothy 2:15

 

[Wynona]

Okay, so in the spiritual realm beyond the veil you reach maturity and literally become a perfect man, to the fullness of the stature of Christ.

Paul is referring to this as unity in faith. Paul also states that the woman is saved in childbearing. In my mind the only way this can be reconciled is if the woman is in reference to a subordinate in the body like a new convert, male or female. We both know that some women can’t bare children.


Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
— 1 Timothy 2:15

I feel like I'm not fully understanding. My thinking is that Both Adam and Eve got demoted after sinning in the garden. But the nature of each one's punishment fits their crime. Eve is subordinate to Adam, and so women are to have this position in relation to men.

It's not just a punishment to inflict pain---thdre's a lesson in it. Eve's humble rank relative to men teaches her to overcome pride, rebellion, and being easily decieved. The childbearing part also eventually led to the birth of Christ, her redeemer. Child bearing also has a way of forcing selfishness and sinfulness out of you, if you embrace it.

Its possible that in the new heavens and the new earth, women's rank will be restored. But for now, we must take a humble position, obey our husbands, and acknowledge that Adam was created first and it was not him who was decieved by Satan in the transgression of Eden. His curse is different. We are to respect that burden.

 

[Wynona]

It's entirely possible that Adam and Eve's marriage was less structured before the curse but that does not mean much, given that we are living under the effects of the curse now.

By less structured I don't mean egalitarian. Wives represent the Church in marriage (Ephesians 5). The Church always will be under the authority of the Lord no matter what. Just like creation always is subject to God.

 

[Wynona]

My issue with feminism is not just that it's unbiblical. It's influence undermined trust in my marriage from the word 'go.'. The number one thing I was taught was not to rely on a man for survival because of the risks. But this mindset caused me to jump the gun and look for ways I was being taken advantage of rather than grow my character and work through issues with my husband. Everything could always be blamed on him and it was easy too because he did have obvious flaws. Only by rejecting feminism and learning to work on myself first did things get better. I ultimately chose to invest for better or worse. The trust that this facilitated now gives me the freedom to make big decisions in our household and have a lot of influence. It's not good to compare marriages with trust established to those without trust established. Before I was trustworthy, it appeared as if submission wasn't working out for me. But after establishing myself as fully invested despite feminist dogma, submission was fabulous.

 

[Waiting on him]

I feel like I'm not fully understanding. My thinking is that Both Adam and Eve got demoted after sinning in the garden. But the nature of each one's punishment fits their crime. Eve is subordinate to Adam, and so women are to have this position in relation to men.

It's not just a punishment to inflict pain---thdre's a lesson in it. Eve's humble rank relative to men teaches her to overcome pride, rebellion, and being easily decieved. The childbearing part also eventually led to the birth of Christ, her redeemer. Child bearing also has a way of forcing selfishness and sinfulness out of you, if you embrace it.

Its possible that in the new heavens and the new earth, women's rank will be restored. But for now, we must take a humble position, obey our husbands, and acknowledge that Adam was created first and it was not him who was decieved by Satan in the transgression of Eden. His curse is different. We are to respect that burden.

This story of Adam and Eve is about Christ. Under the veil it can’t be seen.

Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
— Genesis 5:2

If you pay attention you see the curses placed on the two observed by Cain and Able.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
— Genesis 3:16

And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
— Genesis 4:6-7

Could there be something here that’s not being seen?