Wrath of God Falls Upon Israel (EzE)

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keithr

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It most certainly did have vowels. They are called vowel points! These are the "tittles" Jesus said that every jot and tittle were to be kept. Teh jots were the consonants and the tittles were the vowel points. That was from the beginning.
I think you are mistaken. The Old Testament Scriptures were written in Paleo-Hebrew, and Wikipedia says "Paleo-Hebrew script is an abjad of 22 consonantal letters", and that an abjad is "a writing system in which only consonants are represented, leaving the vowel sounds to be inferred by the reader. This contrasts with alphabets, which provide graphemes for both consonants and vowels". Wikipedia also says:

After the Talmud, various regional literary dialects of Medieval Hebrew evolved. The most important is Tiberian Hebrew or Masoretic Hebrew, a local dialect of Tiberias in Galilee that became the standard for vocalizing the Hebrew Bible and thus still influences all other regional dialects of Hebrew. This Tiberian Hebrew from the 7th to 10th century CE is sometimes called "Biblical Hebrew" because it is used to pronounce the Hebrew Bible; however, properly it should be distinguished from the historical Biblical Hebrew of the 6th century BCE, whose original pronunciation must be reconstructed. Tiberian Hebrew incorporates the scholarship of the Masoretes (from masoret meaning "tradition"), who added vowel points and grammar points to the Hebrew letters to preserve much earlier features of Hebrew, for use in chanting the Hebrew Bible. The Masoretes inherited a biblical text whose letters were considered too sacred to be altered, so their markings were in the form of pointing in and around the letters. The Syriac alphabet, precursor to the Arabic alphabet, also developed vowel pointing systems around this time. The Aleppo Codex, a Hebrew Bible with the Masoretic pointing, was written in the 10th century, likely in Tiberias, and survives into the present day. It is perhaps the most important Hebrew manuscript in existence.​

So the Hebrew vowel points were not invented until at least the 7th century AD.

Concerning "jot and tittle", a jot is referring to the smallest Hebrew letter (y) and tittle is a very small part of a letter, like the dot of an 'i' in the English alphabet. Vincent's Word Studies says:

Jot is for jod, the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet. Tittle is the little bend or point which serves to distinguish certain Hebrew letters of similar appearance.​

Barnes' Notes says:

One tittle - The word used here, in the Greek, means literally a little horn, then a point, an extremity. Several of the Hebrew letters were written with small points or apices, as in the Hebrew letter, shin (שׁ sh), or the Hebrew letter, sin (שׂ s), which serve to distinguish one letter from another. To change a small point of one letter, therefore, might vary the meaning of a word, and destroy the sense.​

So Jesus was saying that the tiniest part of the law would not change. He was not talking about consonants and vowels. To quote a more modern translation, Matthew 5:18 (WEB):

(18) For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.​
 

Taken

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Wrath of God Falls Upon Israel (EzE)

In brief…
DURING the last days Tribulations sent down from Heaven upon the Earth….

The wrath of the Lamb falls upon anyone who has rejected the Lamb of God.

The wrath of the devil falls upon anyone who rejects the devil.

The wrath of God falls upon anyone who rejects God.

All of ISRAEL has not, will not, Reject God.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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MatthewG

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There is only the Wrath of God, I learned about in the bible. It's held in a cup, like a cup of sugar. Poured out, and never poured to fill it back up again.

Unless you can bring up some scripture.






I sat and went through it all myself Concerning the cup.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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There is only the Wrath of God, I learned about in the bible. It's held in a cup, like a cup of sugar. Poured out, and never poured to fill it back up again.
Whose wrath and against whom you believe it's directed is WHERE YOU ERR.
JESUS SECOND COMING (soon) is with wrath against all those nations who come against Israel.


