There are 2 tribulation periods, the “first” is to the Jews

[David in NJ]

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)

This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events.

Then at the point of the 6th seal being loosed, this would begin the time of trouble such as the world has never seen, (Daniel 12:1); or the wrath of the Lamb/God beginning to be poured out on the Gentile Nations. (Rev. 6:17)

Many confuse these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time.


So in a nut shell you have the begin point of the tribulation of “those days” (days of vengeance and wrath upon the Jews) starting at 70 ad. as Jesus said and then running-------------->>>all the way to “after the tribulations of those days” confirmed by the 6th seal signs in scripture (sun, moon, stars) And then the beginning of God’s wrath being poured out on the entire Gentile world, or a time of trouble such as the world has never seen. All these things can be confirmed for by a careful study of scripture.

the tribulation of those days have not yet occurred Jerusalem, the Jews and the world/Gentiles.

that mini tribulation was Judgment that JESUS prophesied in Matt 23:37-39 and continues into Matt chapter 24 AND JESUS gives us the FULL Picture of when this will be FULFILLED = Daniel Aod

 

[Earburner]

Here are the dates for when the three Kings decreed and re-issued: BC 538 Cyrus decree, BC 520 Darius re-issued, BC 457 Artaxerxes.

You said in your post #398: "Artaxerxes ratified the decree again in his seventh year. According to the Hebrew calendar, this date was 457 BC, and Ezra says it happened on the “first day of the first month in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes.” Now, when we count forward 483 years from 1 Nisan 457 BC, it comes out at 1 Nisan AD 27 - Jesus' public ministry."
> I agree with you, except that in my calculation, I was going backwards in time from the 70th week of the total 490 years, to bring us to the actual year of the giving of the commandment to restore/rebuild.

The point I was making, is about when Jesus was crucified in the midst of the 70th week.
The joint ministry of John and Jesus was for 3.5 years. John's ministry was the literal beginning of the 70th week. Jesus' ministry began in the day of his baptism by John.

After John's death of 6 mos. into the beginning 70th week, Jesus continued on with his ministry for 3.0 years, upto his own mortal death and resurrection, in the midst of the 70th week.

Since most all of Christianity counts time by the Gregorian Calendar, we all do know that the words: "after (his) death", is abbreviated as "AD". As a result, while Jesus was alive on the cross, it was literally the last day of the year 1.0 BC., and then upon his death it was literally the beginning of the recording of time in "AD", being that of the first day of the year 1.0 AD.
Conclusion:
1. The first 3.5 years of the 70th week was in the time of BC.
2. The latter 3.5 years of the 70th week was/is in the time of AD.

Therefore, at the end of the 70th week is the total sum of 490 years. But, since Jesus was cut off in the midst of that last 7.0 year week, one might think that the latter 3.5 years are not to be counted for the calculation that determines when the commandment was given to rebuild the temple and Jerusalem.
490 years minus 3.5 years= 486.5 years.

But, if we consider that the whole 7 year period of the 70th week is to be calculated, we would calculate it as 490 years minus 7.0 years= 483 years, which would reveal that it is indeed the time of the giving of the commandment by Artexerxes.

 

[David in NJ]

You said in your post #398: "Artaxerxes ratified the decree again in his seventh year. According to the Hebrew calendar, this date was 457 BC, and Ezra says it happened on the “first day of the first month in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes.” Now, when we count forward 483 years from 1 Nisan 457 BC, it comes out at 1 Nisan AD 27 - Jesus' public ministry."
> I agree with you, except that in my calculation, I was going backwards in time from the 70th week of the total 490 years, to bring us to the actual year of the giving of the commandment to restore/rebuild.

The point I was making, is about when Jesus was crucified in the midst of the 70th week.
The joint ministry of John and Jesus was for 3.5 years. John's ministry was the literal beginning of the 70th week. Jesus' ministry began in the day of his baptism by John.

After John's death of 6 mos. into the beginning 70th week, Jesus continued on with his ministry for 3.0 years, upto his own mortal death and resurrection, in the midst of the 70th week.

Since most all of Christianity counts time by the Gregorian Calendar, we all do know that the words: "after (his) death", is abbreviated as "AD". As a result, while Jesus was alive on the cross, it was literally the last day of the year 1.0 BC., and then upon his death it was literally the beginning of the recording of time in "AD", being that of the first day of the year 1.0 AD.
Conclusion:
1. The first 3.5 years of the 70th week was in the time of BC.
2. The latter 3.5 years of the 70th week was/is in the time of AD.

