It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Douggg]

Looks like all you're going to get is derision instead of a real answer! Too bad! People sometimes learn things when they actually examine the material, even if only to try to prove themself right.

Much love!

The Deuteronomy 30:2-6 event is the Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 event - the gathering of the elect.

Since both @Spiritual Israel and @WPM both disagree with that point, it is up to them to explain when the Deuteronomy 30:2-6 event takes place.

 

[WPM]

In 1Thessalonians 5:2-3, the world saying "peace and safety" will be because it will be thinking it has entered the messianic age, with the misconception that the Antichrist is the King of Israel messiah.

The sudden destruction that will begin, and God's wrath poured out, is when about 3 years into that false messianic age, the Antichrist (unsuspectingly, timed like a thief in the night) goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, 2Thessalonians2:4, thus triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

As a result of the Antichrist actions, in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God will have him assassinated. For a short time, the revealed man of sin's soul will be in hell, in Isaiah 14:16-20, before being brought back to life, to be the beast of Revelation.

Of whom, the statue image of the beast will be made and placed on the temple mount, and the great tribulation then begins.
----------------------------------

So it is, false messianic age.

then, transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist - triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord. (the rapture/resurrection event to happen before the beginning of the Day of the Lord)

then, the assassination of the revealed man of sin. And him being brought back to life to become the beast.

then, the statue image of the beast made and placed on the temple mount - triggering the beginning of the great tribulation.

This is the biggest load of nonsense I have ever read on this world, and I have rather a lot on here. You are exposed yourself as being blinded by the error of Pretrib. It is hard for me to take any of your posts serious after this baloney. You have no interest in learning the truth. Your mindset is: how can i make the Bible say what I want it to say? How can i justify Pretrib at any cost?

 

[WPM]

The world saying "peace and safety" will be before the beginning of the Day of the Lord. And before the beginning of the great tribulation.

I thought your "great tribulation" is before "the Day of the Lord"?

 

[marks]

The Deuteronomy 30:2-6 event is the Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 event - the gathering of the elect.

Since both @Spiritual Israel and @WPM both disagree with that point, it is up to them to explain when the Deuteronomy 30:2-6 event takes place.

And it's likewise prophesied by Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, and Isaiah, are there others? I forget! It's when Jesus returns, and regathers them to their promised land, to be redeemed, Spirit fill, Law keeping, and therefore receiving the blessings. The glorious kingdom age.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

And it's likewise prophesied by Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, and Isaiah, are there others? I forget! It's when Jesus returns, and regathers them to their promised land, to be redeemed, Spirit fill, Law keeping, and therefore receiving the blessings. The glorious kingdom age.

Much love!

Show me any land promises under the new covenant (in the NT)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

For you, I am sure it gets to be frustrating.

You don't find it to be frustrating when people have different definitions for the terms we use? It only causes confusion. Anyone can be frustrated by that because it makes communication almost impossible when we don't define the terms we're using the same way.

In my posts 1352 and 1353, I used scripture to interpret scripture.

You mean you once again tried to force unrelated scriptures to relate to each other.

The burden is now on you and @WPM to explain when Deuteronomy 30:2-8 will take place. Not only is Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 is when Deuteronomy 30:2-8 will take place, but also is in Ezekiel 39:28.

So, you don't want to explain the difference between being gathered from the earth and gather from heaven then? You take that onus off yourself and put the onus on us to prove our view as if you have no need to do that? Ridiculous. Which testament gives us the most clarity about the future, the New Testament where new future prophecies are made and where OT scriptures are quoted and explained for us, or the Old Testament?

First, admit that 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

Yes, of course it is. I said so already. This proves once again that you do not carefully read what I say. You clearly just skim over my posts and don't read them carefully at all. What does this prove?

I said that the wrath described in 1 Thess 5:9 refers to the wrath described in 1 Thess 5:2-3. Agree or not? If so, then our disagreement is not regarding 1 Thess 5:9-11 and 1 Thess 4:15-18 being related. Do you understand that? Instead, our disagreement in that case is in our interpretations of 1 Thess 5:2-3.

