Book of Daniel - Relevant time periods

[Douggg]

Dougg, the 4 and only 4 kingdoms are the same as yours, and I provided the two verses in Chapter 7 that confirms there are only 4 in Chapter 2. Your 5th is part of the 4... you can not ignore (7:3, 17).

First let's deal with Chapter 2. So, could you show your four kingdoms (empires) in a list form like I did, with the corresponding verse(s).

....................................................................................a. Babylonian empire (verses 37-38) - gold
....................................................................................b. Medes-Persian empire (verse 39) - silver
....................................................................................c. Greek empire (verse 39) - brass
....................................................................................d. Roman empire (verse 40) - iron
....................................................................................e. end times empire (verse 41-45) - iron mixed with clay

My fifth is a later end times version of the fourth.

 

[CTK]

First let's deal with Chapter 2. So, could you show your four kingdoms (empires) in a list form like I did, with the corresponding verse(s).

....................................................................................a. Babylonian empire (verses 37-38) - gold
....................................................................................b. Medes-Persian empire (verse 39) - silver
....................................................................................c. Greek empire (verse 39) - brass
....................................................................................d. Roman empire (verse 40) - iron
....................................................................................e. end times empire (verse 41-45) - iron mixed with clay

My fifth is a later end times version of the fourth.

Dougg, the “dream sequence” verses provide the 4 kingdoms- verses 32 and 33. And verse 36 confirmed they are the “dream sequence” verses.

 

[Douggg]

Dougg, the “dream sequence” verses provide the 4 kingdoms- verses 32 and 33.

verses 32 and 33 do not mention the word "kingdoms". See the commas in verses 32 and 33, separating the make up of each section of the image?

Daniel 2:
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

1. his image's head was of fine gold
2. his breast and his arms of silver
3. his belly and his thighs of brass
4. His legs of iron
5. his feet part of iron and part of clay.

And verse 36 confirmed they are the “dream sequence” verses.

verse 36 is Daniel saying that he was about to give the interpretation of the dream.

---------------------------------------

show your four kingdoms (empires) in a list form like I did, with the corresponding verse(s).


....................................................................................a. Babylonian empire (verses 37-38) - gold
....................................................................................b. Medes-Persian empire (verse 39) - silver
....................................................................................c. Greek empire (verse 39) - brass
....................................................................................d. Roman empire (verse 40) - iron
....................................................................................e. end times empire (verse 41-45) - iron mixed with clay

 

[Jay Ross]

@CTK and @Douggg

You are both claiming that the Roman Empire is the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy, but does scripture confirm this POV whereas scripture does name, Babylon, the Mede/Persian Empire and the Grecian Empires, where then does scripture mention Roman or the Roman Empire? Telling us the Book chapter and verse of each occurrence would be helpful for all of our edification.

 

[Douggg]

@CTK and @Douggg

You are both claiming that the Roman Empire is the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy, but does scripture confirm this POV whereas scripture does name, Babylon, the Mede/Persian Empire and the Grecian Empires, where then does scripture mention Roman or the Roman Empire? Telling us the Book chapter and verse of each occurrence would be helpful for all of our edification.

....................................................................................a. Babylonian empire (verses 37-38) - gold
....................................................................................b. Medes-Persian empire (verse 39) - silver
....................................................................................c. Greek empire (verse 39) - brass
....................................................................................d. Roman empire (verse 40) - iron.....at the time of Jesus's First Coming
....................................................................................e. end times empire (verse 41-45) - iron mixed with clay.....at the time of Jesus's Second Coming

The term "Rome" is not in the Tanach (old testament). But historically, the people who destroyed the temple and city in Daniel 9:26, fulfilling parts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 as well, were of the Roman Empire.

 

[CTK]

@CTK and @Douggg

You are both claiming that the Roman Empire is the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy, but does scripture confirm this POV whereas scripture does name, Babylon, the Mede/Persian Empire and the Grecian Empires, where then does scripture mention Roman or the Roman Empire? Telling us the Book chapter and verse of each occurrence would be helpful for all of our edification.

