There are 2 tribulation periods, the “first” is to the Jews

[Davidpt]

I think part of the confusion and error being made is because of using the term "tribulation" instead of "great tribulation" (as in Matthew 24:21).

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is setup.




View attachment 50187

Douggg, the only way you might be correct is if there is something else recorded after verse 22 but prior to verse 29, that can explain the tribulation of days. Unless you can point out what that might be, we have to assume great tribulation pertaining to verse 21 is what is meant here.

There is this after verse 22.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


Does this fit after when verses 15-21 are meaning? Or does it fit during when verses 15-21 are meaning? Imo, it fits during. And a reason or two why, would be the following.

and shall shew great signs and wonders. Now compare that with this.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


Then compare that with this.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

These verses I submitted from Revelation 13 are involving Matthew 24:15-21, are they not? You are not a Preterist. So, I know you don't take Matthew 24:15-21 to be involving 70 AD. Therefore, the only thing it could be involving is the 42 month reign of the beast. Keeping in mind as well, all the dots I connected here before I got to Revelation 13.

 

[Douggg]

These verses I submitted from Revelation 13 are involving Matthew 24:15-21, are they not? You are not a Preterist. So, I know you don't take Matthew 24:15-21 to be involving 70 AD. Therefore, the only thing it could be involving is the 42 month reign of the beast. Keeping in mind as well, all the dots I connected here before I got to Revelation 13.

Matthew 24:15-21, is talking about when the great tribulation begins (sometime in the near future before the parable of the fig tree generation passes away). Actually beginning a few months before the beast-king's rule of 42 months, and ending when that 42 months is over - at Jesus's return.

Near the end of the 42 months, there will may be some rumors spreading in Israel amongst the Jews that Jesus has returned and is some location, like a nearby desert, in a special chambers like maybe a cave. Jesus saying to them at that time, don't get caught up in any such rumors and go out to the desert to search for Him.

That instead, His return will be unmistakable, as lightning is in the sky, every eye will see Him.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Though, there are some things in the OP I might agree with, such as what I quoted above, since I too agree that Daniel 7:12 will be involving the millennium after the 2nd coming, I do not agree that the events pertaining to 70 AD involved great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Wouldn't that then mean we have to take the 'elect' meant throughout ch 24 to be meaning the unbelieving Jews? After all, doesn't verse 22 make it crystal clear that the reason these days have to be shortened is for the elect's sake? IOW, unless these days are shortened, the elect might become extinct, as in wiped off the entire planet. Can someone remind me again how many Christians were slaughtered during the events involving 70 AD? Oh, that's right, they all escaped to safety instead. I wonder why these days needed to be shortened for their sake during these events involving 70 AD?

Doesn't sound like there was a possibility to me that they might become extinct at the time unless these days are shortened. Because, after all, does it really make sense per the following passages listed below that the unbelieving Jews are meant by the elect rather than it meaning the church? No. Therefore, the church is meant by the elect in Matthew 24:22. And they weren't even remotely at risk of going extinct at the time. Will the same be true in the end of this age before it's over? That the church won't be at risk of going extinct then , either? This age isn't over yet, though. Still plenty of time for that to become a possibility. But 70 AD is over and the church was never at risk of going extinct at the time.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the Unbelieving Jews sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the unbelieving Jews.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the unbelieving Jews from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Yea, right. As if that makes sense of the text. But let's go ahead and still insist that the events involving 70 AD is what is meant by Matthew 24:21-22. Who cares if it contradicts what and who is being meant by the 'elect', right?

When you understand there are 2 tribulation periods (first to the Jew) then you will understand why during the first tribulation starting in 70 ad the Jews/saints were not delivered from persecution at that time. But in the Great Tribulation to come upon the whole world we are told Gods people shall be delivered at that time.

Daniel 12

King James Version

​

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

"the tribulation of those days" in Matthew 24:29 is referring to the first 1290 days of the 1335 day long great tribulation.

The abomination of desolation to be setup in Daniel 12:11 in the time of the end, Daniel 12:9.