Therefore, at the end of the 70th week is the total sum of 490 years. But, since Jesus was cut off in the midst of that last 7.0 year week, one might think that the latter 3.5 years are not to be counted for the calculation that determines when the commandment was given to rebuild the temple and Jerusalem.
490 years minus 3.5 years= 486.5 years.

But, if we consider that the whole 7 year period of the 70th week is to be calculated, we would calculate it as 490 years minus 7.0 years= 483 years, which would reveal that it is indeed the time of the giving of the commandment by Artexerxes.

The point I was making, is about when Jesus was crucified in the midst of the 70th week.

Excellent Point and 100% TRUTH according to Daniel chapter 9

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

the tribulation of those days have not yet occurred Jerusalem, the Jews and the world/Gentiles.

I disagree, it began when the Temple Mount and Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army in 70ad and it runs all the way to the fulness of the Gentiles….

Luke 21:24
And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Jews/saints being scattered to the Nations and persecuted from Nation to Nation was to last many days and is not a short 3 1/2 year period as many suppose.

Daniel 11:33
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

 

[Earburner]

Although I know John the Baptist was the forerunner of Christ, I don't believe he shared in the ministry with Christ. I believe the two anointed ones of Zech, the two olive branches to be God the Father in Christ and the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist was a human messenger of Christ, another prophet of Christ. But JTB being naturally born could not share in the work that was ordained of Christ alone. JTB would be the first to bear witness of Christ, because Jesus said, "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." It was by His works, through the power of the Holy Spirit that bear witness for who Jesus is.

I see that you are spinning around the concept of John and Jesus being a joint ministry, hoping to not agree with it, but fearing that you should not deny it.

Though you know the scriptures as much as I, you must consider that Zech. 4:14 is specific about only two "anointed" beings as possibilities:
1. We have the two unknown witnesses in Rev., but as to what their witness shall be, we don't know, other than that of the Gospel message, which has been preached by the many, many witnesses during these past 2000 years.
2. John the baptist, being the witness of who Jesus is, through the Holy Spirit, that was within him while in his mother's womb. Luke 1:15.
And Jesus, being the witness of who God the Father is, having been conceived by the Holy Spirit.

As for #2, after John and Jesus, there shall be none equal or Greater.
And yes, John the Baptist (having the permanent indwelling of the HS) was one of the many, that were bodily resurrected, soon after Jesus died his mortal death on the cross.
Mat. 27:50-54.

 

[rwb]

You said in your post #398: "The ratified the decree again in his seventh year. According to the Hebrew calendar, this date was 457 BC, and Ezra says it happened on the “first day of the first month in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes.” Now, when we count forward 483 years from 1 Nisan 457 BC, it comes out at 1 Nisan AD 27 - Jesus' public ministry."
> I agree with you, except that in my calculation, I was going backwards in time from the 70th week of the total 490 years, to bring us to the actual year of the giving of the commandment to restore/rebuild.

The point I was making, is about when Jesus was crucified in the midst of the 70th week.
The joint ministry of John and Jesus was for 3.5 years. John's ministry was the literal beginning of the 70th week. Jesus' ministry began in the day of his baptism by John.

After John's death of 6 mos. into the beginning 70th week, Jesus continued on with his ministry for 3.0 years, upto his own mortal death and resurrection, in the midst of the 70th week.

Since most all of Christianity counts time by the Gregorian Calendar, we all do know that the words: "after (his) death", is abbreviated as "AD". As a result, while Jesus was alive on the cross, it was literally the last day of the year 1.0 BC., and then upon his death it was literally the beginning of the recording of time in "AD", being that of the first day of the year 1.0 AD.
Conclusion:
1. The first 3.5 years of the 70th week was in the time of BC.
2. The latter 3.5 years of the 70th week was/is in the time of AD.

Therefore, at the end of the 70th week is the total sum of 490 years. But, since Jesus was cut off in the midst of that last 7.0 year week, one might think that the latter 3.5 years are not to be counted for the calculation that determines when the commandment was given to rebuild the temple and Jerusalem.
490 years minus 3.5 years= 486.5 years.

But, if we consider that the whole 7 year period of the 70th week is to be calculated, we would calculate it as 490 years minus 7.0 years= 483 years, which would reveal that it is indeed the time of the giving of the commandment by Artexerxes.