You are correct. It does not name Rome, but it certainly gives us all the characteristics and attributes of Rome. It was the kingdom that was affiliated with iron weapons. It crushed everything in its path. It was the next great after Greece. It was the kingdom in place at the time the 70 weeks of years was coming to the end- when the Messiah arrived and fulfilled the prophecies in Chapter 9. It was the kingdom where the little horn came out of.

Now, please share your thoughts on the 4th kingdom. And this 4th kingdom must tie in with all the prophecies in the latter chapters of Daniel. The most important prophecy in Daniel is the 70 weeks of year’s prophecy when the Messiah would arrive… The prophecy began in 457 BC, thus it would end in 33/34AD.

 

[Douggg]

It was the kingdom where the little horn came out of.

The little horn and the 2300 days of his activities are time of the end.

Please don't get started with the pagan Rome and papal Rome assertions.

 

[Jay Ross]

....................................................................................a. Babylonian empire (verses 37-38) - gold
....................................................................................b. Medes-Persian empire (verse 39) - silver
....................................................................................c. Greek empire (verse 39) - brass
....................................................................................d. Roman empire (verse 40) - iron.....at the time of Jesus's First Coming
....................................................................................e. end times empire (verse 41-45) - iron mixed with clay.....at the time of Jesus's Second Coming

The term "Rome" is not in the Tanach (old testament). But historically, the people who destroyed the temple and city in Daniel 9:26, fulfilling parts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 as well, were of the Roman Empire.

So, the Roman Empire is not mentioned in the scriptures, and it is your private theory that the Roman Empire must be the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue.

Above I showed how Babylon was made desolate and was devastated by the Seleucid Greek Empire and scattered throughout the Seleucid Empire for a period of some 2,048 years and was remembered once more as prophetically revealed in Rev 16:17-21 in the year 1926 when the nation of Iraq was given dominion over the land of Babylon to receive God's cup of wrath once more which means that Iraq, and not the Roman Empire, is the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy.

Douggg, you are arguing against what I am posting with out any scriptural backing.

 

[Jay Ross]

It does not name Rome, but it certainly gives us all the characteristics and attributes of Rome.

That could simply be just coincidence. Other nations also exhibit the same sort of attributes.

It was the kingdom that was affiliated with iron weapons.

Another happy coincidence.

It crushed everything in its path.

Just as many other nations have crushed everything in their path. Just another coincidence.

It was the next great after Greece.

This is true but that does not mean that it followed Greece and also had dominion over the Land of Babylon.

It was the kingdom in place at the time the 70 weeks of years was coming to the end- when the Messiah arrived and fulfilled the prophecies in Chapter 9. It was the kingdom where the little horn came out of.

This is true also. but the Little Horn was also given armies from the various Greek empires to trample God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts from around the year 260 BC some 200 or so years before the roman Empire came into being. This does not mean that the Roman Empire was the fourth empire to have had dominion over the land of Babylon

Now, please share your thoughts on the 4th kingdom. And this 4th kingdom must tie in with all the prophecies in the latter chapters of Daniel.

I have already shared my thoughts on the nations that are the fourth fifth segments of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy, but it seems that you and Douggg want to hang onto the flawed understanding of the reformation fathers.

Now Chapter 7 has not any common connections with the Daniel 2 statue prophecy except that it would appear that it spans the same time period as the Daniel 2 statue prophecy spans. Daniel 8 however does not span the same three and a half ages that Daniel 2 & 7 spans but rather it only spans a time period which much shorter than two and a half ages.

Daniel 9:24-27 also spans three and a half ages with Daniel 10,11 and 12 also spanning the same three and a half ages.

I will wait on your respective responses.

Shalom

 

[CTK]

The little horn and the 2300 days of his activities are time of the end.