Then 1290 days (the tribulation of those days ) later, Matthew 24:29 - to the sign of the Son of Man appearing in heaven, Matthew 24:30a. Jesus, sickle in hand, ready to reap the grapes of God's wrath.

View attachment 50182
Revelation 6: (Matthew 24:29-30a)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


In reaction, in Revelation 16....

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

For 45 days (1335 days-1290 days) the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus.

In Daniel 11:45, the beast king, at that time makes ready for his final stand on the temple mount.... and meet his end.


View attachment 50183

In Matthew 24:30b and Revelation 19:11-21, 1335 days from when the abomination of desolation was first setup, Jesus descends to earth, accompanied by His armies of heaven. The beast-king and the false prophet there on the temple mount will meet their end. As well as Satan's time as a terror ending, as he will be exposed (Ezekiel 28:16-19) and cast into the bottomless pit.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.




View attachment 50184

The “tribulation of those days” began when the AOD was set up in 70 ad. Per Daniel 12:11
This first tribulation is symbolically shown in Revelation as 1,260 days, or 42 months and is also referring to the “times of the Gentiles”. This first tribulation to the Jews ends at the fulness of the Gentile period, which is signified by the 6th seal signs in the sun, moon, and stars.

At the 6th seal the global Great Tribulation begins which runs to the completion of the time remaining shown to Daniel as the 1335 days.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

As to this 42 months, even if it isn't a literal 42 months, it still can't span centuries or anything like that, the fact vial 1 gets poured out on those who worship the beast during it's 42 month reign. Which means they all have to be living in the same era of time, obviously.

Let me ask this, do you take it literal that Christ's ministry was 42 months, thus 3 and 1/2 years. In the event you do, why would that 42 months be literal but the ministry of the beast wouldn't be? IOW, why did Christ get less time to provide His ministry but the beast gets far more time to provide it's? After all, what the beast does for 42 months is technically a ministry of sorts. Christ's ministry led people back to God. The beast's ministry leads people back to satan. Meaning they are initially saved but then fall away, thus are led right back to satan even though they were initially led back to God when they were saved.

During Christ's ministry miracles were being performed. During the false prophet's ministry miracles will also be being performed, except they will be lying wonders.

On a side note. It's obvious that the Amil that liked your post didn't read your post carefully enough. Since you submitted numerous things that he wouldn't be remotely agreeing with. Such as Daniel 7:12 involving a millennium after the 2nd coming. Such as the 6th seal, meaning the 7th trumpet, being when great tribulation (Daniel 12:1) begins according to your interpretation.

When you come to understand the begin point of the of the 1335 day prophecy shown in Daniel, and the end point of that prophecy, then you will conclude (Like I did) that the 42 months shown in the Revelation is symbolic of time.

The time clock started with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount in 70 ad and that time ends with the resurrection of the saints.

Daniel 12:11-13

King James Version

​

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

 

[Earburner]

Luke 21 mentions zero about any AOD. You are adding to the text since some of that is meaning what happened during the events involving 70 AD, except none of those events involved an AOD.



This couldn't possibly be correct since the 6th seal is the day of the Lord and involves the 7th trumpet and the wrath of God. The wrath of God is not during the the time of trouble, it is after. The time of trouble involves great tribulation. No way can the 6th seal, meaning the 7th trumpet, be where great tribulation fits. Great tribulation fits during the time of the 5th seal, not the 6th seal. Great tribulation fits during the time of the 6th trumpet which is what the 5th seal is involving.



I agree there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation nor a Pretrib rapture. I disagree with what you said here, though---"these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time"


Way too much to try and address in the OP, at least for me anyway.

As to this 42 months, even if it isn't a literal 42 months, it still can't span centuries or anything like that, the fact vial 1 gets poured out on those who worship the beast during it's 42 month reign. Which means they all have to be living in the same era of time, obviously.

