It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Spiritual Israelite]

David, Matthew 24:31 is not referring to the rapture. That verse is referring to the gathering of the Jews from the nations of the world to the land of Israel.

It is a promise that God made to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 30:1-6. Compare verse 4 to Matthew 24:31.

Deuteronomy 30:
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Matthew 24:
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Absolutely false. You are trying to relate unrelated passages yet again. You have failed to take Mark 13 into consideration.

Compare the following passages:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice that "them also which sleep in Jesus" will be with Him when He comes and the rapture occurs. Those are the ones gathered from "the uttermost part of heaven". And those "which are alive and remain" are those gathered "from the uttermost part of the earth".

Jesus will absolutely not descend from heaven more than once in the future. Scripture says he will descend once from heaven in the manner in which He ascended to haven (Acts 1:9-11). And it says "unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28). The second time. Never the third time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In the postrib rapture side, I have never seen an argument supporting a postrib rapture.

Then you aren't paying attention.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

I see them saying " Jesus was mistaken about a 50% dynamic of taken/left"

Show me where anyone said that Jesus was mistaken about anything. You can't do it. You are lying.

Or that "Jesus must be perverted with all those brides in mat 25"

Show me where anyone said this? You can't. Another lie.

Or that "acts 1 is mistaken, and Jesus will return in an opposite manner than his ascension "

Show me where anyone said this? You can't. Another lie. You are a habitual liar.

Or that "the components in the virgin parable must be changed".

No one said this. Another lie.

Or that rev 14:14 "is not Jesus on a cloud with a sickle, he is on a horse with millions of horses blackening the sky."

LOL at you taking those passages literally as if they are talking about Jesus literally sitting on a cloud with a sickle or literally sitting on a white horse. Do you think there will be a literal sword coming out of His mouth when He returns that He will use to literally slay people with when He returns, too?

IOW, They are bible debunked,and actually changing verses.

This is an absolute lie. Your posts are garbage and filled with lies. That's all you have to offer.

 

[Douggg]

Absolutely false. You are trying to relate unrelated passages yet again. You have failed to take Mark 13 into consideration.

Compare the following passages:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice that "them also which sleep in Jesus" will be with Him when He comes and the rapture occurs. Those are the ones gathered from "the uttermost part of heaven". And those "which are alive and remain" are those gathered "from the uttermost part of the earth".

Jesus will absolutely not descend from heaven more than once in the future. Scripture says he will descend once from heaven in the manner in which He ascended to haven (Acts 1:9-11). And it says "unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28). The second time. Never the third time.

Mark 13:27 is the same as Matthew 24:31. It is not the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

In the rapture/resurrection event, Jesus does not send His angels to gather anyone. Jesus Himself resurrects the dead in Christ and changes the living in Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Mark 13:24 is the same as Matthew 24:31.

Hello? No kidding. That's why I posted it to show an added detail in Mark 13:27 that isn't there in Matthew 24:31. Just like 1 Thess 4:14-17, Mark 13:24-27 shows believers being gathered both from heaven and from earth when Jesus comes.

It is not the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

In the rapture/resurrection event, Jesus does not send His angels to gather anyone. Jesus Himself resurrects the dead in Christ and changes the living in Christ.

Where does 1 Thess 4:14-18 indicate that "Jesus does not send His angels to gather anyone"? It doesn't say that. Why are you making things up? Do you understand that each passage about the second coming of Christ doesn't contain all the same details about it? How else do you think we will be gathered and caught up to Christ except for the angels coming and doing that?

Do you believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is the same event as Revelation 19:11-21?

 

[Douggg]

Hello? No kidding. That's why I posted it to show an added detail in Mark 13:27 that isn't there in Matthew 24:31. Just like 1 Thess 4:14-17, Mark 13:24-27 shows believers being gathered both from heaven and from earth when Jesus comes.

I meant to type Mark 13:27 is the same as Matthew 24:31. I made a typo. I went back and edited my post.

Where does 1 Thess 4:14-18 indicate that "Jesus does not send His angels to gather anyone"? It doesn't say that. Why are you making things up?

It does not say in 1Thessalonians 4:14-18 anything about Jesus sending His angels to gather anyone. It is not in the text that Jesus will do so for the rapture/resurrection event. You are the one making stuff up that is not in the text.

Do you understand that each passage about the second coming of Christ doesn't contain all the same details about it? How else do you think we will be gathered and caught up to Christ except for the angels coming and doing that?

By the power of Christ's words. Just as Jesus called John up to heaven in Revelation 4.1-2. No angels were involved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I meant to type Mark 13:27 is the same as Matthew 24:31. I made a typo. I went back and edited my post.

Yes, I assumed that was the case and my response was based on that assumption.