How do you prove the timing leads to the ministry of John the Baptist, since the prophesy says nothing at all about him?

Ezra 1:2-3 (KJV) Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.

The house of the Lord was interrupted and could not be completed until the reign of King Darius. After appealing to the King, the decree made by King Cyrus was re-issued by Darius and the house of the Lord in Jerusalem was completed during his reign.

Ezra 4:23-24 (KJV) Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power. Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.

Ezra 6:1 (KJV) Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon.

Ezra 6:3 (KJV) In the first year of Cyrus the king the same Cyrus the king made a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem, Let the house be builded, the place where they offered sacrifices, and let the foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits;

Ezra 6:8 (KJV) Moreover I make a decree what ye shall do to the elders of these Jews for the building of this house of God: that of the king's goods, even of the tribute beyond the river, forthwith expences be given unto these men, that they be not hindered.

Ezra 6:11-12 (KJV) Also I have made a decree, that whosoever shall alter this word, let timber be pulled down from his house, and being set up, let him be hanged thereon; and let his house be made a dunghill for this. And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed.

Ezra 6:15 (KJV) And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.

The house of the Lord was finished, but the city and streets still lay in ruins in the days of Artaxerxes. The walls and gates were still broken down. The same decree re-issued by Artaxerxes made no mention of building the house, since it had already been completed in the days of Darius. Under Ezra the first of the 70 year captives was permitted to return to Jerusalem, led by Ezra. Ezra was not sent to build the house of God. He was sent to assure that care and worship in the house of God was according to the Levitical Laws.

Ezra 7:21-26 (KJV) And I, even I Artaxerxes the king, do make a decree to all the treasurers which are beyond the river, that whatsoever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, shall require of you, it be done speedily, Unto an hundred talents of silver, and to an hundred measures of wheat, and to an hundred baths of wine, and to an hundred baths of oil, and salt without prescribing how much. Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons? Also we certify you, that touching any of the priests and Levites, singers, porters, Nethinims, or ministers of this house of God, it shall not be lawful to impose toll, tribute, or custom, upon them. And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not. And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.

Nehemiah 1:1-4 (KJV) The words of Nehemiah the son of Hachaliah. And it came to pass in the month Chisleu, in the twentieth year, as I was in Shushan the palace, That Hanani, one of my brethren, came, he and certain men of Judah; and I asked them concerning the Jews that had escaped, which were left of the captivity, and concerning Jerusalem. And they said unto me, The remnant that are left of the captivity there in the province are in great affliction and reproach: the wall of Jerusalem also is broken down, and the gates thereof are burned with fire. And it came to pass, when I heard these words, that I sat down and wept, and mourned certain days, and fasted, and prayed before the God of heaven,

Nehemiah, the cupbearer of the King requested leave to go to Jerusalem that he may know of those of the remnant that had escaped and to search out the city of Jerusalem to see what the needs of the city might be. There is no mention of building the house of God in the days of Artaxerxes. Nehemiah's concern was for re-building the walls and the gates therein, to protect the city and newly re-built house of God from being destroyed by all the enemies surrounding them.

Nehemiah 2:4-7 (KJV) Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven. And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it. And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time. Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah;

Nehemiah 2:8 (KJV) And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.

 

[David in NJ]

I disagree, it began when the Temple Mount and Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army in 70ad and it runs all the way to the fulness of the Gentiles….

Luke 21:24
And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Jews/saints being scattered to the Nations and persecuted from Nation to Nation was to last many days and is not a short 3 1/2 year period as many suppose.

Daniel 11:33
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

That was a limited "tribulation" time for the Jews who rejected their MESSIAH and were Judged for it.

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, https://biblehub.com/nkjv/matthew/24.htm#footnotespestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

That was a limited "tribulation" time for the Jews who rejected their MESSIAH and were Judged for it.

Well that first tribulation to the Jews has been going on ever since Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed. Both the scriptures and history prove Gods words to be true about the Jews being scattered to the nations and persecuted from Nation to Nation.

Do you remember the Holocaust? Or Oct. 7th? Or all the antisemitic rhetoric coming out of the UN and the liberal leftist media these days? That is just more proof this time of tribulation and persecution of the Jews is still ongoing.