In 1Thessalonians 5:2-3, the world saying "peace and safety" will be because it will be thinking it has entered the messianic age, with the misconception that the Antichrist is the King of Israel messiah.

The sudden destruction that will begin, and God's wrath poured out, is when about 3 years into that false messianic age, the Antichrist (unsuspectingly, timed like a thief in the night) goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, 2Thessalonians2:4, thus triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

As a result of the Antichrist actions, in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God will have him assassinated. For a short time, the revealed man of sin's soul will be in hell, in Isaiah 14:16-20, before being brought back to life, to be the beast of Revelation.

Of whom, the statue image of the beast will be made and placed on the temple mount, and the great tribulation then begins.

LOL! This has to be one of the most ridiculous interpretations of scripture I've ever seen. Nothing you're saying here fits the context of 1 Thess 5.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

It's hard to know where to even begin to address the nonsense you posted in relation to 1 Thess 5:2-3. I guess I'll start with your understanding of unbelievers in spiritual darkness saying "peace and safety". Where does it any of the text in 1 Thess 5 talk about the conditions of the world in general? Nowhere. It's not talking about the world saying "peace and safety", it's talking about individual unbelievers who are in spiritual darkness saying "peace and safety" in the sense that they think they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath. But, they will find out otherwise when Jesus comes as a thief in the night and takes vengeance on them (2 Thess 1:7-10) after we are caught up to Him (1 Thess 4:14-5:11 is one narrative about the day Jesus comes).

You seemed to either ignore or miss the part where Paul said "they shall not escape". It seems that your understanding of the "sudden destruction" that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night on the day of the Lord is that at least some unbelievers shall escape it. Is that correct? If so, show me where Paul indicated that? If you look at how that sudden destruction that occurs on the day of the Lord is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 you should see why Paul said "they shall not escape". No mortal can escape fire coming down upon the entire earth.

You said "the Antichrist (unsuspectingly, timed like a thief in the night) goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, 2Thessalonians2:4, thus triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord.". I can't think of many things worse than attributing a scripture about Christ to an imaginary Antichrist instead, but that's what you are doing here just like you do with Daniel 9:27. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night, not some imaginary Antichrist.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

You have no idea how to properly interpret scripture with scripture and that's why all of your beliefs regarding end times doctrine are false.

Your nonsense about an imaginary Antichrist dying and being resurrected isn't even worth responding to since it's just utterly ludicrous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And it's likewise prophesied by Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, and Isaiah, are there others? I forget! It's when Jesus returns, and regathers them to their promised land, to be redeemed, Spirit fill, Law keeping, and therefore receiving the blessings. The glorious kingdom age.

Much love!

Somehow, none of the NT authors knew about this since they wrote absolutely nothing about that. How do you explain that?

As for this supposed "glorious kingdom age", what good is it when it ends up resulting in what is described in Revelation 20:7-9? How glorious can that supposed future kingdom age really be when a number as the sand of the sea decides it's not for them and rebels?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That idea, that God's cup of wrath is poured out 'during'... the "great tribulation", is another man-made idea from the Pre-trib Rapture school. God's cup of wrath is specifically poured out on the FINAL DAY of this present world, not during the "great tribulation". The previous vials are God's wrath, but the final 7th Vial is the pouring out of God's CUP of wrath, as it will end this present world.

Rev 16:15-20
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Lord Jesus said the above within the 6th Vial timing. The final 7th Vial is upcoming... which is when He will return...

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
KJV

That final 7th Vial is when God's CUP of wrath is poured out. It's the last day when that happens, the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5; 2 Peter 3:10). That is when Jesus returns.


In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul showed the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety", that "sudden destruction" will come upon them on that "day of the Lord". Can that mean the time of "great tribulation" would still be going on? Nope! All wickedness is ended on the "day of the Lord".

And not all... of those Vials of Rev.16 are about God's cup of wrath poured out on the 7th Vial.

Spoken like a true amil! Except, someow, you're not an amil. Anyway, I agree with everything you said here.

 

[Douggg]

Hello! There you have it! 1Thessalonians 4:15-18-5:11 is NOT a Pretrib passage. It is Posttrib.