Please don't get started with the pagan Rome and papal Rome assertions.

First, there is no need to bring in the discussion of the 2300 days since that is in Chapter 8. It is difficult to just try and make it through Chapter 2... so let's keep with th 4 kingdom's discussion.... for now.

Secondly, please to not tell me or anyone what to think or not to think ---

 

[CTK]

That could simply be just coincidence. Other nations also exhibit the same sort of attributes.



Another happy coincidence.



Just as many other nations have crushed everything in their path. Just another coincidence.



This is true but that does not mean that it followed Greece and also had dominion over the Land of Babylon.


This is true also. but the Little Horn was also given armies from the various Greek empires to trample God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts from around the year 260 BC some 200 or so years before the roman Empire came into being. This does not mean that the Roman Empire was the fourth empire to have had dominion over the land of Babylon



I have already shared my thoughts on the nations that are the fourth fifth segments of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy, but it seems that you and Douggg want to hang onto the flawed understanding of the reformation fathers.

Now Chapter 7 has not any common connections with the Daniel 2 statue prophecy except that it would appear that it spans the same time period as the Daniel 2 statue prophecy spans. Daniel 8 however does not span the same three and a half ages that Daniel 2 & 7 spans but rather it only spans a time period which much shorter than two and a half ages.

Daniel 9:24-27 also spans three and a half ages with Daniel 10,11 and 12 also spanning the same three and a half ages.

I will wait on your respective responses.

Shalom

Jay, I thank you for taking the time to respond.... I don't see anything in your interpretations that comes out of Daniel. Sorry.

 

[CTK]

The little horn and the 2300 days of his activities are time of the end.

Please don't get started with the pagan Rome and papal Rome assertions.

Dougg, I answered your question regarding the 4 kingdoms and the verses where I pulled them from in Daniel.. I think we should pick up there -- you say 5 and I say 4... Let's try and get through this easy part of Chapter 2

 

[Douggg]

So, the Roman Empire is not mentioned in the scriptures, and it is your private theory that the Roman Empire must be the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue.

Above I showed how Babylon was made desolate and was devastated by the Seleucid Greek Empire and scattered throughout the Seleucid Empire for a period of some 2,048 years and was remembered once more as prophetically revealed in Rev 16:17-21 in the year 1926 when the nation of Iraq was given dominion over the land of Babylon to receive God's cup of wrath once more which means that Iraq, and not the Roman Empire, is the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy.

Douggg, you are arguing against what I am posting with out any scriptural backing.

Jay, that the Roman Empire was the fourth kingdom is not a private theory, but a fact of history, common knowledge, i.e. everyone knows about the Roman Empire. And there is plenty of scriptural backing as Caesar is found 24 times in the New Testament.

 

[Douggg]

Dougg, I answered your question regarding the 4 kingdoms and the verses where I pulled them from in Daniel

CTK, you never put your four kingdoms in list form, like I did, with each kingdom's associated verses. I have requested that you do this 3 or 4 times. The reason for my request is that it will expose the incorrectness of your view that there are 4 kingdoms in Daniel 2.


....................................................................................a. Babylonian empire (verses 37-38) - gold
....................................................................................b. Medes-Persian empire (verse 39) - silver
....................................................................................c. Greek empire (verse 39) - brass
....................................................................................d. Roman empire (verse 40) - iron
....................................................................................e. end times empire (verse 41-45) - iron mixed with clay

 

[CTK]

CTK, you never put your four kingdoms in list form, like I did, with each kingdom's associated verses. I have requested that you do this 3 or 4 times. The reason for my request is that it will expose the incorrectness of your view that there are 4 kingdoms in Daniel 2.


