Not exactly sure what you mean about Josephus filling in the evidence in the time of Christ. Could you please ask the question again but try to expand on it a little so I can follow what you are looking for. I dont want to take a chance in not addressing your question.
I abandoned my faith
- Thread starter KUWN
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MA2444
Well-Known Member
I did it by paying tithes. And after that worked just like scripture said it would I started understanding that if you act out in faith that it has results. So I started testing the edges of my boundries in faith in other ways and got results there too.
This raises a question. Faith is taking God at his word. You say you "did it by paying tithes." What passage did you use that commanded you to tithe? Or did you just decide to tithe on blind faith and it "worked."
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Scripture only says one way are we allowed to test God. It was this passage here that I used as my safeguard that it would be ok!
Malachi 3:9-11
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts..../KJV
Same passage from the NLT for clarity:
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, “I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won’t have enough room to take it in! Try it! Put me to the test! 11 Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease.[a] Your grapes will not fall from the vine before they are ripe,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies..../NLT
The tithe in the OT was the same as our Federal Income tax. The total percent given was not 10% but 23.33%. There is no NT command to tithe. If you want to give to a church. give as he has prospered you and each according to his own ability. You have been tithing for as long as you have been paying federal and state income tax.
I think if you want to give to the church, that's great. But don't try to take an OT taxation system for the priests and apply it to the Church. Paul is quite clear on the way of supporting a church.
I'm annoyed by this - and I'm not sure why.
In response to the OP, Jesus said "do you believe that I am able to do this?"/"What do you want me to do for you?"/"don't tell any one what I have done" - He would not have said these things, if who He was was not important and believing in who He was was not important and how believing in who He was was not important.
That aside Jesus also said "if you do not believe in Me, believe in My works" (my italics). Which is a valid point. What I think you are trying to do, is raise a standard of belief based on Jesus' works - which is impressive, but also in danger of changing the facts? The whole question of believing in works is a lesser standard, than the one is possible, isn't it? To begin with? What works will you add, to His works to justify the newer standard the more? You realise you need more works, than His alone, if this is your position?
I guess the reason I am annoyed, is that I don't see you pointing out your works - faith in His works is good, because it reflects the love of God; I don't see my works as reflecting the love of God, nearly as much. That said, that is perspective, not fact; so maybe I am being too cynical. I want to believe that everyone is capable of more works (so for that inspiration, I thank you).
I don't know, have I missed the point?
In response to the OP, Jesus said "do you believe that I am able to do this?"/"What do you want me to do for you?"/"don't tell any one what I have done" - He would not have said these things, if who He was was not important and believing in who He was was not important and how believing in who He was was not important.
That aside Jesus also said "if you do not believe in Me, believe in My works" (my italics). Which is a valid point. What I think you are trying to do, is raise a standard of belief based on Jesus' works - which is impressive, but also in danger of changing the facts? The whole question of believing in works is a lesser standard, than the one is possible, isn't it? To begin with? What works will you add, to His works to justify the newer standard the more? You realise you need more works, than His alone, if this is your position?
I guess the reason I am annoyed, is that I don't see you pointing out your works - faith in His works is good, because it reflects the love of God; I don't see my works as reflecting the love of God, nearly as much. That said, that is perspective, not fact; so maybe I am being too cynical. I want to believe that everyone is capable of more works (so for that inspiration, I thank you).
I don't know, have I missed the point?
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
@KUWN
Here's a question: How did you satisfy your need to confirm an evidence-based faith?
My initial reaction is to say that in the context of this topic discussion, that is NOT evidence-based faith, that is experience-based faith.
But I was anticipating that experience-based faith would figure into this somewhere.
And though you are a big fan of "fasting" and tithing, it doesn't work for everyone.
I tested God with joyous and generous giving and ended up bankrupt.
That was a dead end moment in my journey. I didn't stop giving, but I needed to do it within my God-given means.
It was damaging to my relationship with God. The religious hype could not be trusted.
Furthermore, "tithing" is a questionable practice.
[
@KUWN
Here's a question: How did you satisfy your need to confirm an evidence-based faith?
That's an interesting response.
My initial reaction is to say that in the context of this topic discussion, that is NOT evidence-based faith, that is experience-based faith.
But I was anticipating that experience-based faith would figure into this somewhere.
And though you are a big fan of "fasting" and tithing, it doesn't work for everyone.
I tested God with joyous and generous giving and ended up bankrupt.
That was a dead end moment in my journey. I didn't stop giving, but I needed to do it within my God-given means.
It was damaging to my relationship with God. The religious hype could not be trusted.
Indeed, it does raise a question.
Furthermore, "tithing" is a questionable practice.
[
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Did you bring food as your tithe?
The church told us to bring them money. And in return God would give us money.
So much money that we would not be able to contain it.
Have you run out of room to contain all the money that the church promised you?
[
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Where did you get the idea that tithing is paying your income tax? Tithtes were paid at the church,, Matthew the tax collector had his own booth outside, lol. He collected for Ceaser.
