It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[The Light]

Show me where it indicates that the 144,000 have immortal bodies before the return of Christ (the third coming of Christ in your view, I guess).

. Sure. No problem. The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Amils agree that He comes after the tribulation (Matt 24:29-31) and before His wrath comes down, so why are you calling his doctrine error when he agrees with this? Are you just incapable of understanding what others believe?

Sorry. I guess its kind of hard for me to figure out what you believe because my mind is incapable of spiritualizing scripture. There's also some that think that the seventh seal is silence in heaven and want to pretend those trumpets of wrath are imaginary. Or the 6th seal is a pathetic view.......I mean.......prophetic view and does not happen.

 

[David in NJ]

I didn't know that the rapture happened even before the flood. Never heard of the pre-flood rapture theory before. Interesting.

There is a true rapture that takes place before Noah's Rescue from WRATH.

This 'true rapture' occurred during the Great Tribulation of pre-flood/wrath.

This 'true rapture' only applied to one person as a Christophany in the OT.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

. Sure. No problem. The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Are you aware that there is more than one way to be redeemed than just bodily?

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Can you explain why Paul neglected to list the supposed separate resurrection of the 144,000 in the order of resurrections he gave here:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Sorry. I guess its kind of hard for me to figure out what you believe because my mind is incapable of spiritualizing scripture.

What are you talking about here? How is someone spiritualizing scripture in relation to the sixth seal? Clearly, what's hard for you to figure out is the truth.

There's also some that think that the seventh seal is silence in heaven

Gee, I don't know. Maybe because that's what it says?

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

At the same time it's not silent at all on earth with fire coming down on it and such (2 Peter 3:10-12).

and want to pretend those trumpets of wrath are imaginary.

Why do you lie? Tell me. Somehow, you are not aware that lying is a sin. Who taught you that? Let me tell you that it is a sin. So, repent of it now. Amils absolutely do NOT pretend those trumpets are imaginary. We see the parallels in scripture that you lack the discernment to see, so your understanding of the timing of things is off.

Or the 6th seal is a pathetic view.......I mean.......prophetic view and does not happen.

Another lie. We do not say that does not happen. We agree that He comes after the tribulation of those days (Matt 24:29-31). What is hard to understand about that? If our view of the 6th seal is pathetic, then so is yours because we see it as relating to Matthew 24:29 as well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is a true rapture that takes place before Noah's Rescue from WRATH.

This 'true rapture' occurred during the Great Tribulation of pre-flood/wrath.

This 'true rapture' only applied to one person as a Christophany in the OT.

You know I was joking, right? I was, of course, referring to the rapture of the church.

 

[WPM]

His posts are full of one liner comments, no exegesis whatsoever, and then he declares himself the winner of the debate every time. It's hilarious! He couldn't be any more delusional if he tried. He is completely in over his head here and is oblivious to that fact.

They make it up as they go. There are no future 2 future comings. They invent 2 harvests and then infer 2 coming. There is no biblical basis for the same. What is to stopping them assuming 7 harvests and 7 comings. It is totally ridiculous. It is fanciful. Christ presents 2 days in history and likens His return to these 2 destructive days. What do they do? Turn them into two future comings Jesus! How absurd! Talk about butchering the sacred text! They are double-visioned! They literally see 2 of everything that was intended to be 1.

 

[WPM]

How can Jesus come for the 144,000 first fruits of Revelation 14 and it be the same as the coming of Jesus for the harvest at the end of Revelation 14.

Those 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes just blows your one coming of Jesus out the tub.


Hmmm. How is it the scripture continually proves your doctrine is in error. The FACT that Jesus comes at the 6th seal at the end of tribulation, and BEFORE the wrath of God is just one of the many things that proves your doctrine is in error.

Stop avoiding the obvious!

1. Where is "the barley harvest" mentioned in the NT?
2. Where is "the wheat harvest" mentioned in the NT?
3. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the NT text or in any rapture passage?