Let me ask this, do you take it literal that Christ's ministry was 42 months, thus 3 and 1/2 years. In the event you do, why would that 42 months be literal but the ministry of the beast wouldn't be? IOW, why did Christ get less time to provide His ministry but the beast gets far more time to provide it's? After all, what the beast does for 42 months is technically a ministry of sorts. Christ's ministry led people back to God. The beast's ministry leads people back to satan. Meaning they are initially saved but then fall away, thus are led right back to satan even though they were initially led back to God when they were saved.

During Christ's ministry miracles were being performed. During the false prophet's ministry miracles will also be being performed, except they will be lying wonders.

On a side note. It's obvious that the Amil that liked your post didn't read your post carefully enough. Since you submitted numerous things that he wouldn't be remotely agreeing with. Such as Daniel 7:12 involving a millennium after the 2nd coming. Such as the 6th seal, meaning the 7th trumpet, being when great tribulation (Daniel 12:1) begins according to your interpretation.

You wrote:
"Luke 21 mentions zero about any AOD. You are adding to the text since some of that is meaning what happened during the events involving 70 AD, except none of those events involved an AOD."

Which temple??
Maybe it's simply the fact that most Christians are being led astray by "church-ianity", and are not understanding that there are six abominations against God that He "hates". Prov. 6:16-19.
However, when reading those verses, one should take notice that God edits Himself in mid-stream of the six that He hates, and then interjects a seventh abomination that He personally hates.
Can you find that seventh abomination against God the Father that affects Him personally, and very deeply?
Clue: it has to do with someone who is innocent.

Now, please see Mat. 27:11-25.
In verse 24, you shall discover who it actually was, that committed the seventh abomination against God the Father.

Even Jesus, God's Son Himself (John 2:28-21), said what that abomination was "that maketh desolate" (as how it is actually stated in KJV Daniel 11:31, 12:11).

Edit: since God did forewarn us of WHAT the abominations were that are against HIM, and not Israel, shouldn't we be paying attention?

 

[Douggg]

The “tribulation of those days” began when the AOD was set up in 70 ad. Per Daniel 12:11

No, not 70 ad.

The AoD in Daniel 12:11 is time of the end, the latter days, Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

In Daniel 10:14, the angel who visited Daniel is the one speaking in Daniel 12.

In Daniel 10:14, that angel said...
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

 

[Davidpt]

You wrote:
"Luke 21 mentions zero about any AOD. You are adding to the text since some of that is meaning what happened during the events involving 70 AD, except none of those events involved an AOD."

Which temple??
Maybe it's simply the fact that most Christians are being led astray by "church-ianity", and are not understanding that there are six abominations against God that He "hates". Prov. 6:16-19.
However, when reading those verses, one should take notice that God edits Himself in mid-stream of the six that He hates, and then interjects a seventh abomination that He personally hates.
Can you find that seventh abomination against God the Father that affects Him personally, and very deeply?
Clue: it has to do with someone who is innocent.

Now, please see Mat. 27:11-25.
In verse 24, you shall discover who it actually was, that committed the seventh abomination against God the Father.

Even Jesus, God's Son Himself (John 2:28-21), said what that abomination was "that maketh desolate" (as how it is actually stated in KJV Daniel 11:31, 12:11).

Edit: since God did forewarn us of WHAT the abominations were, that are against HIM, and not Israel, shouldn't we be paying attention?

If I'm understanding you somewhat correctly, I can see that being applicable to what Matthew 24:15 records, but not what Luke 21:20 records. IOW, Luke 21:20 is involving a literal temple, meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed. While Matthew 24:15 is involving the temple that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is involving, except there is no way in a million years that the temple meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a literal brick and mortar temple. It's not meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed, nor is it meaning a rebuilt one in the future. It appears to be meaning the following temple.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

No, not 70 ad.

The AoD in Daniel 12:11 is time of the end, the latter days, Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

That time began with the destruction of the Temple Jesus and his apostles were looking at with their own eyes. ( the AOD)

Luke 21:23-24

King James Version

​

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, (of Israel) and wrath upon this people.(the Jews/saints)
24 And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”(Dan. 11:33)

Same prophecy shown in Daniel….