 

[David in NJ]

Well that first tribulation to the Jews has been going on ever since Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed. Both the scriptures and history prove Gods words to be true about the Jews being scattered to the nations and persecuted from Nation to Nation.

Do you remember the Holocaust? Or Oct. 7th? Or all the antisemitic rhetoric coming out of the UN and the liberal leftist media these days? That is just more proof this time of tribulation and persecution of the Jews is still ongoing.

CORRECT

and these many tribulations are gaining momentum for the Great Tribulation = Zechariah 14:1-2

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

[rwb]

I see that you are spinning around the concept of John and Jesus being a joint ministry, hoping to not agree with it, but fearing that you should not deny it.

Though you know the scriptures as much as I, you must consider that Zech. 4:14 is specific about only two "anointed" beings as possibilities:
1. We have the two unknown witnesses in Rev., but as to what their witness shall be, we don't know, other than that of the Gospel message, which has been preached by the many, many witnesses during these past 2000 years.
2. John the baptist, being the witness of who Jesus is, through the Holy Spirit, that was within him while in his mother's womb. Luke 1:15.
And Jesus, being the witness of who God the Father is, having been conceived by the Holy Spirit.

As for #2, after John and Jesus, there shall be none equal or Greater.
And yes, John the Baptist (having the permanent indwelling of the HS) was one of the many, that were bodily resurrected, soon after Jesus died his mortal death on the cross.
Mat. 27:50-54.

The problem for me is that I don't believe you prove what you allege from the Word of God. The two anointed ones IMO are the two witnesses. They are two olive trees, symbolizing the Church of Old Covenant made manifest through the Law and Prophets that foretell of the Messiah who was to come in the power of the Father. The two candlesticks, symbolizing the Church of the New Covenant manifesting Christ Jesus our Lord through the Gospel sent out in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 11:4 (KJV) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:11-14 (KJV) Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

I don't deny the greatness of John the Baptist, but Jesus calls him another in a long line of prophets. But, according to Jesus he that is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than he. Being the forerunner for Christ, JTB turned many Jewish hearts to Jesus.

Luke 7:27-28 (KJV) This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Luke 1:13-17 (KJV) But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

 

[Earburner]

How do you prove the timing leads to the ministry of John the Baptist, since the prophesy says nothing at all about him?

Ezra 1:2-3 (KJV) Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.

The house of the Lord was interrupted and could not be completed until the reign of King Darius. After appealing to the King, the decree made by King Cyrus was re-issued by Darius and the house of the Lord in Jerusalem was completed during his reign.

Ezra 4:23-24 (KJV) Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power. Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.

Ezra 6:1 (KJV) Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon.

Ezra 6:3 (KJV) In the first year of Cyrus the king the same Cyrus the king made a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem, Let the house be builded, the place where they offered sacrifices, and let the foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits;

Ezra 6:8 (KJV) Moreover I make a decree what ye shall do to the elders of these Jews for the building of this house of God: that of the king's goods, even of the tribute beyond the river, forthwith expences be given unto these men, that they be not hindered.

Ezra 6:11-12 (KJV) Also I have made a decree, that whosoever shall alter this word, let timber be pulled down from his house, and being set up, let him be hanged thereon; and let his house be made a dunghill for this. And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed.

Ezra 6:15 (KJV) And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.

The house of the Lord was finished, but the city and streets still lay in ruins in the days of Artaxerxes. The walls and gates were still broken down. The same decree re-issued by Artaxerxes made no mention of building the house, since it had already been completed in the days of Darius. Under Ezra the first of the 70 year captives was permitted to return to Jerusalem, led by Ezra. Ezra was not sent to build the house of God. He was sent to assure that care and worship in the house of God was according to the Levitical Laws.

Ezra 7:21-26 (KJV) And I, even I Artaxerxes the king, do make a decree to all the treasurers which are beyond the river, that whatsoever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, shall require of you, it be done speedily, Unto an hundred talents of silver, and to an hundred measures of wheat, and to an hundred baths of wine, and to an hundred baths of oil, and salt without prescribing how much. Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons? Also we certify you, that touching any of the priests and Levites, singers, porters, Nethinims, or ministers of this house of God, it shall not be lawful to impose toll, tribute, or custom, upon them. And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not. And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.