It seems like you know what we know: this is an extra-biblical theory invented by man that has been foisted on the inspired text.

 

[David in NJ]

You know I was joking, right? I was, of course, referring to the rapture of the church.

There is a foreshadow of the rapture of the church in OT but it is ALWAYS during Great Tribulation and just before WRATH hits.

 

[WPM]

Why is it necessary for you to blend 1 Thes 4 into 1 Thes 5.

Maybe you should understand what you are reading.

Because it is one event. Look at what is in blue!

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 says: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The coming of Christ is a destructive day will catch the wicked unexpected and unprepared but the righteous waiting and ready. We are caught up before the wicked are destroyed with "sudden destruction" and 'none escape'. We are going to be rescued just before the wrath of God is poured out and everyone left behind suffers "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape."

The Greek word aifnídios is only found in one other passage in Scripture – Luke 21:33-36. Here it is also identified with the unexpected nature of the second coming, where Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

So, "they (the wicked) shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that accompanies Christ's return, but we (the redeemed) are "accounted worthy to escape." It will come upon the rebel "unawares." This is describing the same climactic event. It is the end. Men are either ready or caught unexpectedly; they are caught up or caught on. They are either saved or lost. It is now eternal bliss or eternal torment.

Christ is exhorting His listeners here to be ready for His return, and warning that He will pour out His wrath upon all mankind who are not prepared, ready and rescued. This is the time when the heavens and the earth shall pass away.

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the wicked and current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the sudden destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What exactly was the 'FLOOD'?

a.) God's WRATH poured out to destroy every living thing that walked the earth
b.) tribulation for Noah
c.) Log Flume at Great Adventure Action Park

Pretty hard to wiggle out of the facts.
Noah gathered preflood/ pretrib.
Normal life and commerce at that gathering.
Noah RETURNS to earth FROM THE HEAVENS.

Just omit it.
...as you continue to do.

Are you actually aware that you need Noah and Lot removed post trib/ post judgement??

The Noah and Lot thingy needs to be off limits to you guys.
Either bring all the facts or just admit you can't.
Maybe use a shoulder shrug emogi for brevity.
Mat 24:38 must be a huge disappointment to that doctrine.
Huge.
Just no honest way around it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There is a foreshadow of the rapture of the church in OT but it is ALWAYS during Great Tribulation and just before WRATH hits.

Not with Noah
Not with Lot.

 

[The Light]

Why do you act as if those are separate events? That is ludicrous! You are clearly trying to make scripture say what you want it to say.

Because they are separate events. Why would the Word say the alive the remain?

The feasts of God are a picture of the end times.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul very clearly says that the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain will both TOGETHER be caught up at the same time to meet the Lord in the air after He descends from heaven. How in the world are you turning that into two entirely different events when that is not indicated in the text whatsoever?

The dead in Christ rise first. The alive remain.

Jesus returns for the alive that remain. He brings the dead in Christ with Him. The alive are caught together with them in the clouds.

The dead are in the clouds already..................them in the clouds.

Where does it say that there is a separate bodily resurrection of just the 144,000? How does that line up with what Paul taught about the order of resurrections?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

It lines up perfectly.

The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest as they were the first ripe. Israel served Baalpeor so the Gentiles become the first harvest.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Each man in his own order. The order is first fruits and they that are Christs at His coming.

1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Jesus will come for the dead in Christ first as He is the first fruits of the them that slept.

Then Christ will return for the alive that remain. The first fruits of this harvest have already occurred.

Then Christ will come for the 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. Then they that are Christs at His coming at the 6th seal will be raptured. We know what the first fruits are, so we know what the harvest is.

 

[WPM]

Pretty hard to wiggle out of the facts.
Noah gathered preflood/ pretrib.
Normal life and commerce at that gathering.
Noah RETURNS to earth FROM THE HEAVENS.

Just omit it.
...as you continue to do.