It does not say in 1Thessalonians 4:14-18 anything about Jesus sending His angels to gather anyone. It is not in the text that Jesus will do so for the rapture/resurrection event. You are the one making stuff up that is not in the text.

It does not specify one way or another about whether He sends His angels there. You are acting as if it specifically says that the angels do not gather anyone there, but that is not the case. Why do you require Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:14-18 to contain all of the same details in order to be related to each other when you don't have that requirement for other passages that you relate together? Where is the consistency in your approach to interpreting scripture?

Do you believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are the same event? I already asked you this and you didn't answer. Why not? Please answer the question.

By the power of Christ's words. Just as Jesus called John up to heaven in Revelation 4.1-2. No angels were involved.

He was not taken up to heaven bodily, he was given a vision. So, that isn't a valid comparison. And you are just making assumptions here. Nowhere does Paul indicate that angels aren't involved in the rapture event. He doesn't say one way or another, so don't act like he did.

 

[David in NJ]

David, Matthew 24:31 is not referring to the rapture. That verse is referring to the gathering of the Jews from the nations of the world to the land of Israel.

It is a promise that God made to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 30:1-6. Compare verse 4 to Matthew 24:31.

Deuteronomy 30:
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Matthew 24:
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

the gathering is all three the Resurrection, the Rapture and the prophecy of Jesus = Matt 23:37-39

the Elect of Christ are only those in Christ = Jew & Gentile

 

[Douggg]

Do you believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are the same event? I already asked you this and you didn't answer. Why not? Please answer the question.

Matthew 24:29-30a is the sixth seal event, the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

45 days later....

Matthew 24:30b takes place as Jesus descends down to earth in Revelation 19:11-21.

Then in Matthew 24:31, Jesus sends out his angels to gather the Jews from the nations to the land of Israel.

While they are doing that, Jesus resurrects the bodies of the great tribulation martyrs in Revelation 20:4-6.

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The gathering of the Jews from the nations is also in Ezekiel 39:28. Jesus's return to this earth is in Ezekiel 39:21.

 

[Douggg]

Nowhere does Paul indicate that angels aren't involved in the rapture event.

The rapture involves the translation of the living in Christ bodies into eternal life everlasting bodies. The angels can't do that.

The rapture/resurrection event is an action directly by Christ Himself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:29-30a is the sixth seal event, the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

In case you forgot after the several times we've talked about this before, I agree with this.

45 days later....

Whoa. Now you're off base. There is no indication whatsoever in Matthew 24:29-31 that there is any delay between the tribulation being over and Jesus's second coming. What you don't understand is that His second coming is what puts an end to the tribulation.

Matthew 24:30b takes place as Jesus descends down to earth in Revelation 19:11-21.

Then in Matthew 24:31, Jesus sends out his angels to gather the Jews from the nations to the land of Israel.

While they are doing that, Jesus resurrects the bodies of the great tribulation martyrs in Revelation 20:4-6.

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The gathering of the Jews from the nations is also in Ezekiel 39:28. Jesus's return to this earth is in Ezekiel 39:21.

Again, you ignore that there is both a gathering from heaven and from earth in Matthew 24:31, as can be seen in the parallel verse of Mark 13:27. But, you conveniently ignore that or explain that away.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The rapture involves the translation of the living in Christ bodies into eternal life everlasting bodies. The angels can't do that.

Good grief, Douggg. Who is saying that? No one. They obviously would gather us after our bodies are changed first. The word rapture itself does not refer to us being changed, but rather to us being caught up to meet Christ in the air. We are not caught up until after our bodies are changed first.

The rapture/resurrection event is an action directly by Christ Himself.

Nothing says that. Your beliefs are based on assumptions and nothing more.

Do you believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are the same event? Yes or no?

 

[Douggg]

Whoa. Now you're off base. There is no indication whatsoever in Matthew 24:29-31 that there is any delay between the tribulation being over and Jesus's second coming. What you don't understand is that His second coming is what puts an end to the tribulation.

The sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven.

That will cause a reaction by the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon for 45 days to prepare to make war on Jesus. The gathering of the armies at Armageddon is in Revelation 16:14-16.

The 45 days is the interval between the 1290 days and 1335 days in Daniel 12:11-12.

Then in Revelation 19:11-21, Jesus returns.

In Revelation 19:19-21, Jesus destroys the armies gathered to make war on Him.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven.

That will cause a reaction by the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon for 45 days to prepare to make war on Jesus. The gathering of the armies at Armageddon is in Revelation 16:14-16.

The 45 days is the interval between the 1290 days and 1335 days in Daniel 12:11-12.

Then in Revelation 19:11-21, Jesus returns.