Daniel 11:31-35

King James Version

​

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. ( 70 ad.)
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.(the saints)
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. (Not 31/2 years)
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.”

So that prophecy is not about a short 31/2 year period, that is what throws most people off.

 

[Earburner]

If I'm understanding you somewhat correctly, I can see that being applicable to what Matthew 24:15 records, but not what Luke 21:20 records. IOW, Luke 21:20 is involving a literal temple, meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed. While Matthew 24:15 is involving the temple that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is involving, except there is no way in a million years that the temple meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a literal brick and mortar temple. It's not meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed, nor is it meaning a rebuilt one in the future. It appears to be meaning the following temple.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Yes, you are somewhat correct.

Jesus' reply, as to a sign that the Pharisees asked of him, was very direct. In John 2:18-21, Jesus was speaking about the temple of His mortal, flesh and "blood" body that was going to be destroyed, but would be resurrected back to New Life, and thus He would become forever part man.

So, in relation to Prov. 6:17, what kind of blood did Jesus have, and that it should be shed by sinful hands, for God's forgiveness of sin?
Was that not an "abomination" against God, for him to see His Son be tormented and destroyed?
Yes! It was "THE abomination that maketh desolate".
And....if you can digest it, past the religious narrative of church-ianity, you will know that all who were present at Jesus' cross, did indeed "see the abomination that maketh desolate".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If I'm understanding you somewhat correctly, I can see that being applicable to what Matthew 24:15 records, but not what Luke 21:20 records. IOW, Luke 21:20 is involving a literal temple, meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed. While Matthew 24:15 is involving the temple that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is involving, except there is no way in a million years that the temple meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a literal brick and mortar temple. It's not meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed, nor is it meaning a rebuilt one in the future. It appears to be meaning the following temple.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Have you figured out yet what Jesus meant by indicating that fleeing would be difficult for pregnant women and nursing mothers and why it would be difficult in winter or on the Sabbath if He was not speaking in a literal sense?

And, have you figured out yet how the disciples could have possibly known what He was talking about if He said "let those in Judea flee to the mountains" and "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days!" two different times in the Olivet Discourse, as you believe?

 

[covenantee]

If I'm understanding you somewhat correctly, I can see that being applicable to what Matthew 24:15 records, but not what Luke 21:20 records. IOW, Luke 21:20 is involving a literal temple, meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed. While Matthew 24:15 is involving the temple that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is involving, except there is no way in a million years that the temple meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a literal brick and mortar temple. It's not meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed, nor is it meaning a rebuilt one in the future. It appears to be meaning the following temple.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

There's no reference to a temple in either Matthew 24:15 or Luke 21:20.

Matthew 24:15 refers to "the holy place", and Luke 21:20 identifies it as "Jerusalem", which was known from Biblical antiquity as the holy city.

Thus the two verses corroborate one another in identifying the (Roman) armies, which were the abomination causing desolation, advancing on and occupying Jerusalem.

 

[Davidpt]

Have you figured out yet what Jesus meant by indicating that fleeing would be difficult for pregnant women and nursing mothers and why it would be difficult in winter or on the Sabbath if He was not speaking in a literal sense?

And, have you figured out yet how the disciples could have possibly known what He was talking about if He said "let those in Judea flee to the mountains" and "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days!" two different times in the Olivet Discourse, as you believe?

Have you figured out why, if the Discourse is involving events beginning with His ascension through His return, and that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that involves have to undeniably be fulfilled before He can return, as to why Jesus excluded that from the Discourse entirely? It might be different if Preterists are correct that the Discourse is not looking beyond 70 AD. In that case 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that involves would be irrelevant for certain. But you and I both know that isn't true, that the Discourse is not looking beyond 70 AD. How can anyone argue that what 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is involving, that it is not involving abominations?