Nehemiah 1:1-4 (KJV) The words of Nehemiah the son of Hachaliah. And it came to pass in the month Chisleu, in the twentieth year, as I was in Shushan the palace, That Hanani, one of my brethren, came, he and certain men of Judah; and I asked them concerning the Jews that had escaped, which were left of the captivity, and concerning Jerusalem. And they said unto me, The remnant that are left of the captivity there in the province are in great affliction and reproach: the wall of Jerusalem also is broken down, and the gates thereof are burned with fire. And it came to pass, when I heard these words, that I sat down and wept, and mourned certain days, and fasted, and prayed before the God of heaven,

Nehemiah, the cupbearer of the King requested leave to go to Jerusalem that he may know of those of the remnant that had escaped and to search out the city of Jerusalem to see what the needs of the city might be. There is no mention of building the house of God in the days of Artaxerxes. Nehemiah's concern was for re-building the walls and the gates therein, to protect the city and newly re-built house of God from being destroyed by all the enemies surrounding them.

Nehemiah 2:4-7 (KJV) Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven. And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it. And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time. Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah;

Nehemiah 2:8 (KJV) And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.

Zech. 4
[11] Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed that stand by [for] the LORD of the whole earth.

The two olive branches are the persons of John the Baptist and Jesus.

The two golden pipes is the Holy Spirit within them both.

The golden oil are the words of the Holy Spirit.

 

[rwb]

Zech. 4
[11] Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed that stand by [for] the LORD of the whole earth.

The Church, consisting of all who have been anointed through the Spirit stand by/for the Lord of the whole earth.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (KJV) Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Davidpt]

To prove this point, in scripture we see the millennium or thousand year reign of Christ is shown as "a season and a time" in Daniel 7:12. So if "a season and a time" is shown as "a thousand years", then “a time, times and half a time” would suggest an even longer period of time; not a short period of time like a short 42 month period. Scriptures also confirm this is cannot be the case as shown in Daniel 12:11-13.

Though, there are some things in the OP I might agree with, such as what I quoted above, since I too agree that Daniel 7:12 will be involving the millennium after the 2nd coming, I do not agree that the events pertaining to 70 AD involved great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Wouldn't that then mean we have to take the 'elect' meant throughout ch 24 to be meaning the unbelieving Jews? After all, doesn't verse 22 make it crystal clear that the reason these days have to be shortened is for the elect's sake? IOW, unless these days are shortened, the elect might become extinct, as in wiped off the entire planet. Can someone remind me again how many Christians were slaughtered during the events involving 70 AD? Oh, that's right, they all escaped to safety instead. I wonder why these days needed to be shortened for their sake during these events involving 70 AD?

Doesn't sound like there was a possibility to me that they might become extinct at the time unless these days are shortened. Because, after all, does it really make sense per the following passages listed below that the unbelieving Jews are meant by the elect rather than it meaning the church? No. Therefore, the church is meant by the elect in Matthew 24:22. And they weren't even remotely at risk of going extinct at the time. Will the same be true in the end of this age before it's over? That the church won't be at risk of going extinct then , either? This age isn't over yet, though. Still plenty of time for that to become a possibility. But 70 AD is over and the church was never at risk of going extinct at the time.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the Unbelieving Jews sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the unbelieving Jews.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the unbelieving Jews from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Yea, right. As if that makes sense of the text. But let's go ahead and still insist that the events involving 70 AD is what is meant by Matthew 24:21-22. Who cares if it contradicts what and who is being meant by the 'elect', right?

 

[Earburner]

The Church, consisting of all who have been anointed through the Spirit stand by/for the Lord of the whole earth.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (KJV) Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Nice try. If we are to interpret Zech. 4:14 that way, then why did you neglect to include the 144,000 of OC. Israel, who lived in faith of "the promise that was to come".
John 5
[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[rwb]

Nice try. If we are to interpret Zech. 4:14 that way, then why did you neglect to include the 144,000 of OC. Israel, who lived in faith of "the promise that was to come".
John 5
[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Why would you think they are not included?

 

[Earburner]

The problem for me is that I don't believe you prove what you allege from the Word of God. The two anointed ones IMO are the two witnesses. They are two olive trees, symbolizing the Church of Old Covenant made manifest through the Law and Prophets that foretell of the Messiah who was to come in the power of the Father. The two candlesticks, symbolizing the Church of the New Covenant manifesting Christ Jesus our Lord through the Gospel sent out in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 11:4 (KJV) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:11-14 (KJV) Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

I don't deny the greatness of John the Baptist, but Jesus calls him another in a long line of prophets. But, according to Jesus he that is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than he. Being the forerunner for Christ, JTB turned many Jewish hearts to Jesus.