I sat and went through it all myself Concerning the cup.
More study for you. Have a cup of coffee with some sugar too.
Ezek.37:21 - Describes the gathering of Israel after being scattered throughout the world in 70 AD; then being gathered again back to their homeland after 1878 years. >>>1948<<<

Zech 12:3 describes the Great Tribulation just about upon them where ten nations attack Israel.

Zech. 12:9-10 describes the Second Coming. Jesus destroys (in His wrath btw) those nations who come against Jerusalem. And every eye sees Him ( those who pierced Him), they mourn and realize their big mistake and believe. This passage supports Rom. 11, where a remnant Jewish population will be saved.

In
Zech. 14, The Day of the Lord is described.
1. Spoils are divided - therefore not destroyed. Which brings to mind Jesus words: the meek shall inherit the earth.
2. God gathers nations against Jerusalem.
3. The city is taken.
4. "The remnant of the people shall not be cut off".
5. The Lord fights against those nations. 6.His feet stand on the Mount of Olives! The mountain splits.
7. Probably nuclear war (vs. 12)
8. Light will be diminished in those days.
9. Living water will flow out of Jerusalem (after they experiencing waters of death, poisoned during the GT).
10. Waters turn to blood, 1/3 of the fish died. So now life comes back.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zech.” 14:2-4

>>> 10 nations come against Israel, likely Iran, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Lebonon, Libya, Palestinians, or Ethiopia, or Pakistan.


AND BTW ... The name, LORD JESUS, is above all under Heaven, ON EARTH!
OUR Father wants us to glorify His Son as He does and the Holy Spirit does as well.
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

>>> And most importantly,

YHWH ( Who spoke to Moses in Exodus 3:14)
is the pre-incarnate Jesus,
the Creator
(Col. 1:16,17)
 
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Ronald Nolette

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I think you are mistaken. The Old Testament Scriptures were written in Paleo-Hebrew, and Wikipedia says "Paleo-Hebrew script is an abjad of 22 consonantal letters", and that an abjad is "a writing system in which only consonants are represented, leaving the vowel sounds to be inferred by the reader. This contrasts with alphabets, which provide graphemes for both consonants and vowels". Wikipedia also says:

After the Talmud, various regional literary dialects of Medieval Hebrew evolved. The most important is Tiberian Hebrew or Masoretic Hebrew, a local dialect of Tiberias in Galilee that became the standard for vocalizing the Hebrew Bible and thus still influences all other regional dialects of Hebrew. This Tiberian Hebrew from the 7th to 10th century CE is sometimes called "Biblical Hebrew" because it is used to pronounce the Hebrew Bible; however, properly it should be distinguished from the historical Biblical Hebrew of the 6th century BCE, whose original pronunciation must be reconstructed. Tiberian Hebrew incorporates the scholarship of the Masoretes (from masoret meaning "tradition"), who added vowel points and grammar points to the Hebrew letters to preserve much earlier features of Hebrew, for use in chanting the Hebrew Bible. The Masoretes inherited a biblical text whose letters were considered too sacred to be altered, so their markings were in the form of pointing in and around the letters. The Syriac alphabet, precursor to the Arabic alphabet, also developed vowel pointing systems around this time. The Aleppo Codex, a Hebrew Bible with the Masoretic pointing, was written in the 10th century, likely in Tiberias, and survives into the present day. It is perhaps the most important Hebrew manuscript in existence.​

So the Hebrew vowel points were not invented until at least the 7th century AD.

Concerning "jot and tittle", a jot is referring to the smallest Hebrew letter (y) and tittle is a very small part of a letter, like the dot of an 'i' in the English alphabet. Vincent's Word Studies says:

Jot is for jod, the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet. Tittle is the little bend or point which serves to distinguish certain Hebrew letters of similar appearance.​

Barnes' Notes says:

One tittle - The word used here, in the Greek, means literally a little horn, then a point, an extremity. Several of the Hebrew letters were written with small points or apices, as in the Hebrew letter, shin (שׁ sh), or the Hebrew letter, sin (שׂ s), which serve to distinguish one letter from another. To change a small point of one letter, therefore, might vary the meaning of a word, and destroy the sense.​

So Jesus was saying that the tiniest part of the law would not change. He was not talking about consonants and vowels. To quote a more modern translation, Matthew 5:18 (WEB):

(18) For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.​
Well here I will trust Rabbinic historians and hebrew Scholars over Wiki. But yes the alphabet is 22 consnants. the vowels are demonstrated by the vowel points.

