It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[David in NJ]

I agree with you on everything you said here except that line about He never said pre trib rapture.

I prayed about this very thing. Lord how am I supposed to warn people to be ready for the rapture if all they say is, You didnt say it outright pre trib rapture so it aint true?
He said the truth is all there even if I didnt say pre trib rapture. There's nothing in scripture about cell phones, computers or televisions so maybe they dont believe in them also?

That aint an exact quote that was paraphrased a little but He said this to me. And I have the peace of God in my spirit on this issue. You dont have to believe me, but I know it. And whenever something is true you will have supernatural peace in your spirit and know that it is true. Paul talks about it.

Phillippians 4:
4 Always be full of joy in the Lord. I say it again—rejoice!
5 Let everyone see that you are considerate in all you do. Remember, the Lord is coming soon.[c]
6 Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done.
7 Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus..../NLT

My earth-birth was into a RCC family. (Roman Catholic Church)

My Heavenly Birth was in Jerusalem which is ABOVE, at the age of 23 - i am now 40+ years SAVED by the Blood of Christ.

In my first 10 years the Lord directed me to quite a few denominations as HE was exposing me to all the doctrines out there.
One of those doctrines which i believed for many years was pre-trib rapture.
i believed what i was told and did not question it until one day.

Then one day, the Lord opened my eyes to Matt ch24:29-31 even though i must of read that a hundred times - at least.
From that point i began reading MORE literature on pre-trib rapture and then comparing those many books to the actual scriptures.
It was a Turning Point as i sat at the Feet of JESUS on my knees praying for HIS Understanding.

My continual prayers to Him went like this:
Dear Lord Jesus, there are many doctrines and opinions out there in the churches and i only want to know Truth = YOUR TRUTH

To this Day, that is my prayer and commitment to the LORD.

After many years HE walked me thru the Scriptures by the Holy Spirit to where i am now.

This is why i can make a legal and legitimate Offer for $1,000 USD to anyone who can post just one scripture that declares:
a.) JESUS saying, "I will not permit My elect/saints/Church to suffer under the AoD"
b.) JESUS or the Apostles saying, "We(Church/Saints/Elect) will not be here when the Antichrist rises to power.
c.) JESUS or the Apostles or OT Prophecy, prophesying of more then ONE Resurrection for the Saints/Elect/Church
d.) JESUS or the Apostles saying: the Rapture PRECEEDS the Resurrection

If i had money i would up the Reward to $1,000,000.00

SHALOM

 

[David in NJ]

@MA2444

That Journey still continues and i have gained much understanding in the Scriptures and one that i quote often:

Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

The other GREAT and AWESOME TRUTH is this = God wrote a Children's Book for us = His Children
Men with paper crowns do not understand this.

 

[MA2444]

This is why i can make a legal and legitimate Offer for $1,000 USD to anyone who can post just one scripture that declares:
a.) JESUS saying, "I will not permit My elect/saints/Church to suffer under the AoD"
b.) JESUS or the Apostles saying, "We(Church/Saints/Elect) will not be here when the Antichrist rises to power.
c.) JESUS or the Apostles or OT Prophecy, prophesying of more then ONE Resurrection for the Saints/Elect/Church
d.) JESUS or the Apostles saying: the Rapture PRECEEDS the Resurrection

Maybe it will be in the next book after Revelation? Yes the one that either hasnt been written yet because it aint over yet, or it has been written and just isnt "published" yet?

I mean just look at the scriptures, Jesusus sure likes to write books! I bet he's written a lot of other books besides the bible. I've heard several different testimonies where different people mentioned the Library of Heaven, they say its huge!

And I'm guessing a lot of our questions will be answered why this and why that? Why did He make a pre trib rapture and not state it more plainly than he did in the code book He wrote for us? (the Bible).

If you think you see a wrongness in what I say about pre trib then consider this, the only thing I'm really telling people to do is to look for the Lord sooner rather than later. That's not an untruth or a sin. Right?

