Does God care more for himself than he cares for us?

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St. SteVen

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@Johann

I agree that "the many will be made righteous." (vs 19) is not automatic, nor in this lifetime.
It points to the age of restoration in which evaluation/correction/restoration/redemption will be applied to all. IMHO

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

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St. SteVen

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@Johann

I agree that "the many will be made righteous." (vs 19) is not automatic, nor in this lifetime.
It points to the age of restoration in which evaluation/correction/restoration/redemption will be applied to all. IMHO

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Two verses earlier we find this. (again, two men and their effect on humankind) the many = all

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

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J

Johann

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I agree that "the many will be made righteous." (vs 19) is not automatic, nor in this lifetime.
It points to the age of restoration in which evaluation/correction/restoration/redemption will be applied to all. IMHO
Do you believe in universal redemption?
J.
 
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Johann

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Yes, I do.

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The concept of universal redemption—the idea that Christ's sacrifice and atonement applies to all humanity and that all people will eventually be reconciled to God—has roots in the early centuries of Christian thought. However, it developed over time and was not widely accepted by the mainstream church. One of the earliest and most influential Christian thinkers associated with universal redemption was Origen of Alexandria (c. 184–253 AD).

Origen of Alexandria (c. 184–253 AD)
Origen is often considered the first prominent Christian theologian to systematically propose a form of universal redemption or universal salvation. He is known for his doctrine of apokatastasis, which refers to the eventual restoration of all creation to its original state of harmony with God. While Origen did not explicitly teach that every person would be saved, his views on universal reconciliation were foundational for later universalist thought.

In Origen’s understanding, all beings, including Satan and the fallen angels, would ultimately be restored to a relationship with God through the redemptive work of Christ. This concept is based on passages like 1 Corinthians 15:28 ("God will be all in all") and Philippians 2:10-11 ("every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord").

He writes:

“The end is always like the beginning: as there is one end of all things, so we must understand that there is one beginning of all things... and that in this end and consummation of all things, the substance of those who have been restored from evil to good may also be restored, being united to the supreme God in conformity to the beginning.”
(On First Principles, Book I, Chapter 6, Section 1)

Although Origen’s views were influential, they were controversial. His doctrine of apokatastasis was later condemned by the Fifth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople II, 553 AD), which rejected the idea that the devil and all human beings would ultimately be saved.

Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335–394 AD)
Another early writer who embraced a form of universal redemption was Gregory of Nyssa, a Cappadocian Father and a significant theologian. Gregory, while not as speculative as Origen, hinted at the possibility that all souls could eventually be restored to God. In his work On the Soul and the Resurrection, Gregory reflects on the idea that God's mercy is universal and that the purpose of punishment is ultimately remedial, leading all to repentance and salvation.

"For it is evident that God will in truth be ‘in all’ when there shall be no evil in existence... when every created being is at harmony with itself and others, and when every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."
(On the Soul and the Resurrection)

While Gregory of Nyssa did not present a fully developed universalist doctrine like Origen, he shared a vision of the eventual reconciliation of all creation with God.


The earliest significant Christian thinker to advocate for universal redemption was Origen of Alexandria, who proposed the idea that all creation, including all souls, would eventually be reconciled to God. His views were foundational to later universalist thought, though they were later deemed heretical by the official church. Gregory of Nyssa, another early proponent, expressed ideas that leaned towards universal reconciliation, though his writings were less speculative and more cautious than Origen’s. These figures played a crucial role in the early development of the doctrine of universal redemption.

The main reason why I don't hold to the ECF' as my ultimate authority brother.

J.
 

St. SteVen

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Thank you for your candid response, though I don't..
Likewise. Thanks for asking in a non-confrontational way.
I don't expect others to agree with me. I only hope to help them understand what UR is, and what it isn't.
The typical response is negative. But when I ask them about it, I find that they have false preconceptions about it. imho

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St. SteVen

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The concept of universal redemption—the idea that Christ's sacrifice and atonement applies to all humanity and that all people will eventually be reconciled to God—has roots in the early centuries of Christian thought. However, it developed over time and was not widely accepted by the mainstream church. One of the earliest and most influential Christian thinkers associated with universal redemption was Origen of Alexandria (c. 184–253 AD).
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply.