Are you actually aware that you need Noah and Lot removed post trib/ post judgement??

The Noah and Lot thingy needs to be off limits to you guys.
Either bring all the facts or just admit you can't.
Maybe use a shoulder shrug emogi for brevity.
Mat 24:38 must be a huge disappointment to that doctrine.
Huge.
Just no honest way around it.

Christ speaks of “the days of Noe” (plural), speaking of the days that preceded the destruction of all the wicked. He then spoke of “the day” (singular), speaking of the actual day when the wicked were wiped. This contrast between “the days” and “day” is common in Scripture and is presented in order that we can distinguish between “the lasts days” of time and “the last day” of time, that ushers in the end. The actual day that Noah entered into the ark "the flood came, and took them all away." It was therefore an individual day that God closed the door of the Ark and by doing so damned all those that were left behind. The same will occur when our ark – Christ – arrives at the second coming.

God closed the ark and the destructive floods came immediately lasting 40 days, although the water remained on the earth 150 days until the ark rested on Ararat. Jesus said, "the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:27). The Lord goes from "days" (plural) to "day" to show that he is talking of an individual day of destruction. Christ reinforces the fact that it was an individual day by also using the days/days contrast re Sodom's judgement, He emphasizes, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29). And then concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (or) apokaluptetai” (v 30).

 

[David in NJ]

Pretty hard to wiggle out of the facts.
Noah gathered preflood/ pretrib.
Normal life and commerce at that gathering.
Noah RETURNS to earth FROM THE HEAVENS.

Just omit it.
...as you continue to do.

Are you actually aware that you need Noah and Lot removed post trib/ post judgement??

The Noah and Lot thingy needs to be off limits to you guys.
Either bring all the facts or just admit you can't.
Maybe use a shoulder shrug emogi for brevity.
Mat 24:38 must be a huge disappointment to that doctrine.
Huge.
Just no honest way around it.

You are a little confused so the Holy Spirit is here to help you.

Pretty hard to wiggle out of the facts.
Noah gathered preflood/ pre-WRATH
Normal life was polluted by the fallen angels cohabitating with the daughters of men.
Great Tribulation on earth WHILE Noah was building the Ark = "God said the wickedness is GREAT/ I will pour out My Wrath"
Noah SURVIVES the Great Tribulation of his day WITHOUT leaving earth = Ark carried him upon the Flood Waters

HalleluYAH for a Good Holy Spirit Fix!!!

 

[WPM]

The feasts of God are a picture of the end times.

Says who? Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"? You seem to make this thing up as you go. You manipulate Scripture to support your error. Like the cults, you make the Bible to say whatever you want it to say.

 

[David in NJ]

Because they are separate events. Why would the Word say the alive the remain?

The feasts of God are a picture of the end times.



The dead in Christ rise first. The alive remain.

Jesus returns for the alive that remain. He brings the dead in Christ with Him. The alive are caught together with them in the clouds.

The dead are in the clouds already..................them in the clouds.

It lines up perfectly.

The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest as they were the first ripe. Israel served Baalpeor so the Gentiles become the first harvest.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Each man in his own order. The order is first fruits and they that are Christs at His coming.

1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Jesus will come for the dead in Christ first as He is the first fruits of the them that slept.

Then Christ will return for the alive that remain. The first fruits of this harvest have already occurred.

Then Christ will come for the 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. Then they that are Christs at His coming at the 6th seal will be raptured. We know what the first fruits are, so we know what the harvest is.

@The Light says: "The dead in Christ rise first."

the LORD says: "The alive saints who are remaining get raptured AFTER the Resurrection = 100% TRUTH

@The Light says: "Jesus returns for the alive that remain." = 100% FALSE and is a COMPLETE LIE out of the mouths of men

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because they are separate events. Why would the Word say the alive the remain?

Such a weak response. I'm not sure what you are asking here. Those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord are obviously still alive when He comes. And Paul said they, together with the resurrected Christ, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. How in the world can you turn that into two separate events when it explicitly says that they are caught up TOGETHER?