 

[David in NJ]

Maybe it will be in the next book after Revelation? Yes the one that either hasnt been written yet because it aint over yet, or it has been written and just isnt "published" yet?

I mean just look at the scriptures, Jesusus sure likes to write books! I bet he's written a lot of other books besides the bible. I've heard several different testimonies where different people mentioned the Library of Heaven, they say its huge!

And I'm guessing a lot of our questions will be answered why this and why that? Why did He make a pre trib rapture and not state it more plainly than he did in the code book He wrote for us? (the Bible).

If you think you see a wrongness in what I say about pre trib then consider this, the only thing I'm really telling people to do is to look for the Lord sooner rather than later. That's not an untruth or a sin. Right?

the Book of Revelation fulfilled Prophecy = Daniel 9:24

We are NOT to seek that which God has not Spoken to us through His SON

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

FEED your spirit Today in prayer to the Word on this: Revelation 1:7-8

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord,
“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

There is EXTREME DANGER even in thinking that the LORD Jesus Christ will add more scripture!!!

 

[David in NJ]

Maybe it will be in the next book after Revelation? Yes the one that either hasnt been written yet because it aint over yet, or it has been written and just isnt "published" yet?

I mean just look at the scriptures, Jesusus sure likes to write books! I bet he's written a lot of other books besides the bible. I've heard several different testimonies where different people mentioned the Library of Heaven, they say its huge!

And I'm guessing a lot of our questions will be answered why this and why that? Why did He make a pre trib rapture and not state it more plainly than he did in the code book He wrote for us? (the Bible).

If you think you see a wrongness in what I say about pre trib then consider this, the only thing I'm really telling people to do is to look for the Lord sooner rather than later. That's not an untruth or a sin. Right?

Why did He make a pre trib rapture and not state it more plainly than he did in the code book He wrote for us?

Two REASONS
#1 - God only Speaks Truth = Every word = HE never spoke pre-trib rapture = not once
#2 - 1 John 2:21 = no lie is of the truth.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You, @Douggg and the other pre-tribbers are pre-fibbers BECAUSE the SAVIOR whom we are to follow is a POST-TRIBBER.

JESUS says: I am the WAY, the Truth and the LIFE = Take up your cross and follow ME.

The WAY that JESUS leads us is HE walks us THROUGH Tribulations all the WAY, so that we can be LIKE HIM = Overcomers

SEE - I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation.
But take courage; I have overcome the world!”

Maybe he can apologize for Lot removed pretrib and his angels claiming he will come in "like manner".
Then that "fibber Jesus" , as you call him, can understand He is supposed to come after Sodom destroyed, and after the flood to gathered Lot and Noah.
Then correct his fibber angels, that His coming is actually not in "like manner" , but when all believers are beheaded, the AC is in full power, and there is no commerce at all, as you guys are constantly correcting Jesus.

 

[MA2444]

the Book of Revelation fulfilled Prophecy = Daniel 9:24

We are NOT to seek that which God has not Spoken to us through His SON

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

FEED your spirit Today in prayer and the Word on this: Revelation 1:7-8

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord,
“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

There is EXTREME DANGER even in thinking that the LORD Jesus Christ will add more scripture!!!

Are you dense? I didnt say there will be more scripture for us on earth. I'm talking about after the GT, after the millenium, and everything. It's done.

Why would Jesus stop writing books then? Do you think that there will be nothing new to learn in heaven? Do you thiink we will be Omniscient and know everything like God does? I dont think so lol!

The Lord doesnt change. He wants to study His word every day. Why would He be different when we go to heaven? We'll just get new textbooks lol. Life goes on, learning goes on.

There is EXTREME DANGER even in thinking...is what you said. Why would try to use fear as a teaching tool? You dont teach me anything and might only scare some people into thinking dont even think about pre trib. And i'm sorry brother but dont you think thats a lame tactic to try to use in teaching, unless it's all about just proving your right. Ego. Then it makes sense.