AS to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, as long as something recorded in at least one of those chapters support 70 AD and what all happened, that should be sufficient. Luke 21:20 supports what happened in 70 AD. Matthew 24: and Mark 13 don't because, for one, those accounts are involving great tribulation. And that we are told that it is for the elect's sake that those days shall be shortened. Whoever we take the elect to be meaning in Matthew 24:22 we have to take them to be meaning the elect in Matthew 24:31. Therefore, the elect ,meant in Matthew 24:22 have to be meaning the church since the church is meant in verse 31. And the fact the church escaped to safety in the first century prior to 70 AD, the church was never at any time in any danger of being wiped off the face of the planet.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


How can---there should no flesh be saved--not mean as in they could be wiped off the planet entirely unless the days are shortened? How then could it be for the church's sake that these days are shortened if the church was never in any danger whatsoever of being wiped off the face of the earth, the fact the church fled to safety instead?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Have you figured out why, if the Discourse is involving events beginning with His ascension through His return, and that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that involves have to undeniably be fulfilled before He can return, as to why Jesus excluded that from the Discourse entirely?

LOL. Are we just going to ask questions back and forth without answering any of them? Should I assume that you have no answers to my questions then since you didn't even attempt to answer them? You also never answer the question of why Matthew and Mark would have failed to record Jesus's answer to the first question the disciples' asked.

As for 2 Thess 2:4, my understanding of what that involves relates directly to the falling away from the faith that Paul described and to the rest of the chapter. So, I believe Matthew 24:9-13 and Matthew 24:23-26 relates directly to 2 Thess 2:3-12. I see Matthew 24:15-22 as being parallel to Luke 21:20-24a which was fulfilled in 70 AD and then there is "the times of the Gentiles" which follows that. So, you are missing that there is "the times of the Gentiles" between Matthew 24:22 and Matthew 24:29.

It might be different if Preterists are correct that the Discourse is not looking beyond 70 AD. In that case 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that involves would be irrelevant for certain. But you and I both know that isn't true, that the Discourse is not looking beyond 70 AD. How can anyone argue that what 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is involving, that it is not involving abominations?

How can you argue that what occurred in 70 AD didn't involve abominations? There are similarities between what happened in 70 AD on a local scale and what will happen on a global scale when Jesus returns in the future.

AS to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, as long as something recorded in at least one of those chapters support 70 AD and what all happened, that should be sufficient.

How convenient for you to believe that. I don't buy that at all. There is no reason whatsoever for Matthew and Mark to not have recorded Jesus's answer to the disciples' first question. And you certainly have never provided a good reason for that.

Luke 21:20 supports what happened in 70 AD. Matthew 24: and Mark 13 don't because, for one, those accounts are involving great tribulation.

You don't think Luke 21:20-24a involves great tribulation?

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

And that we are told that it is for the elect's sake that those days shall be shortened. Whoever we take the elect to be meaning in Matthew 24:22 we have to take them to be meaning the elect in Matthew 24:31.

The context is different in each verse. Just like in Luke 21:20-24a, the context is in relation to an event in Jerusalem and Judea in particular, and, like, Luke 21:25-28, Matthew 24:29-31 refers to a global event.

Therefore, the elect ,meant in Matthew 24:22 have to be meaning the church since the church is meant in verse 31.

Nope. The elect in Matthew 24:22 refer to the elect in Judea. It says "let them in Judea flee to the mountains", not "let them in all the world flee to the mountains".

And the fact the church escaped to safety in the first century prior to 70 AD, the church was never at any time in any danger of being wiped off the face of the planet.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

If only you would look at the context, you could see He was talking about Judea there, not the whole world.

How can---there should no flesh be saved--not mean as in they could be wiped off the planet entirely unless the days are shortened? How then could it be for the church's sake that these days are shortened if the church was never in any danger whatsoever of being wiped off the face of the earth, the fact the church fled to safety instead?

How can you try to say that Matthew 24:15-22 refers to the whole world when it never refers to the whole world, yet you deny that 2 Peter 3:10-12 refers to the destruction of the world even though it specifically refers to the destruction of the earth?