Universal Redemption was a primary doctrine in the eastern (Greek speaking) church.
The (Latin speaking) church in the west (called the mainstream church in your quote above) rejected UR.
Unfortunately the western church gave us our Bible. Bias evident.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

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St. SteVen

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Although Origen’s views were influential, they were controversial. His doctrine of apokatastasis was later condemned by the Fifth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople II, 553 AD), which rejected the idea that the devil and all human beings would ultimately be saved.
The western/Latin speaking church used their Ecumenical Councils as a witch hunt to label "heretics" and establish doctrinal control.
Fifteen anathamas were declared against Origen posthumously. To refute his teaching.


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St. SteVen

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The main reason why I don't hold to the ECF' as my ultimate authority brother.
Of course. That's reasonable.
The ECFs had biblical support for UR.
All three doctrines of the final judgement are both biblical and contradictory. IMHO

1) Damnation-ism
2) Annihilation-ism
3) Universal Redemption (UR)

Interesting that Damnation-ism and Annihilation-ism are contradictory,
but that doesn't seem to bother anyone. Curious thing.


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Johann

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"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
Just to "flesh it out"--

The quote you provided from Schaff-Herzog's Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge highlights the diversity of theological perspectives on salvation and the afterlife during the first five or six centuries of Christianity. This period was marked by significant theological development, and the universalist doctrine-that all souls would eventually be reconciled to God-was a dominant belief in several influential theological schools.

Universalism in Early Theological Schools:
According to Philip Schaff, a prominent 19th-century church historian and editor of the Schaff-Herzog encyclopedia, four of the six major theological schools in early Christianity embraced some form of universalism. These were:

Alexandria
Antioch
Caesarea

Edessa or Nisibis

This claim is important because it suggests that, at least in the first several centuries of the Church, universalist ideas were not seen as heretical but rather as viable theological positions debated among early Christian thinkers.

1. Alexandria:
The School of Alexandria, home to thinkers such as Clement of Alexandria and Origen, was a major center of early Christian intellectual thought. The universalist tendencies in this school were largely due to the influence of Origen, who advocated for the idea of apokatastasis—the restoration of all things, including all souls, to a harmonious relationship with God.

Origen (c. 184–253 AD) taught that all souls would ultimately be purified and reconciled with God, even if they underwent significant punishment or correction first. He proposed that punishment was remedial, not eternal, aiming to restore the soul to its original state.

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD), another prominent theologian from this school, suggested that God’s will to save all humanity could not be thwarted and that correction and education through divine punishment would lead to the eventual reconciliation of all souls.

In both cases, the Alexandrian school viewed God's love and justice as inseparable, meaning that eternal damnation would be inconsistent with God’s ultimate purpose of restoring creation.

2. Antioch:
The School of Antioch, although more historically known for its literal and historical method of interpreting Scripture (as opposed to the allegorical method of Alexandria), also harbored universalist ideas. Antiochian theologians, while focused on historical exegesis, did not explicitly deny the concept of universal reconciliation.

Theodore of Mopsuestia (c. 350–428 AD), a key theologian from the Antiochian school, is often regarded as a proponent of universal salvation. He emphasized the idea that Christ’s redemption was intended to save all humanity and that God’s grace would triumph over sin and death for every soul.
Although Theodore’s views were not as well-developed as Origen’s in terms of systematizing universalism, they represented a hopeful belief in God’s ultimate victory over all evil.

3. Caesarea:
The School of Caesarea was deeply influenced by Origen's teachings, particularly because one of his greatest defenders, Gregory of Nyssa, was educated and taught here. Gregory's theology is often cited as one of the most significant expressions of universalist thought among the early Church Fathers.

Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335–394 AD) did not teach that all souls would be immediately saved but held to the belief that God’s plan would ultimately result in the restoration of all things. His understanding of eschatological purification aligned with Origen's, suggesting that even the most stubborn souls would be eventually restored to God’s presence after undergoing corrective punishment.
Gregory of Nyssa’s universalism was particularly notable because he remained highly respected in the Church, despite some of his universalist leanings, showing that such views were not uniformly condemned.

4. Edessa (or Nisibis):
The School of Edessa (later relocated to Nisibis) was an important center of Syriac Christianity. Although there is less documentation on the specific teachings regarding universalism from this school, Ephrem the Syrian (c. 306–373 AD), one of its most influential figures, expressed a broad hope for divine mercy and salvation.

Ephrem the Syrian, while not a systematic theologian like Origen or Gregory, wrote hymns and poems that celebrated God’s mercy and love. His emphasis on God’s compassion toward humanity likely contributed to the school's universalist sympathies, though the exact contours of their doctrine are not as clear as those of Alexandria or Caesarea.