In Revelation 19:19-21, Jesus destroys the armies gathered to make war on Him.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Your timing is all messed up. You're always relating unrelated scriptures over and over again. Jesus gave no indication whatsoever of a time period of any significance, such as 45 days between the end of the tribulation and His coming. Not at all. No wonder your charts are such a mess. Let's just agree to disagree because reading your posts gives me a headache similar to looking at your charts. It's not worth it.

 

[Douggg]

Again, you ignore that there is both a gathering from heaven and from earth in Matthew 24:31, as can be seen in the parallel verse of Mark 13:27. But, you conveniently ignore that or explain that away.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


In Matthew 24:31, it is not talking about literal heaven where God's throne is. But where the earth's atmosphere (heaven) meets the horizon.

The expression "from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" means gather the elect from all directions, inclusive of everywhere, even from the most extreme places.

It is the same expression used in Deuteronomy 30:4...


2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
,

 

[Douggg]

Your timing is all messed up. You're always relating unrelated scriptures over and over again. Jesus gave no indication whatsoever of a time period of any significance, such as 45 days between the end of the tribulation and His coming. Not at all. No wonder your charts are such a mess. Let's just agree to disagree because reading your posts gives me a headache similar to looking at your charts. It's not worth it.

Spiritual Israelite, it is not that hard to understand.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The tribulation of those days is the 1290 days of Daniel 12:11

The great tribulation is the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12. You have already stated that the great tribulation ends when Jesus returns.

The abomination of desolation setup.
From the aod setup, 1290 days to the sign of the Son of man in heaven.
resulting in for 45 days the kings of the earth prepare to make war on Jesus.
From the aod setup, 1335 days to Jesus returns, to end the great tribulation, and to destroy those armies gathered to make war on Him.

 

[Douggg]

Do you believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are the same event? Yes or no?

The three verses you referenced in Matthew 24 do not all take place on the same day as the verses your referenced in Revelation 19, and thus are not the same event. So the answer is no, considering the way you phrased your question.

There are several events in Matthew 24:29-31.

in time line order, they are....

Matthew 24:29-30a , the sixth seal event of Revelation 6:12-17.

Matthew 24:30b, the event of Revelation 19:11-21.

Matthew 24:31, the event of Deuteronomy 30:3-6

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


In Matthew 24:31, it is not talking about literal heaven where God's throne is. But where the earth's atmosphere (heaven) meets the horizon.

The expression "from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" means gather the elect from all directions, inclusive of everywhere, even from the most extreme places.

It is the same expression used in Deuteronomy 30:4...


2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
,

Your view makes complete nonsense of the following verse that is parallel to Matthew 24:31.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

You are claiming that "the uttermost part of heaven" actually refers to all places on earth. Well, what does the uttermost part of the earth mean then? Your view does not even differentiate between the uttermost part of the earth and the uttermost part of heaven. You make it as if what Jesus said in Mark 13:27 was redundant.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The three verses you referenced in Matthew 24 do not all take place on the same day as the verses your referenced in Revelation 19, and thus are not the same event. So the answer is no, considering the way you phrased your question.

There are several events in Matthew 24:29-31.

in time line order, they are....

Matthew 24:29-30a , the sixth seal event of Revelation 6:12-17.

Matthew 24:30b, the event of Revelation 19:11-21.

Matthew 24:31, the event of Deuteronomy 30:3-6

Turning all of that into completely separate events is just utter nonsense that can't be taken seriously. Your approach that says two passages can't be related together unless they contain all the same details is utterly ridiculous. Why don't you make every verse within Revelation 19:11-21 into its own event? Why not make every verse in scripture its own event? There's no rhyme or reason to the way you interpret scripture at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Spiritual Israelite, it is not that hard to understand.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The tribulation of those days is the 1290 days of Daniel 12:11

The great tribulation is the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12. You have already stated that the great tribulation ends when Jesus returns.

The abomination of desolation setup.
From the aod setup, 1290 days to the sign of the Son of man in heaven.
resulting in for 45 days the kings of the earth prepare to make war on Jesus.
From the aod setup, 1335 days to Jesus returns, to end the great tribulation, and to destroy those armies gathered to make war on Him.

There is no indication of any of that in Matthew 24:29-31 at all. You are making things up. You are trying to relate unrelated scripture. Every verse is a separate event to you. You can't be taken seriously. I'm not wasting any more time on your nonsense.

 

[David in NJ]

The rapture involves the translation of the living in Christ bodies into eternal life everlasting bodies. The angels can't do that.

The rapture/resurrection event is an action directly by Christ Himself.

The rapture involves the translation of the living in Christ bodies into eternal life everlasting bodies.

TRUE = 1 Corinthians chapter 15

The rapture/resurrection event is an action directly by Christ Himself.

Why do you keep reversing the Order of Scripture by placing the rapture BEFORE the Resurrection?

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

AFTER that, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.