 

[Timtofly]

Which day is the Lord's day that you are talking about?
1. The Jewish Sabbath observance?
2. Sunday observance by church-ianity?
3. The 24 hour Day of Jesus' visible and Glorious return?
4. A 1000 years of Christ reigning on earth?

I understand it to be #3, KJV Luke 17:28-30.
[28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed [from heaven].
See also 2 Thes. 1:7-10; 2 Peter 3:10.

The Day God rested and generations on earth happened. Genesis 2:4

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"

The first Day of the Lord included 6 days of creation and a thousand years of rest letting the earth do what it was created to do. There was no rebellion, not even by Satan for the first Day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3 compares our thousand years to the Day of the Lord. John writes that Jesus will reign on the earth for the last thousand years of current existence.

There are 2 parts to the Commandment:

Remember the Sabbath Day, that first thousand year period.


Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work.

I think every period of a thousand years is a Lord's Day. I don't think God will let sin and death keep this earth in bondage for more than 6 millennia, give or take the exactness of God's time. I think that the Law was just a type and shadow of better things to come.

Hebrews 1:2

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."

This covers the last 2 millennia.

Some verses in Scripture are not limited to just a 24 hour context.

 

[Timtofly]

Time according to men for BC and AD is divided at the point of Jesus' death.
Therefore, in the moments just before His death, it was the time of the end of the year 1.0 BC.
In the moments soon after His death, it was the beginning of year 1.0 AD.
So then, in the "midst" of a prophetic week there is 3.5 yrs. + 3.5 yrs.= 7.0 years.

Jesus confirmed the (New) covenant with many for ONE prophetic week of 7.0 years.

Beginning with Jesus' baptism, in the year of 3.5 BC., for 3.5 years both John and Jesus confirmed the (New) covenant with the disciples in the flesh**, and then for the remaining 3.5 years, after Jesus' death and resurrection, by His Spirit, He continued confirming the (New) covenant towards the "Early Church", of which He completed in the year of 3.5 AD.

**Note: many are not aware that the ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus in the flesh, was a Joint Ministry, according to Zech. 4:14.
John's ministry was for 6 mos. and Jesus' ministry was for 3.0 years, which is a total of 3.5 years to Jesus' death and resurrection.
Therefore, the above math for 3.5 years of Jesus' ministry in the flesh, is actually the combination of their two ministries, being 6 mos. for John + 3 years for Jesus= 3.5 years. Both were "anointed" by the Holy Spirit of God (Zech.4:14). John, upon his physical birth (Luke 1:15), and Jesus, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God.

What Calendar confirms that the Cross was the start?

The "Catholic calendar" erroneously places the death at 33AD, so the birth of Jesus is the dividing point.

If you are correct, then it should actually be 1994 and not 2024.

 

[Timtofly]

Verse 26 deals with things that take place after the first 69 weeks.

And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26

The two things that are mentioned in verse 26 are:

• Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
• the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Messiah cut off - 33 AD
City and Sanctuary destroyed - 70 AD


As of this point in the prophecy, the 70th week has not begun.


The people of the prince who is to come refer to the Romans.

The prince who is to come is therefore from the region of Rome.

Jesus is not the prince who is to come.

Jesus is Messiah the Prince.

The prince who is to come refers to someone in the future who will confirm a covenant with many for 1 week (7 Years); this will be when the 70th week begins.

You don't think Jesus will ever return to the earth?

The Jews started a civil war and caused the destruction of their own country.

Jesus is the 70th week. 3.5 years as Messiah, and 3.5 years as the Prince to come. The Messiah part has been finished. The Prince part over His people, Israel, is yet to happen.

 

[rwb]

That is not the point. The point is the OT. Prophecies are about Jesus and John the baptist, not the church. John 5:39; Isa. 40:3-5; Mal. 4:5.

John the Baptist was not the only prophecies of Old about Jesus. The prophet also foretells of the virgin Mary who would be the one to conceive and bear a son whose name would be called Immanuel, or God with us. The timing for the advent of Christ cannot begin with her because it doesn't fit Daniel's prophecy. Neither does John the Baptist.

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23 (KJV) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.