How can the rapture/resurrection event be Postrib, is it is after God's wrath is poured out ?

The rapture/resurrection event is before God's wrath is poured out.

Deuteronomy 30:2-6 has absolutely nothing to do with the future return of Christ.

Deuteronomy 30:2-6 is the gathering of the elect, of the children of Israel, from the nations of the world to the land of their forefathers - Israel.

If you do not think that Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 is that gathering, then explain when you think Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place ?

 

[Douggg]

I thought your "great tribulation" is before "the Day of the Lord"?

The Day of the Lord begins before the great tribulation begins.

The Day of the Lord last for eternity and contains the great tribulation during its early stages. The great tribulation will be 1335 days long..

 

[Douggg]

You don't find it to be frustrating when people have different definitions for the terms we use? It only causes confusion. Anyone can be frustrated by that because it makes communication almost impossible when we don't define the terms we're using the same way.


You mean you once again tried to force unrelated scriptures to relate to each other.


So, you don't want to explain the difference between being gathered from the earth and gather from heaven then? You take that onus off yourself and put the onus on us to prove our view as if you have no need to do that? Ridiculous. Which testament gives us the most clarity about the future, the New Testament where new future prophecies are made and where OT scriptures are quoted and explained for us, or the Old Testament?


Yes, of course it is. I said so already. This proves once again that you do not carefully read what I say. You clearly just skim over my posts and don't read them carefully at all. What does this prove?

I said that the wrath described in 1 Thess 5:9 refers to the wrath described in 1 Thess 5:2-3. Agree or not? If so, then our disagreement is not regarding 1 Thess 5:9-11 and 1 Thess 4:15-18 being related. Do you understand that? Instead, our disagreement in that case is in our interpretations of 1 Thess 5:2-3.


LOL! This has to be one of the most ridiculous interpretations of scripture I've ever seen. Nothing you're saying here fits the context of 1 Thess 5.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

It's hard to know where to even begin to address the nonsense you posted in relation to 1 Thess 5:2-3. I guess I'll start with your understanding of unbelievers in spiritual darkness saying "peace and safety". Where does it any of the text in 1 Thess 5 talk about the conditions of the world in general? Nowhere. It's not talking about the world saying "peace and safety", it's talking about individual unbelievers who are in spiritual darkness saying "peace and safety" in the sense that they think they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath. But, they will find out otherwise when Jesus comes as a thief in the night and takes vengeance on them (2 Thess 1:7-10) after we are caught up to Him (1 Thess 4:14-5:11 is one narrative about the day Jesus comes).

You seemed to either ignore or miss the part where Paul said "they shall not escape". It seems that your understanding of the "sudden destruction" that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night on the day of the Lord is that at least some unbelievers shall escape it. Is that correct? If so, show me where Paul indicated that? If you look at how that sudden destruction that occurs on the day of the Lord is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 you should see why Paul said "they shall not escape". No mortal can escape fire coming down upon the entire earth.

You said "the Antichrist (unsuspectingly, timed like a thief in the night) goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, 2Thessalonians2:4, thus triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord.". I can't think of many things worse than attributing a scripture about Christ to an imaginary Antichrist instead, but that's what you are doing here just like you do with Daniel 9:27. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night, not some imaginary Antichrist.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

You have no idea how to properly interpret scripture with scripture and that's why all of your beliefs regarding end times doctrine are false.

Your nonsense about an imaginary Antichrist dying and being resurrected isn't even worth responding to since it's just utterly ludicrous.

explain when you think Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place ?

 

[marks]

explain when you think Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place ?

You still don't have an answer from them about that?

Here . . . I'll offer some help.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 KJV
1) And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4) If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5) And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6) And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jeremiah 31:31-36 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Ezekiel 36:24-28 KJV
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

To be regathered to their promised land in safety and obedience, never to be exiled from it again.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

The Day of the Lord begins before the great tribulation begins.

The Day of the Lord last for eternity and contains the great tribulation during its early stages. The great tribulation will be 1335 days long..

So, what name do you have for your 3rd coming before your future millennium? What biblical terms describe that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

explain when you think Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place ?

So, you expect me to address that when you don't bother addressing what I said first? That's not how this works. Address my points first and then I'll address that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You still don't have an answer from them about that?

