Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Angelina]

Jesus said that the gates of hell could not prevail over the church. That does not mean many would not be killed or that there would not be persecution in some areas. Yes we can also interpret that this means the church is safe from death because we have eternal life. But obviously the meaning is special and important to the church. The believers of old before the church also had eternal life by believing Jesus would come one day. So Jesus promising that the forces of hell would never prevail over the church includes a special protection for our existence here on earth, to preach the gospel and etc.

During the tribulation, believers are broken as a power and public group and organization. They will be hunted and killed and not allowed to preach or even buy food etc. If the church were still here at that time the words of Jesus would be false and void.

That proves there has to be a gathering of the church together in the air before that time. It will be new believers who face these things and not the church.

Brother, I am sure that many Christians who believed in the rapture have already gone to be with the lord. Although I personally do not believe that there is going to be a rapture, It does not change the fact that I see you as part of the believing body of Christ. Hope you have a nice day xox

 

[Douggg]

here is nothing connecting the seventh trumpet to Satan being cast down to earth.

Revelation 8:13 and Revelation 12:12 - woe to the inhabiters of the earth in both verses.

No verses having the seventh trumpet as being the last trumpet of 1Corinthians15:52.

 

[Douggg]

What is the point of that? Are you saying that the bema seat rewards are given at the seventh trumpet or that they are given out before that? The text indicates that they are given out after the seventh trumpet sounds.

After the seventh trumpet sounds and the rejoicing reaction of them in heaven when Satan is cast down to earth.

While the earth undergoes the time of Satan's wrath, in heaven, the bema seat of Christ takes place as the raptured/resurrected in Christ will receive rewards for what they did for the cause of Christ during their life's.

The seventh angel sounding and the bema seat of Christ and the Revelation 11:18 reference are on my timeline chart down below, near the bottom.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 8:13 and Revelation 12:12 - woe to the inhabiters of the earth in both verses.

That is not how to interpret scripture. Verses having common words do not automatically mean that they are directly related. The description of what happens at the seventh trumpet is described in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-18. Why do you ignore those verses? Revelation 10:7 says the mystery of God is finished at the seventh trumpet. What do you think that means? And Revelation 11:15 says the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of God at the seventh trumpet. What do you think that means? It also says it's "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" at the seventh trumpet. The judgment of the dead is described in Revelation 20:11-15. Is that before or after the thousand years?

No verses having the seventh trumpet as being the last trumpet of 1Corinthians15:52.

In your view the last trumpet is not actually the last trumpet in any sense, which means Paul calls it "the last trumpet" for no reason at all in your view. You can't even tell me what trumpets precede it. And you have trumpets sounding after it. You understanding of the last trumpet is completely nonsensical.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

After the seventh trumpet sounds and the rejoicing reaction of them in heaven when Satan is cast down to earth.

While the earth undergoes the time of Satan's wrath, in heaven, the bema seat of Christ takes place as the raptured/resurrected in Christ will receive rewards for what they did for the cause of Christ during their life's.

You are missing that unbelievers are judged at the bema seat of Christ as well, so your understanding is completely off base.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Notice here that "before the judgment seat of Christ...every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God" and "give account of himself to God". Do you think only believers will have to bow to Christ and give an account of themselves? Just read Matthew 25:31-46 and you can see otherwise. Also, Paul was referencing this OT passage that refers to unbelievers bowing their knees as well:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice how it says "all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed". So, they too will bow to Him and confess that He is Lord at that time.

That can be confirmed by this passage as well:

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There is only one judgment day of all people, not two or three judgment days as you believe in.

The seventh angel sounding and the bema seat of Christ and the Revelation 11:18 reference are on my timeline chart down below, near the bottom.

As if I would waste my time looking at that mess. You are hilarious with your continued attempts to make me waste my time looking at your useless charts. The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trumpet (Rev 10:7), but you obviously don't believe that.

 

[Douggg]

That is not how to interpret scripture. Verses having common words do not automatically mean that they are directly related.

"woe to the inhabiters of the earth" is a unique phrase tied to the last three trumpets. Not individual words.

The description of what happens at the seventh trumpet is described in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-18. Why do you ignore those verses?

I am not ignoring any verses. You are ignoring what it says in Revelation 8:13 and Revelation 12:12.