And I swapped jot and tittle. Tittles are th e vowel points found under and above Hebrew Words.


Goes into gresat detail ( you have to scroll down) on the fact the vowel points are ancinet.

Even modern Judaism is divided. The conservative or more modern hold to the Masoretic beginnings, While the orthodox hold to the aqncvinet origins. I hold to the ancient, the arguments are much stronger.

But no matter which is true- to say the divine name is Yahavah as you contend comes from a Masoretic beginning (8th century AD) which is far newer that th eancinet language- thus a man made decision.
 

MatthewG

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Thank you for everyone sharing their differing views and beliefs!


I don’t view or believe exactly like everyone else, I just kind of get what I gleen from the Bible and go with that, typically coming to an end, of the Mosaic age in 70Ad.


Always capable of being wrong, but that’s cause I’m a fallible human just as anyone else!

Blessing to all.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Figures, we challenge you with scriptures proving you wrong and you retreat and end the thread. That's typical, your, "Thank you all for your contributuon ... just wanted to get my uneducated opinion ( which me thinks is valuable) in ... but as usual it's getting to difficult now for me ... so I have to leave." You seem to escape many of your threads this way ... "Thank you all, but gotta go, God Bless."
If you are going to start a thread, know that it will be challenged and you better be prepared. Or at least submit the thread in a different way, open for discussion, with an uncertain opinion, a willingness to learn. Not, "I sat and went through it all myself Concerning the cup".
You didn't go through it all, nor do you understand it all!
 

MatthewG

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Uh, I don’t agree with your view Ronlad, I could listen to you all day about your ideas. I don’t have accept. Thank you again, and if that’s not good enough for you. Sorry.

I continue to maintain what I’ve shared in the original post.

You made your beliefs, and views clear. Looking for transparency!

Everyone wanna debate but debates are two arguments.

Love to you sir, our knowledge doesn’t mean anything, but our faith is everything to Yahavah!!

Blessings.
 

Jack

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Everything I see concerning Jerusalem(s) demise, concerning 70. I tend to find in the Old Testament…

Like Gods wrath falling upon the house of Israel… a material onslaught to be seen.

Just as Yahavah filled the temple with smoke to be “seen” and out of the chute many would praise the LORD for the forgiveness of sin, when they had those times.

View attachment 49695
Ain't no Yahavah in the Bible Matt! Why must you attack our Christian Bible and Israel just like the Devil???
 

MatthewG

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Jack, you continue to be on ignore. Love you though and you’re more than welcome to post and share what you would like! You also have a good rest of your day!

Blessings sir!
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Uh, I don’t agree with your view Ronlad, I could listen to you all day about your ideas. I don’t have accept. Thank you again, and if that’s not good enough for you. Sorry.

I continue to maintain what I’ve shared in the original post.

You made your beliefs, and views clear. Looking for transparency!

Everyone wanna debate but debates are two arguments.

Love to you sir, our knowledge doesn’t mean anything, but our faith is everything to Yahavah!!

Blessings.
Praise Jesus!
 
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keithr

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Goes into gresat detail ( you have to scroll down) on the fact the vowel points are ancinet.
That's a link to my post! I think you've made another mistake.
 

Ronald Nolette

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That's a link to my post! I think you've made another mistake.
Well whether I made a mistake or no on that, Hebrews used vowel pointrs from the beginning, unless you believe Jewish rabbinic Scholars do not know their own language.
 