Luke 7:27-28 (KJV) This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Luke 1:13-17 (KJV) But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

To be "anointed", is to have the Holy Spirit of God. Of all people in both the OC and the NC., only John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit while in his mother's womb, and Jesus, as we all know, was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God. One can not get anymore anointed than that.
As the scriptures reveal, John was the witness of Who Jesus is, and Jesus is the witness of Who God the Father is.

 

[Earburner]

Why would you think they are not included?

That is not the point. The point is the OT. Prophecies are about Jesus and John the baptist, not the church. John 5:39; Isa. 40:3-5; Mal. 4:5.

 

[Douggg]

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)

This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events.

"the tribulation of those days" in Matthew 24:29 is referring to the first 1290 days of the 1335 day long great tribulation.

The abomination of desolation to be setup in Daniel 12:11 in the time of the end, Daniel 12:9.

Then 1290 days (the tribulation of those days ) later, Matthew 24:29 - to the sign of the Son of Man appearing in heaven, Matthew 24:30a. Jesus, sickle in hand, ready to reap the grapes of God's wrath.


Revelation 6: (Matthew 24:29-30a)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


In reaction, in Revelation 16....

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

For 45 days (1335 days-1290 days) the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus.

In Daniel 11:45, the beast king, at that time makes ready for his final stand on the temple mount.... and meet his end.




In Matthew 24:30b and Revelation 19:11-21, 1335 days from when the abomination of desolation was first setup, Jesus descends to earth, accompanied by His armies of heaven. The beast-king and the false prophet there on the temple mount will meet their end. As well as Satan's time as a terror ending, as he will be exposed (Ezekiel 28:16-19) and cast into the bottomless pit.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[Davidpt]

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)

Luke 21 mentions zero about any AOD. You are adding to the text since some of that is meaning what happened during the events involving 70 AD, except none of those events involved an AOD.

This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events.

Then at the point of the 6th seal being loosed, this would begin the time of trouble such as the world has never seen, (Daniel 12:1); or the wrath of the Lamb/God beginning to be poured out on the Gentile Nations. (Rev. 6:17)

This couldn't possibly be correct since the 6th seal is the day of the Lord and involves the 7th trumpet and the wrath of God. The wrath of God is not during the the time of trouble, it is after. The time of trouble involves great tribulation. No way can the 6th seal, meaning the 7th trumpet, be where great tribulation fits. Great tribulation fits during the time of the 5th seal, not the 6th seal. Great tribulation fits during the time of the 6th trumpet which is what the 5th seal is involving.

Many confuse these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time.
Also I would like to add there is no such thing as a “7 year tribulation,”that is just the doctrines of men, as a 7 year tribulation is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, neither is a "pre-tribulation rapture."

I agree there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation nor a Pretrib rapture. I disagree with what you said here, though---"these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time"


Way too much to try and address in the OP, at least for me anyway.

As to this 42 months, even if it isn't a literal 42 months, it still can't span centuries or anything like that, the fact vial 1 gets poured out on those who worship the beast during it's 42 month reign. Which means they all have to be living in the same era of time, obviously.

Let me ask this, do you take it literal that Christ's ministry was 42 months, thus 3 and 1/2 years. In the event you do, why would that 42 months be literal but the ministry of the beast wouldn't be? IOW, why did Christ get less time to provide His ministry but the beast gets far more time to provide it's? After all, what the beast does for 42 months is technically a ministry of sorts. Christ's ministry led people back to God. The beast's ministry leads people back to satan. Meaning they are initially saved but then fall away, thus are led right back to satan even though they were initially led back to God when they were saved.

During Christ's ministry miracles were being performed. During the false prophet's ministry miracles will also be being performed, except they will be lying wonders.

On a side note. It's obvious that the Amil that liked your post didn't read your post carefully enough. Since you submitted numerous things that he wouldn't be remotely agreeing with. Such as Daniel 7:12 involving a millennium after the 2nd coming. Such as the 6th seal, meaning the 7th trumpet, being when great tribulation (Daniel 12:1) begins according to your interpretation.

 

[Douggg]

I agree there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation nor a Pretrib rapture.

I think part of the confusion and error being made is because of using the term "tribulation" instead of "great tribulation" (as in Matthew 24:21).

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is setup.