"If" or "When"? - 1 John 1:9

[St. SteVen]

I'll get some backlash on this one. What's new? - LOL

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. - 1 John 1:9 NIV

If? (or when?) I checked the KJV. It also says "If". ???

What do you make of this? Why does it say "If" instead of "When"?

1 John 1:8-10 NIV
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

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[Wrangler]

Why does it say "If" instead of "When"?

Conditional or qualified statements contain conditions or qualifications. What is it about this you do not understand?

When presumes it will inevitably happen. If this were the case, then universalism would be correct doctrine.

A hot topic in America is whether gays will go to heaven. The simple answer is no unrepentant sinner will go to heaven. IF there is true repentance, including the abdication of ongoing willful sinning, THEN, forgiveness will occur. This indicates a process flow in addition to condition, i.e., the repentance is a precondition of the blessing to follow.

I suppose the double standard is that we are commanded to forgive unconditionally while our Creator retains divine conditions for this particular blessing. I say this particular blessing because Scripture also says the rain falls on the righteous as well as the unrighteous. Finally, the apparent double standard is THE PERVERSION OF EQUALITY that is all the rage in our decadent culture, confusing the power of the Creator with the obligation of the Created.

Hope this helps!

 

[Lambano]

What do you make of this? Why does it say "If" instead of "When"?

It says "if" because the Greek says "if" ("ἐὰν"), not "when" ("ὅταν"). (I'm an incorrigible smartass, so don't "incorrige" me.)

Wrangler said what needed to be said (though he didn't stop there ). "If" may or may not happen. "When" will happen; it's just not defined, well, when it will happen.

Look at the five "If" statements in 1 John 1:6-10. John apparently doesn't think any one of those conditionals (including confession of sins) are inevitable. They may happen; they may not happen. What do you think?

6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness...​

7 But if we walk in the light ...​

8 If we claim to be without sin...​

9 If we confess our sins...​

10 If we claim we have not sinned,...​

(Note: Verse 7 assumes the conditional in verse 6 is not true, hence you have a big 'but' there, "δὲ".)

 

[St. SteVen]

Conditional or qualified statements contain conditions or qualifications. What is it about this you do not understand?

Not a matter of not understanding. Just curious about the seemingly poor word choices.

When presumes it will inevitably happen. If this were the case, then universalism would be correct doctrine.

Isn't that a pretty fair presumption? That we will sin?

... no unrepentant sinner will go to heaven.

Is that true? We sin in ways that we do not even know.

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[St. SteVen]

Look at the five "If" statements in 1 John 1:6-10. John apparently doesn't think any one of those conditionals (including confession of sins) are inevitable. They may happen; they may not happen. What do you think?

6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness...7 But if we walk in the light ...8 If we claim to be without sin...9 If we confess our sins...10 If we claim we have not sinned,...
(Note: Verse 7 assumes the conditional in verse 6 is not true, hence you have a big 'but' there, "δὲ".)

Perhaps all the "if"s are there as a literary device.

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[KUWN]

You wrote:

"Just curious about the seemingly poor word choices."

These are all simple third-class conditions in the Greek. "if" is the correct translation, not "when."

 

[St. SteVen]

You wrote:

"Just curious about the seemingly poor word choices."

These are all simple third-class conditions in the Greek. "if" is the correct translation, not "when."

I was pointing back to the Greek, which is reflected in the English.

"If we sin..." indicates that it may, or may not happen.

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[Wrangler]

Is that true? We sin in ways that we do not even know.

Yes, it is true. It’s totally true and at the heart of the matter. Responsibility. Stop making excuses and changing the subject, like people don’t know they are sinning!

There are sins that people KNOW are a sin, again, like homosexuality, that are continuing willfully in that sin.

 

[KUWN]

I was pointing back to the Greek, which is reflected in the English.

"If we sin..." indicates that it may, or may not happen.

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English versions also translate first-class conditions as "if." The Greek will tell you which one it is.

 

[Lambano]

Perhaps all the "if"s are there as a literary device.

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Perhaps. "When" would equally be a literary device. But I note that the even-numbered "ifs" are behavior John wants to discourage, and the odd numbered "ifs" are contrasting behavior John wants to encourage. (John uses this compare-and-contrast technique throughout the letter, for those of who still remember our high school English literature and composition lessons, thank you Mrs. Carlson.) The fact that John wants the identified behaviors to NOT occur makes "if" a better choice than "when".

 

[St. SteVen]

Perhaps. "When" would equally be a literary device. But I note that the even-numbered "ifs" are behavior John wants to discourage, and the odd numbered "ifs" are contrasting behavior John wants to encourage. (John uses this compare-and-contrast technique throughout the letter, for those of who still remember our high school English literature and composition lessons, thank you Mrs. Carlson.) The fact that John wants the identified behaviors to NOT occur makes "if" a better choice than "when".

That's good, but the numbering system came in the translation phase. The writers didn't put them there.

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[Lambano]

(John uses this compare-and-contrast technique throughout the letter, for those of who still remember our high school English literature and composition lessons, thank you Mrs. Carlson.)

Ever notice that the exegetical techniques taught in Evangelicalism tend to focus on individual verses and not look at the work as a whole and ask, "what is the author's overall objective, and how does this verse fit into that overall objective?"

 

[Lambano]

That's good, but the numbering system came in the translation phase. The writers didn't put them there.

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Sigh. It's not about the numbers. The verse order is the same regardless of the numbers. The overall flow of thought is independent of the numbers. The question is, what is the author's objective, and how does the word and sentence choice serve his purposes?

 

[MA2444]

a literary device.

Of course it is a literary device. Because it involves a choice by us, action. Some do confess their sis and some do not.

Do you fast regularly?

 

[St. SteVen]

Ever notice that the exegetical techniques taught in Evangelicalism tend to focus on individual verses and not look at the work as a whole and ask, "what is the author's overall objective, and how does this verse fit into that overall objective?"

Agree.
The goal of Apologetics seems to be a collection of "proof-texts" to support the doctrinal house of cards.
Several "proof-texts" are refuted in context. Or, by "overall objective", as you say.

Although, I suppose the overall objective may be only an observation in some cases.
When it is not clearly stated in the text.

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[Lambano]

Do you fast regularly?

I do half-fast fasts. And let's not bring my regularity into the discussion.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
a literary device.

Of course it is a literary device. Because it involves a choice by us, action. Some do confess their sis and some do not.

Do you fast regularly?

Uh... so you don't know what a literary device is?

No, I suffer from irregularity. - LOL

I blame it on my cancer treatment.

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[Lambano]

Although, I suppose the overall objective may be only an observation in some cases.
When it is not clearly stated in the text.

Fortunately, in 1 John, he states his objective clearly (which should make Wrangler happy) in chapter 2 verse 1. (Which brings me to another pet peeve, people who take 1 John 3:9 out of context.) How does this section of "ifs" serve that objective?

 

[St. SteVen]

I do half-fast fasts. And let's not bring my regularity into the discussion.

Is a half-fast one step up from half-slow?

It might be a fast half-empty or a fast half-full thing?

In that case, half-full would be optimistic.

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[St. SteVen]

Which brings me to another pet peeve, people who take 1 John 3:9 out of context.

Aren't you taking it out of context by only referring to verse nine? - LOL

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