Some of the best teachers I have ever heard all say at some point, but dont believe me, go read it for yourself and decide. How come you dont do that? Because post trib has been debunked as false so daont talk about truth and then post opinion with it like it is truth also....?? That's nutty. You should rather be debating the issues on the merits of the issues and not a bunch of out of context threatening sounding scripture to....induce fear and somehow in your mind proves what you say is truth?

That's quite a game you got going there.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Who are we to tell God and demand from Him that HE did not include the white horses from Rev ch19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who are we to DARE add to God's words what HE never said = pre-trib rapture

JESUS says to us - "Take up your cross and follow ME"

The Word that was God in the beginning came down to earth = the Word became flesh

HE did this for us and HE endured the GREATEST TRIBULATION a SINLESS Man could ever experience.

Do you know what that was???

HE who knew No sin became SIN for us and went to the CROSS for us.

So you are saying Jesus sitting on a cloud, holding a sickle, not wearing a crown, not commanding an army, and no sword in his hand, is actually Jesus sitting on a white horse , with millions of white horses blackening the sky, commanding an army, with a sword in his hand, a crown on his head, and on a mission to destroy his enemy in battle, with no sickle and not ditting on a cloud?

That my friend is the absurdity of your doctrine.
Totally impossible.
If you can say the two completely different comings of Rev 14 vs Rev 19 are actually the exact same depiction, then your teachers are truly fibbers.
Amazing how that fibber deal fits a certain doctrine, as they teach using bizarre made up non biblical nonsense.

 

[David in NJ]

Maybe he can apologize for Lot removed pretrib and his angels claiming he will come in "like manner".
Then that "fibber Jesus" , as you call him, can understand He is supposed to come after Sodom destroyed, and after the flood to gathered Lot and Noah.
Then correct his fibber angels, that His coming is actually not in "like manner" , but when all believers are beheaded, the AC is in full power, and there is no commerce at all, as you guys are constantly correcting Jesus.

Lot came OUT-OF great tribulation and was Delivered from God's Wrath by the Angels = Matthew 24:29-31

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days.....He will send His angels.....and they will gather together His elect"

 

[rebuilder 454]

You, @Douggg and the other pre-tribbers are pre-fibbers BECAUSE the SAVIOR whom we are to follow is a POST-TRIBBER.

JESUS says: I am the WAY, the Truth and the LIFE = Take up your cross and follow ME.

The WAY that JESUS leads us is HE walks us THROUGH Tribulations all the WAY, so that we can be LIKE HIM = Overcomers

SEE - I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation.
But take courage; I have overcome the world!”

Read we who overcomes who in Rev.

Amazing your doctrine never goes there!
Post trib Doctrine is oblivious to the fact That the Antichrist is given power To overcome the Saints...HUH????

then it talks about The believer Overcoming The Antichrist .
It says That the believer Overcomes the Antichrist By the blood of the Lamb And the word of his testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death

Now ...that says That they are martyred Every single one Are martyred.

They all die

Remember
You heard this Bible teaching outside that postribber work book.
Show me any of your teachers that bring those verses to the table.
You will never find the truth of the Bible with that skewed teaching that is based on omission.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Lot came OUT-OF great tribulation and was Delivered from God's Wrath by the Angels = Matthew 24:29-31

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days.....He will send His angels.....and they will gather together His elect"

Total and complete opposite of what you just twisted the Bible.

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.



BOTH EXAMPLES HAVE NORMAL LIFE, AND COMMERCE AT Jesus coming, and IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO REMOVAL.

I know that destroys your doctrine, but the truth stands in your way.

 

[David in NJ]

Are you dense? I didnt say there will be more scripture for us on earth. I'm talking about after the GT, after the millenium, and everything. It's done.

Why would Jesus stop writing books then? Do you think that there will be nothing new to learn in heaven? Do you thiink we will be Omniscient and know everything like God does? I dont think so lol!

The Lord doesnt change. He wants to study His word every day. Why would He be different when we go to heaven? We'll just get new textbooks lol. Life goes on, learning goes on.