Revelation 10:7 says the mystery of God is finished at the seventh trumpet. What do you think that means? And Revelation 11:15 says the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of God at the seventh trumpet. What do you think that means?

The mystery of God that He expressed through the prophets is about how God will bring the Kingdom of God to become the ruling kingdom over the kingdoms of the earth. And part of that process involves removing Satan and his angel's activities over the kingdoms the earth. And that process begins when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet.

It also says it's "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" at the seventh trumpet. The judgment of the dead is described in Revelation 20:11-15. Is that before or after the thousand years?

It is talking about the resurrected in Christ appearing before the bema seat of Christ. To take place in heaven, while the great tribulation and Satan wrath is taking place on earth. It is at the bottom of my timeline chart, in my previous post #363.

 

[Douggg]

You are missing that unbelievers are judged at the bema seat of Christ as well, so your understanding is completely off base.

No, the bema seat of Christ is only for believers. (btw, "bema" is a word not in the kjv bible. Bema is a Greek word meaning a raised platform where a judge sat to award prizes to victors in athletic contests)

2Corinthians5:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Douggg]

As if I would waste my time looking at that mess. You are hilarious with your continued attempts to make me waste my time looking at your useless charts. The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trumpet (Rev 10:7), but you obviously don't believe that.

You have already wasted years of your life believing in the Amil position. 30 seconds of your time to look at my timeline chart showing the seventh sounding his trumpet and the bema seat of Christ and the Revelation 11:18 reference would not be that much.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am not ignoring any verses. You are ignoring what it says in Revelation 8:13 and Revelation 12:12.

If you're not ignoring Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-18, then why do you not have the things mentioned in those verses as occurring when the seventh trumpet sounds?

I'm not ignoring the verses you referenced, I'm recognizing that they are not directly related.

The mystery of God that He expressed through the prophets is about how God will bring the Kingdom of God to become the ruling kingdom over the kingdoms of the earth. And part of that process involves removing Satan and his angel's activities over the kingdoms the earth. And that process begins when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet.

There is no indication of any process beginning when the seventh trumpet sounds. It indicates that the mystery of God will be finished upon the sounding of the seventh trumpet and that the kingdoms of the world will become the kingdoms of God at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. You're making the text say what you want it to say again.

It is talking about the resurrected in Christ appearing before the bema seat of Christ. To take place in heaven, while the great tribulation and Satan wrath is taking place on earth. It is at the bottom of my timeline chart, in my previous post #363.

Okay, just ignore what I showed you regarding what scripture teaches about this then. You're good at ignoring the verses that don't fit your doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, the bema seat of Christ is only for believers. (btw, "bema" is a word not in the kjv bible. Bema is a Greek word meaning a raised platform where a judge sat to award prizes to victors in athletic contests)

2Corinthians5:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So, you just ignore Romans 14:10-12 which refers to both believers and unbelievers appearing before the judgment seat of Christ then? That can be seen in Matthew 25:31-46 as well. You completely ignored what I showed you using Romans 14:10-12, Isaiah 45:22-24 and Philippians 2:9-10. That says it all about you. You cherry pick certain scriptures and ignore the rest. You believe what you want to believe instead of believing what scripture teaches.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have already wasted years of your life believing in the Amil position.

Wrong. You are completely incapable of refuting that position as you've shown time and time again. You have shown repeatedly how dishonest you are with scripture and how you make it say what you want it to say. So, you have no place to talk about wasting time when you have wasted who knows how much time promoting your nonsense.

30 seconds of your time to look at my timeline chart showing the seventh sounding his trumpet and the bema seat of Christ and the Revelation 11:18 reference would not be that much.

I know your chart reflects your nonsensical words, so why would I bother looking at it closely? Just glancing at it almost gave me a seizure. What a mess. Useless. I wish you made better use of your Photoshop skills than that. What a waste.

 

[Douggg]

If you're not ignoring Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-18, then why do you not have the things mentioned in those verses as occurring when the seventh trumpet sounds?

I'm not ignoring the verses you referenced, I'm recognizing that they are not directly related.


There is no indication of any process beginning when the seventh trumpet sounds. It indicates that the mystery of God will be finished upon the sounding of the seventh trumpet and that the kingdoms of the world will become the kingdoms of God at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. You're making the text say what you want it to say again.