Can you show me where he answered my questions and addressed my points first? I should be expected to address his questions and points while he can just ignore mine?

Here . . . I'll offer some help.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 KJV
1) And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4) If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5) And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6) And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jeremiah 31:31-36 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Ezekiel 36:24-28 KJV
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

To be regathered to their promised land in safety and obedience, never to be exiled from it again.

Much love!

Do you own a New Testament? Can you explain why the New Testament scriptures don't teach what you think those OT passages teach? It seems that the NT authors didn't have the same understanding of the OT as you do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Day of the Lord begins before the great tribulation begins.

The Day of the Lord last for eternity and contains the great tribulation during its early stages. The great tribulation will be 1335 days long..

Do you see the great tribulation described in these passages that specifically refer to the day of the Lord? If so, where exactly?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Based on you saying that the day of the Lord begins before the great tribulation begins, does this mean you would define the great tribulation as being the "sudden destruction" by way of fire coming down on the earth from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Deuteronomy 30:2-6 event is the Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 event - the gathering of the elect.

Since both @Spiritual Israel and @WPM both disagree with that point, it is up to them to explain when the Deuteronomy 30:2-6 event takes place.

Yes, you don't have to explain anything. Only we do. LOL. So ridiculous.

I don't see where Deuteronomy 30:2-6 says anything about the elect being gathered both from the uttermost part of the earth and the uttermost part of heaven like Mark 13:27 does. In your view there is no difference between "the uttermost part of the earth" and "the uttermost part of heaven", so you make Jesus out to be a redundant fool in what He is recorded as saying in Mark 13:27. But, 1 Thess 4:14-17 has the elect literally being gathered from both heaven and earth, so that fits what is indicated in Mark 13:27 (and, by implication, Matt 24:31). So, YOU need to explain why your doctrine doesn't agree with that.

As for Deut 30:4, that is talking about the uttermost part of the earth under heaven. So, that is referring to a gathering from earth only while Mark 13:27 (Matt 24:31) and 1 Thess 4:14-17 refer to the elect being gathered both from heaven and from earth, which is exactly what will happen when Jesus comes. The elect souls of the dead in Christ will be gathered in heaven to come with Jesus (1 Thess 4:14) and their resurrected bodies and those who are alive and remain will be gathered from the earth and caught up to meet Him in the air "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

 

[Douggg]

So, you expect me to address that when you don't bother addressing what I said first? That's not how this works. Address my points first and then I'll address that.

I have been providing proof text and extended explanations of the order of events. And have shown timeline charts for the rapture/resurrection.

So it is time for you and @WPM to do something that validates your Amil view of when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place.

 

[Douggg]

As for Deut 30:4, that is talking about the uttermost part of the earth under heaven. So, that is referring to a gathering from earth only while Mark 13:27 (Matt 24:31) and 1 Thess 4:14-17 refer to the elect being gathered both from heaven and from earth, which is exactly what will happen when Jesus comes. The elect souls of the dead in Christ will be gathered in heaven to come with Jesus (1 Thess 4:14) and their resurrected bodies and those who are alive and remain will be gathered from the earth and caught up to meet Him in the air "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

Deuteronomy 30:2-6 is the gathering of the children of Israel from all the nations to the land of Israel. Explain when that will happen. There are still Jews in the nations all around the world. So it has not happened yet.

The Jews in Deuteronomy 30:2-6 are not given new bodies. They will be gathered from the nations to the land of Israel in their existing bodies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have been providing proof text and extended explanations of the order of events.

Nothing convincing at all, though, so this doesn't mean anything to me.

And have shown timeline charts for the rapture/resurrection.

LOL. You know what I think of those, so it's hilarious that you would say this to me as if this means anything to me.

So it is time for you and @WPM to do something that validates your Amil view of when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place.

I already showed how Deut 30:2-6 does not line up with Mark 13:24-27 (Matt 24:29-31) and 1 Thess 4:14-17 and how those two passages do line up with each other. You demand that I interpret Deut 30:2-6 after you ignore and fail to address about 90% of the passages that I bring up. Read my post #1394.