There is EXTREME DANGER even in thinking...is what you said. Why would try to use fear as a teaching tool? You dont teach me anything and might only scare some people into thinking dont even think about pre trib. And i'm sorry brother but dont you think thats a lame tactic to try to use in teaching, unless it's all about just proving your right. Ego. Then it makes sense.

Some of the best teachers I have ever heard all say at some point, but dont believe me, go read it for yourself and decide. How come you dont do that? Because post trib has been debunked as false so daont talk about truth and then post opinion with it like it is truth also....?? That's nutty. You should rather be debating the issues on the merits of the issues and not a bunch of out of context threatening sounding scripture to....induce fear and somehow in your mind proves what you say is truth?

That's quite a game you got going there.

Maybe it will be in the next book after Revelation? Yes the one that either hasnt been written yet because it aint over yet, or it has been written and just isnt "published" yet?

No a word from you stating: AFTER His Second Coming

The Lord doesnt change. He wants to study His word every day.

Continue doing this now, before you get to Heaven = you will be much wiser
BUT, if you sit at the feet of men with paper crowns, you will be lulled into believing what God NEVER said.

Why would try to use fear as a teaching tool?

From the same Spirit of Truth, that JESUS uses fear as a teaching tool!!!

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’
But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

You dont teach me anything

This is not true! What is True is that your have hardened your heart against the scriptures due to "fear of man".
Two types of fear:
a) fear/REVERENCE the Lord and we enter into LIFE and understanding = Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19
b.) 'fear man' is the same as 'respect of persons' which leads to man-made doctrines such as pre-trib

Some of the best teachers I have ever heard all say at some point,

If they speak pre-trib rapture they oppose the scriptures through the paper crowns that they wear

You should rather be debating the issues on the merits of the issues and not a bunch of out of context threatening sounding scripture

This is EXACTLY what i do EVERYTIME

pre-trib has ZERO scriptural support = ZERO

Are you dense?

 

[David in NJ]

Total and complete opposite of what you just twisted the Bible.

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.



BOTH EXAMPLES HAVE NORMAL LIFE, AND COMMERCE AT Jesus coming, and IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO REMOVAL.

I know that destroys your doctrine, but the truth stands in your way.

WOW - you cannot even SEE the scriptures that you post - WOW

 

[MA2444]

No a word from you stating: AFTER His Second Coming


Continue doing this now, before you get to Heaven = you will be much wiser
BUT, if you sit at the feet of men with paper crowns, you will be lulled into believing what God NEVER said.


From the same Spirit of Truth, that JESUS uses fear as a teaching tool!!!

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’
But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’


This is not true! What is True is that your have hardened your heart against the scriptures due to "fear of man".
Two types of fear:
a) fear/REVERENCE the Lord and we enter into LIFE and understanding = Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19
b.) 'fear man' is the same as 'respect of persons' which leads to man-made doctrines such as pre-trib


If they speak pre-trib rapture they oppose the scriptures through the paper crowns that they wear

This is EXACTLY what i do EVERYTIME

pre-trib has ZERO scriptural support = ZERO

All that have said is merely word salad and means nothing to me. I need no man to tell me what the scriptures do and dont say. I dont care how long you been reading it, you aint the Holy Spirit! and you aint Jesus. You cant compare your words with His!

It's more than reading it. When you do nothing but read it it is your carnal mind that cannot receive it for it is spiritual and the carnal man can not discern the things of the spirit. So you have to pray just as much as you read. Then it starts making sense to you.

If it is the Holy Spirits job to lead us into all truth then you must engage the Holy Spirit before you begin reading and while you are reading...

How much alone time with God to you do every day? Just Him and you, in prayer.

 

[MA2444]

WOW - you cannot even SEE the scriptures that you post - WOW

This is why you cant discuss the topic with scripture alone. You cant refute what pre trib says scripturally so you typically just start askine inane questions and demanding what you know isnt in scripture in a misguided effort to be able to say, I won. And that's all you are.