5. Ephesus:
The School of Ephesus is described by Schaff as teaching conditional immortality, a doctrine that stands in contrast to both eternal damnation and universalism. Conditional immortality is the belief that only the saved will live eternally, while the wicked will face annihilation or cessation of existence after judgment.

This position aligns with the view that immortality is a gift from God, not an inherent characteristic of the soul. Those who do not receive salvation will be destroyed, rather than eternally punished or reconciled.

6. Carthage (or Rome):
According to Schaff, the School of Carthage or Rome was the main proponent of endless punishment for the wicked. This became the dominant view in Western Christianity, especially through the influence of figures like Augustine of Hippo.

Augustine (354–430 AD) vigorously defended the doctrine of eternal punishment for the unrepentant. He argued that those who reject God’s grace would face everlasting torment in hell, a view that later became the orthodox position of the Roman Catholic Church.
Augustine’s theology marked a turning point in the rejection of universalism, and by the end of the 5th century, eternal damnation was more firmly entrenched in the Western tradition.

Summary of Schaff's Analysis:
Universalism was prominent in four theological schools: Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa. These schools taught that all souls would eventually be reconciled to God, either through remedial punishment or divine mercy.

Conditional immortality was held by the School of Ephesus, suggesting that only the righteous would live eternally, while the wicked would be annihilated.

Endless punishment was the doctrine of the School of Carthage or Rome, particularly associated with Augustine’s influence.
This analysis shows that universal redemption had a substantial following in the early church, especially in the Eastern theological traditions.

However, as Augustine’s teachings on eternal punishment gained prominence, universalist views became marginalized and, by the time of the 5th Ecumenical Council (553 AD), condemned.

Guess this is where their doctrine on the subject became unknown?


Doesn't mean I agree brother.

Shalom to you and family.

J.
 

St. SteVen

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Interesting that Damnation-ism and Annihilation-ism are contradictory,
but that doesn't seem to bother anyone. Curious thing.
Are the souls of the damned held in eternal torment, or are they utterly destroyed?
The Bible supports both positions. (and also UR) ???

I sometimes joke that Annihilation-ism is the gateway drug to full-blown Universalism. - LOL

I say this because the doctrinal position of Annihilation-ism is typically driven by
an aversion to meaninglessness (and sadistic quality) of eternal torment.

All three positions say something about the character of God.

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J

Johann

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Of course. That's reasonable.
The ECFs had biblical support for UR.
All three doctrines of the final judgement are both biblical and contradictory. IMHO

1) Damnation-ism
2) Annihilation-ism
3) Universal Redemption (UR)

Interesting that Damnation-ism and Annihilation-ism are contradictory,
but that doesn't seem to bother anyone. Curious thing.


[
This is how I approach my study, brother-I dig into the grammar and syntax of the Koine Greek, check my LXX, and take into account the context, including reputable secondary rabbinical writings, as well as the teachings of the Early Church Fathers. I'm not hesitant to use my exegetical commentaries to shed light on paradoxical verses.

But I cannot agree with the ECF in light of what stands written.

J.
 
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St. SteVen

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However, as Augustine’s teachings on eternal punishment gained prominence, universalist views became marginalized and, by the time of the 5th Ecumenical Council (553 AD), condemned.

Guess this is where their doctrine on the subject became unknown?
Exactly.
I never heard anything about this in the church I was raised in.
Only in the last five years or so was I informed about it.

It answered the questions I had about eternal conscious torment. (ECT)
Brought on by a family crisis of faith. A sister-in-law declared that she couldn't believe in a God that sent people to hell.
I knew all the apologetics for ECT, but they left me unsatisfied.

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Johann

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Awesome, thanks.
Do you have a link to your source? Thanks.

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Sure-
Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1908) - Available in digital archives like Google Books or Archive.org.



Philip Schaff's works on early Christianity, including his multi-volume History of the Christian Church, which covers early theological schools and doctrinal development.


The Catholic Encyclopedia and The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which also offer discussions on early theological schools and universalism.


J.
 
J

Johann

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Exactly.
I never heard anything about this in the church I was raised in.
Only in the last five years or so was I informed about it.

It answered the questions I had about eternal conscious torment. (ECT)
Brought on by a family crisis of faith. A sister-in-law declared that she couldn't believe in a God that sent people to hell.
I knew all the apologetics for ECT, but they left me unsatisfied.

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I do believe, brother, that Scripture clearly speaks of eternal damnation.