So give unto Ceaser what is Ceasers and give unto God what is God's. You cant teach me anything about tithing Brother. It's not 10% it's really 23% or whatever they say it is? Let me let you in on a not so secret Brother. When Jesus came He bought the earth and it's inhabitants, you have have been paid for with a high price so are under new management now. It isnt 10%. It all belongs to Him now.
DIdnt you give your life to the Lord? So it belongs to Him now? Ok then it is His. Either I am right or I am not.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
They should separate people in the church into two sections.
1) The tithing section, for tithers, and
2) the Caesarean section for tax payers. - LOL
[ cc: @Lambano
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Do you question God about everything? The OT system was food but we use cash now to go buy our food. First fruits? That means Gross now. DOnt pay on your net pay on your gross.
But I dont even pay my tithes to the church. Did they promise me money if I do? Lol! I go by what the word of God says, not the church. I dont give to churches. The church age is almost over and they are winding down so being greedy on their way out.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Do you tithe on the gross, or on the net?
Who gets the firstfruits? The government, or God?
I agree with @KUWN
The New Testament gives instruction for giving. (not tithing)
[
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Why not question everything?
And who is being questioned? Did God tell you that "The OT system was food but we use cash now to go buy our food."?
Or was it the church that told you that? To their obvious benefit.
So you don't bring your tithe into the storehouse? How is that obeying God?
Are you not robbing God? (according to your logic)
Where is the church that Jesus said he would build?
[
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
We're getting off-topic. @MA2444
Evidence-based faith is to prove the Christianity is the right religion for salvation.
You are claiming experience-based faith as proof.
Tithing is a very bad example for that. IMHO
Are you actually unable to contain the financial blessing that God has poured into your life?
You aren't even putting it into the storehouse as commanded.
[
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Do you need more coffee still? I already answered those questions for you. First fruits go to God and are on the gross amount. Here, I'll spll it out for you.
They used to use food, now we use money.
God wants First Fruits. The money equivilent of first fruits is the Gross amount of your earnings. So you would tithe on the gross amount and not the net amount.
And I agree that that where it used to be technically tithing it is tchnically now not tithing but giving. Do you tithe or do you give? It doesnt matter what you call it. Do you help the poor? Do you invest ina ministry anywhere? WIll you help that man who obviously needs help? That's what it's all about. Helping people.
Dont try to teach me about my my tithing and giving ok? It is a fruitless conversation for me. I give how I give and it aint really none of your beeswax. If I want to call it tithing because it gives me a baseline to work with that I can project into my expected budget....so what? Call it what you will !! you derailed your topic.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Wow man, did you wake up in a bad mood or what?
Who are you to question another believer on his giving practices and to judge him for it?
I know what happened to you! You didnt pray long enough this morning! Better go finish Brother....
Do you also question your Faith? After all, why not question everything you said....
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
LOL
Not my topic.
Plain and simple. You learned about "tithing" from the church. They lied to you. But you bought it.
And now you claim it was God who told you. - LOL
[
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I think everyone should.
To Grow in Faith... What's next?
Where are you headed? What's next for you? Discussion questions; - Where is God leading you? - What's the next step? - What is your vision for the future? [Faith vs. "the Faith" - Which one was once delivered?
- What's the difference between faith and "the Faith"? - What faith was once delivered/entrusted to us? - Was it faith, or "the Faith"? - Is faith from God? - Is "the Faith" man-made? Jude 3 KJV Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me...Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?
This is a follow-up to my topic titled: https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/faith-vs-the-faith-which-one-was-once-delivered.64372/ Are you saved by faith, or by "the Faith"? Let's discuss both sides...What becomes of our faith if the Genesis account is NOT literal?
...lost in our sin and awaiting judgment of our works. - We all fall short of the perceived standard (the glory of God) and stand condemned. - Faith in Christ can't help us, the Atonement is null and void. (as outlined above) - Where does that leave us? Alternatively: - There is anecdotal...Are we saved by certainty, or by faith? - the mystery of salvation
Faith is not required to believe a certainty. How much energy do we expend attempting to promote salvation as a certainty? All the reams of apologetics to make the mystery of faith appear to be a certainty. Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith? ]Faith and Science - BioLogos
Interesting YouTube channel brings science and faith together. This playlist has ten short videos. Each one between 2 and 4 minutes in length. Let's discuss. Thanks.Unity of the faith - at what cost?
...out across the centuries. Are we there yet? (not by a long shot) Where is the problem? Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity. - Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences? - Does the Body of Christ have room for differing...Leaving Room for Faith - why we don't know EVERYTHING
...specifics, only the moment of my release from the tyranny I had inflicted myself with. I finally realized that I needed to leave some room for faith. To live with some mystery. To admit that I didn't have ALL the answers. This follows-up on my previous topic...[
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Dont get upset so early in the morning....you wont have any left for the rest of the day!
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