Okay, just ignore what I showed you regarding what scripture teaches about this then. You're good at ignoring the verses that don't fit your doctrine.

You are ignoring the time/times/half time that Satan will have left when he is cast down to earth, when the 7th angels sounds his trumpet. Where does that time/times/haft time fit relative to Jesus's return ?

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus said that the gates of hell could not prevail over the church. That does not mean many would not be killed or that there would not be persecution in some areas. Yes we can also interpret that this means the church is safe from death because we have eternal life. But obviously the meaning is special and important to the church. The believers of old before the church also had eternal life by believing Jesus would come one day. So Jesus promising that the forces of hell would never prevail over the church includes a special protection for our existence here on earth, to preach the gospel and etc.

During the tribulation, believers are broken as a power and public group and organization. They will be hunted and killed and not allowed to preach or even buy food etc. If the church were still here at that time the words of Jesus would be false and void.

That proves there has to be a gathering of the church together in the air before that time. It will be new believers who face these things and not the church.

If the church were still here at that time the words of Jesus would be false and void.

JESUS who is the Way, the Truth and the Life NEVER lies.

Please extrapolate your statement which i highlighted in green - Thank You

 

[Douggg]

You have shown repeatedly how dishonest you are with scripture

So, now you have to go into Amil name calling mode ?

I know your charts reflects your nonsensical words, so why would I bother looking at it closely? Just glancing at it almost gave me a seizure. What a mess. Useless. I wish you made better use of your Photoshop skills than that. What a waste.

....more name calling.

btw, I use Corel Paintshop Pro to make my time line charts and illustrations. You have no graphics skills ?

 

[David in NJ]

So, now you have to go into Amil name calling mode ?


....more name calling.

btw, I use Corel Paintshop Pro to make my time line charts and illustrations. You have no graphics skills ?

Brother Douggg,

Why not make a timeline chart according to the words of CHRIST = you know, the One who only Speaks TRUTH

Shalom

 

[Douggg]

Brother Douggg,

Why not make a timeline chart according to the words of CHRIST = you know, the One who only Speaks TRUTH

Shalom

David, could you post one of the timeline charts that you have made ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are ignoring the time/times/half time that Satan will have left when he is cast down to earth, when the 7th angels sounds his trumpet. Where does that time/times/haft time fit relative to Jesus's return ?

I'm not ignoring that. You're messing up the timing of it. Jesus will return at the seventh trumpet. That's why it says the mystery of God is finished at that point. The kingdom(s) of the world become the kingdom(s) of God at that point. The time to destroy those who destroy the earth will have arrived at that time and the time of the dead being judged will have come at that point. You ignore all of that and try to say those things happen years later instead, which is not indicated in the text whatsoever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, now you have to go into Amil name calling mode ?

I tell the truth. You are very dishonest with scripture. That is a fact. You make up new definitions for words to make it say what you want it to say like you do with the word "generation" in Matthew 24:34. You do things like that constantly. I'm not calling you names, I'm simply pointing the facts of what you do with scripture.

...more name calling.

More stating facts. My responses to you are very tame compared to how much nonsense you put out there. I'm holding back in my responses compared to what I really think of your posts.

btw, I use Corel Paintshop Pro to make my time line charts and illustrations.

Please put your Paintshop Pro skills to better use. Your charts reflect false doctrine and are completely useless.

You have no graphics skills ?

No, I don't. You'll just have to keep reading my words instead of me showing you charts. Sorry. Good thing for us that scripture doesn't contain any charts so, apparently, God expects us to be able to understand His word without the need for charts. Too bad you don't understand that.

 

[David in NJ]

David, could you post one of the timeline charts that you have made ?

Thank you for your kind response = well received

i have other responsibilities that take priority right now but just allow me some time, maybe a few days if i complete my other priorities.

Once again, thank you Douggg

 

[Douggg]

I'm not ignoring that. You're messing up the timing of it. Jesus will return at the seventh trumpet. That's why it says the mystery of God is finished at that point. The kingdom(s) of the world become the kingdom(s) of God at that point. The time to destroy those who destroy the earth will have arrived at that time and the time of the dead being judged will have come at that point. You ignore all of that and try to say those things happen years later instead, which is not indicated in the text whatsoever.

You did not answer the question. The time/times/half time that Satan will have left when he is cast down to earth, where does that time/times/haft time fit relative to Jesus's return ?