....................................................................................a. Babylonian empire (verses 37-38) - gold
....................................................................................b. Medes-Persian empire (verse 39) - silver
....................................................................................c. Greek empire (verse 39) - brass
....................................................................................d. Roman empire (verse 40) - iron
....................................................................................e. end times empire (verse 41-45) - iron mixed with clay

I provided you the verses and u told you that 32 and 33 revealed that he 4 kingdoms.. Further, I told you that Daniel specifically labeled them as “dream sequence” verses.

The verses you are referring too are not “dream sequence” verses but are referred to as “interpretation sequence” verses. They are Daniel’s “interpretations” of the dream given to Nebuchadnezzar.

Further, chapters 7 and 8 confirm there are only 4 kingdoms and the 4th is Rome. There is no 5th kingdom.

Now, it seems you have determined the 5th kingdom is one of @iron and clay” when it is a part (feet) of the 4th kingdom. And, you ignore Gabriel’s confirmation of only 4 kingdoms in Chapters 7 and 8.

And by the way, there are / were no commas in the Scriptures…

Now, please provide your verses and support for a 5th kingdom (a comma is not support).

 

[CTK]

Jay, that the Roman Empire was the fourth kingdom is not a private theory, but a fact of history, common knowledge, i.e. everyone knows about the Roman Empire. And there is plenty of scriptural backing as Caesar is found 24 times in the New Testament.

Common knowledge? What kind of a statement is that? If you look at “today’s accepted interpretations” for most of Daniel, there are at least two separate interpretations by the scholars, academics and theologians!
And Caesar is not found in Daniel.

 

[Douggg]

I provided you the verses and u told you that 32 and 33 revealed that he 4 kingdoms..

verses 32-33 listed the 5 different composition makeups of the image, separated by commas. That 5 different composition makeups were interpreted by Daniel as the 5 kingdoms.

Daniel 2:
32 This image's head was of fine gold [1], his breast and his arms of silver [2], his belly and his thighs of brass [3],
33 His legs of iron [4], his feet part of iron and part of clay [5].


1. his image's head was of fine gold
2. his breast and his arms of silver
3. his belly and his thighs of brass
4. His legs of iron
5. his feet part of iron and part of clay.

 

[Douggg]

Common knowledge? What kind of a statement is that? If you look at “today’s accepted interpretations” for most of Daniel, there are at least two separate interpretations by the scholars, academics and theologians!
And Caesar is not found in Daniel.

The messiah is found in Daniel 9. The messiah is Jesus. At the time of Jesus, Caesar was the ruling king over the Roman Empire.

 

[Douggg]

Further, chapters 7 and 8 confirm there are only 4 kingdoms and the 4th is Rome. There is no 5th kingdom.

Daniel 7 refers to the fourth kingdom being where the little horn emerges, among ten kings. Daniel 8, Gabriel told Daniel the little horn and the 2300 days related to him were time of the end.

At the time of the end, the fourth kingdom of iron will have faded away to re-emerge as a kingdom of iron and clay, indicating some parts of it in the end times will be strong, some parts weak. Thus, being a 5th kingdom, an end times version of the fourth kingdom.

That 5th kingdom has manifested itself as the EU. The EU did not exist at the time of Jesus.

We are living in the end times. In the time of the little horn and the ten kings.

 

[CTK]

Daniel 7 refers to the fourth kingdom being where the little horn emerges, among ten kings. Daniel 8, Gabriel told Daniel the little horn and the 2300 days related to him were time of the end.

At the time of the end, the fourth kingdom will have deteriorated from iron to iron and clay, indicating some parts of it in the end times will be strong, some parts weak. Thus, being a 5th kingdom end times version of the fourth kingdom.

That 5th kingdom has manifested itself as the EU. The EU did not exist at the time of Jesus.

We are living in the end times. In the time of the little horn and the ten kings.

Verses 37 to 40 specifically tell us there are 4 kingdoms. Does verse 39 mention “a 3rd kingdom?” Does verse 40 mention “a 4th kingdom?”

Do you see anywhere in Chapter 2 7 or 8 ANY mention of a 5th kingdom?