But any thinking man knows that you have not proven anything to do with post trib I used to have an ego like yours. You must be quite a bit younger than me. I'm telling you Brother, if you want to find the real truth, then engage the Holy Spirit and read the word through the spirit and not your soul. Solomon wrote about that I think.

 

[David in NJ]

All that have said is merely word salad and means nothing to me. I need no man to tell me what the scriptures do and dont say. I dont care how long you been reading it, you aint the Holy Spirit! and you aint Jesus. You cant compare your words with His!

It's more than reading it. When you do nothing but read it it is your carnal mind that cannot receive it for it is spiritual and the carnal man can not discern the things of the spirit. So you have to pray just as much as you read. Then it starts making sense to you.

If it is the Holy Spirits job to lead us into all truth then you must engage the Holy Spirit before you begin reading and while you are reading...

How much alone time with God to you do every day? Just Him and you, in prayer.

All that have said is merely word salad and means nothing to me

Absolutely True

I need no man to tell me what the scriptures do and dont say.

FALSE - and you already admitted you sit under and i qoute: "some of the best teachers"

It's more than reading it

Correct, for you need prayer and to wait on the LORD.

I dont care how long you been reading it, you aint the Holy Spirit!

And who is! For there is only One Holy Spirit of Truth

you aint Jesus.

And who is! For there is only One LORD Jesus Christ

So you have to pray just as much as you read. Then it starts making sense to you.

Correct when you add the THIRD Requirement = Submitting yourself to the Law of Christ = Prov 30:5-6 , Rev 22:18-19

If it is the Holy Spirits job to lead us into all truth then you must engage the Holy Spirit

No 'ifs' here Brother
We MUST submit to the Holy Spirit of Truth who will ONLY confirm "it is written"

When you say 'pre-trib' you are no longer submitted to the Holy Spirit of Truth for pre-trib NEVER came out of the Mouth of God

Submit yourself to the words of CHRIST and His Apostles and the OT prophets = NEVER a single pre-trib rapture

 

[gpresdo]

Two REASONS
#1 - God only Speaks Truth = Every word = HE never spoke pre-trib rapture = not once
#2 - 1 John 2:21 = no lie is of the truth.

God presents His intent many times without your expected direct address. Pre trib meaning and intent is clearly presented in scriptures.

 

[David in NJ]

God presents His intent many times without your expected direct address. Pre trib meaning and intent is clearly presented in scriptures.

Pre trib meaning and intent is clearly presented in scriptures.

If it were Truth it, God would of said it in His Word.

Can you find just one declaration of 'pre-trib' rapture? = Just one

Legal and legitimate Offer for $1,000 USD to anyone who can post just one scripture that declares:
a.) JESUS saying, "I will not permit My elect/saints/Church to suffer under the AoD"
b.) JESUS or the Apostles saying, "We(Church/Saints/Elect) will not be here when the Antichrist rises to power.
c.) JESUS or the Apostles or OT Prophecy, prophesying of more then ONE Resurrection for the Saints/Elect/Church
d.) JESUS or the Apostles saying: the Rapture PRECEEDS the Resurrection

If i had money i would up the Reward to $1,000,000.00

SHALOM only in the TRUTH = Thy word is Truth"

 

[David in NJ]

God presents His intent many times

This much you said is 100% TRUTH

Every example, scripture(s) and Individual listed below is POST-TRIB , Pre-Wrath Deliverance

Example #1 - NOAH
Example #2 - Daniel
Example #3 - Job
Example #4 - Elijah
Example #5 - John 16:33
Example #6 - Matthew chapter 24
Example #7 = Post-Tribber, the LORD Jesus Christ = our Overcomer
Example #8 - 1 Thessalonians
Example #9 - 2 Thessalonians
Example # 10 - 1 John
Example #11 - Revelation chapter 6
Example # 12 - Revelation chapter 14

And SO MUCH MORE beginning in Genesis Straight thru to Revelation

 

[David in NJ]

God presents His intent many times without your expected direct address. Pre trib meaning and intent is clearly presented in scriptures.

Post 1,499 has been updated for your Blessing in TRUTH = "Thy word is Truth"