The feasts of God are a picture of the end times.

Where does scripture itself teach this? Nowhere. Your doctrine comes only from your imagination.

The dead in Christ rise first. The alive remain.

What are you even saying?! Obviously, in order for the dead in Christ to be caught up TOGETHER with those who are alive and remain they have to be resurrected first, right? That's all that means when it says the dead in Christ rise first. What do you think it's saying, that they rise up in the air first? That's clearly not what it's saying as they need to be resurrected first. And then it says they are caught up TOGETHER with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air.

Jesus returns for the alive that remain. He brings the dead in Christ with Him. The alive are caught together with them in the clouds.

The dead are in the clouds already..................them in the clouds.

No! Goodness sakes. You are making that scripture say what you want it to say. No, the dead in Christ will be resurrected first. Then, those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. This is so obvious that it absolutely boggles my mind that anyone can miss it.

It lines up perfectly.

LOL. No, it does not. You are the only one I've ever seen who interprets this the way you do. Are you just that special that God would reveal the correct interpretation of that passage only to you? It's clear to me that you are making the passage say what you need it to say in order to fit your doctrine.

The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest as they were the first ripe. Israel served Baalpeor so the Gentiles become the first harvest.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Each man in his own order. The order is first fruits and they that are Christs at His coming.

1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Jesus will come for the dead in Christ first as He is the first fruits of the them that slept.

Then Christ will return for the alive that remain. The first fruits of this harvest have already occurred.

Then Christ will come for the 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. Then they that are Christs at His coming at the 6th seal will be raptured. We know what the first fruits are, so we know what the harvest is.

You are butchering that verse horribly just like you do 1 Thess 4:14-17. You're always making scripture say what you want it to say. Paul said that Christ Himself is the firstfruits in 1 Cor 15:20. The firstfruits of what? Them that slept. The dead in Christ. At His second coming, the dead in Christ will be resurrected, just as 1 Thess 4:14-17 indicates. Paul did not say anything about these other resurrections you believe in because they only come from your imagination.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Says who? Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"? You seem to make this thing up as you go. You manipulate Scripture to support your error. Like the cults, you make the Bible to say whatever you want it to say.

He's obviously just making things up to make scripture say what he wants it to say. It's sad to see so many people here who are so dishonest with scripture while just blatantly twisting it to fit their false doctrines.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@The Light says: "Jesus returns for the alive that remain." = 100% FALSE and is a COMPLETE LIE out of the mouths of men

Agree. Someone couldn't make up more ridiculous nonsense than this if they tried.

 

[David in NJ]

Agree. Someone couldn't make up more ridiculous nonsense than this if they tried.

pre-trib is pre-fib out of the mouths of men

There does not exist a single pre-trib rapture in the OT, in the Gospel in the Apostles Letters neither in Revelation

Pre-WRATH Deliverance is 100% TRUTH in the OT, in the Gospel, in the Apostles Letters, in Revelation

They are FORCED to make things up as they desperately attempt to keep it alive

 

[David in NJ]

Because they are separate events. Why would the Word say the alive the remain?

The feasts of God are a picture of the end times.



The dead in Christ rise first. The alive remain.

Jesus returns for the alive that remain. He brings the dead in Christ with Him. The alive are caught together with them in the clouds.

The dead are in the clouds already..................them in the clouds.

It lines up perfectly.

The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest as they were the first ripe. Israel served Baalpeor so the Gentiles become the first harvest.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Each man in his own order. The order is first fruits and they that are Christs at His coming.

1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Jesus will come for the dead in Christ first as He is the first fruits of the them that slept.

Then Christ will return for the alive that remain. The first fruits of this harvest have already occurred.

Then Christ will come for the 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. Then they that are Christs at His coming at the 6th seal will be raptured. We know what the first fruits are, so we know what the harvest is.

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