Tertullian (c. 155–c. 240 AD)
Tertullian, one of the earliest Latin theologians, was a strong proponent of eternal punishment. In his work Apology (Chapter 48), he refers to eternal fire as the fate of the unrepentant:

Quote: “After the resurrection, there will be a time appointed for judgment, and the retribution of those who have not believed will be eternal fire."
2. Clement of Rome (c. 35–99 AD)
Clement, one of the earliest Church Fathers, hints at the punishment awaiting the wicked in his First Epistle to the Corinthians (Ch. 28), writing about the consequence of sin and the judgment of God:

Quote: "Let us reflect, beloved, how the Master continually proves to us that there shall be a future resurrection, of which He has rendered the Lord Jesus Christ the first fruits by raising Him from the dead. Let us consider, beloved, how the resurrection is ever before our eyes... those who are in opposition to His will receive eternal punishment."

3. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–108 AD)
In his letters, Ignatius speaks of the danger of eternal punishment for those who do not follow Christ. In his Letter to the Ephesians (Ch. 16), he warns against heresy and sin leading to eternal separation from God:

Quote: “Those who corrupt families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil doctrine the faith of God for which Jesus Christ was crucified! He who is so defiled shall depart into unquenchable fire.”

4. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200–258 AD)
Cyprian, an influential bishop, frequently discussed eternal punishment in his writings, particularly in The Treatises of Cyprian. In Treatise XII (Ch. 3), he asserts:

Quote: "There is no salvation outside the Church. The destruction of those who are cast into eternal fire will be everlasting."

5. Lactantius (c. 250–325 AD)
In his work The Divine Institutes (Book VII, Chapter 21), Lactantius describes eternal punishment as the final fate for the unrighteous, speaking of the suffering they will endure:

Quote: “But, being awakened from the dead, they shall come into the presence of the Judge... they who shall be judged worthy of God shall receive the reward of immortality; they who shall be judged unworthy shall be consigned to everlasting punishment.”

6. Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD)
One of the most significant defenders of eternal damnation in the early Church, Augustine’s writings strongly advocate for the belief in eternal punishment. In his City of God (Book XXI, Chapter 23), he rejects the idea of universal salvation and affirms the eternal nature of punishment:

Quote: “The penalty of eternal damnation is so just that neither does the mercy of God deliver anyone from it, nor does His justice inflict it upon any who do not deserve it... The eternal punishment of the damned shall never cease."

Many of the Early Church Fathers, such as Tertullian, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Cyprian, Lactantius, and especially Augustine of Hippo, strongly supported the doctrine of eternal punishment for the wicked. Their writings were instrumental in shaping the later orthodox Christian belief in eternal damnation, which became the dominant theological stance in the Western Church, particularly through the influence of Augustine.

Source-

Tertullian
Source: Tertullian's Apology can be found in:
Tertullian, Apology and The De Spectaculis. Edited by Thomas A. Robinson. Link (Christian Classics Ethereal Library)

2. Clement of Rome
Source: Clement's First Epistle to the Corinthians is available in:
Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. In The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1. Edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson. Link (Christian Classics Ethereal Library)

3. Ignatius of Antioch
Source: Ignatius' Letters are compiled in:
Ignatius of Antioch, The Epistles of Ignatius. In The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1. Link

4. Cyprian of Carthage
Source: Cyprian's works, including Treatises, can be found in:
Cyprian, The Treatises of Cyprian. In The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 5. Link

5. Lactantius
Source: Lactantius' Divine Institutes is available in:
Lactantius, The Divine Institutes. Edited by William Fletcher. Link

6. Augustine of Hippo
Source: Augustine's City of God can be accessed in:
Augustine, The City of God. Translated by Marcus Dods. Link
Additional Reference:
The Encyclopedia of Early Christianity by Everett Ferguson provides context and discussion on the theological positions of the Early Church Fathers, including their views on eternal punishment.

So my guess is many use the writings of the ECF' very selectively. As many are reading the Scriptures very selectively.

Shalom.
J.
 
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St. SteVen

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But I cannot agree with the ECF in light of what stands written.
Where does that leave you?
One can dismiss UR on that basis, but you are left with Damnation-ism and Annihilation-ism as choices.
These two are still contradictory.

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Johann

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Where does that leave you?
One can dismiss UR on that basis, but you are left with Damnation-ism and Annihilation-ism as choices.
These two are still contradictory.

[
Where does it leave me?

You have read the ECF' on eternal damnation @St. SteVen-correct?

J.
 

St. SteVen

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So my guess is many use the writings of the ECF' very selectively. As many are reading the Scriptures very selectively.
Yes, if at all. (use of ECF' writings) Of which I knew nothing for most of my life. (never discussed at church)
Thanks again for the info.

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