Bob Estey

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Everything I see concerning Jerusalem(s) demise, concerning 70. I tend to find in the Old Testament…

Like Gods wrath falling upon the house of Israel… a material onslaught to be seen.

Just as Yahavah filled the temple with smoke to be “seen” and out of the chute many would praise the LORD for the forgiveness of sin, when they had those times.

View attachment 49695
This is the way I look at it: The Israelis are the Lord's chosen race. That means that when they do his will, the Lord blesses them. When they don't do his will, he withholds his blessing. He does this for all the world to see.
 
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keithr

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Well whether I made a mistake or no on that, Hebrews used vowel pointrs from the beginning, unless you believe Jewish rabbinic Scholars do not know their own language.
That's not what I find when I do Internet searches, e.g. I quickly found this (Where did the vowels come from in the Hebrew Bible?):

I read a lot and studied - and I take Judaism seriously. Upvoted by Roy Mitchell, Ph.D. ABD Anthropology & Linguistics, University of California, Berkeley (1989). Author has 22.7K answers and 54M answer views.​

The vowel SOUNDS were always there (and still are). They just aren’t present as visible LETTERS.​

A consonant heavy language can get along fine without using letters for vowel sounds (obviously, because they DO).​

In fact, you can even do a reasonably good job with ENGLISH, if you leave out the vowel sounds - IF (and this is important) if you know the language.​

Fr xmpl ths sntnc hs n vwls yt mst plpl cn rd ths.​

Did you have a LOT of trouble with that sentence? Probably not (and probably a lot LESS, if English spelling was more phonetic than it is).​

As for ‘where did the vowels come from’ - we have a group of people known as ‘the masoretes’ to thank for the vowelization of ancient Hebrew texts.​

And they did it for EXACTLY the reason we should expect: most Jews no longer spoke Hebrew daily, and were becoming less familiar with the language.​

What the Masoretes did - and where we get the ‘Masoretic text’ - is take the actual ancient text itself, which had been around already by a thousand years - and simply made up - CREATED - tiny symbols to represent the vowel sounds, which THEY knew, because they were, themselves, the people who were very familiar with the text, and also were fluent (therefore) with the Hebrew of the texts.​

So it was no big deal for them, to take ‘xmpl’ and create a little symbol for the initial ‘eh’ sound, and little symbol for the middle ‘a’ sound…and they placed these ABOVE or BELOW the letters, because NO WAY were they going to mess with the actual TEXT.​

By the way, in modern Hebrew, those vowel markings are only added in CHILDREN’S books, when they are LEARNING. Once they know how to read, those ‘assistants’ are no longer used.​

You find vowel markings in Hebrew texts only in children’s books, in adult learning texts, and in things like Bibles (Tanakh) and Siddurim (prayerbooks). They are a crutch for the Hebrew learner, the beginner, children and people unfamiliar with those texts.​

Advanced readers don’t need them.​

You see vowel markings in things like newspapers and magazines, mainly for FOREIGN words imported into Hebrew, or foreign names.​

Also this very good web page - The Hebrew vowels. You probably won't bother to read that web page so I'll just quote a couple of sentences from it:

Finally, a group of scribes, called Masoretes, who knew the Hebrew language and the biblical text very well, took action to preserve the pronunciation of the Hebrew and the correct understanding of the biblical scriptures. This occurred more or less around the sixth century.​

Everything I'm finding seems to agree that the vowel points were invented by the Masoretes around the 6th century AD, and I haven't found any evidence that the vowel points existed from the beginning.

If you watched the whole of the first video that I linked to you will know that if you simply pronounce the Hebrew letters represented by YHVH then it will sound like Yahava.
 
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Jack

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They worshiped the Law… it was their god. All while ignoring Yahavah the God who lead them out of egypt*.

Jesus went into temples and learned the torah. He learned the Law and kept it fully.

Reading the Bible really helps…
Yahavah? Ain't no Yahavah in the Bible!
 

Ronald Nolette

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I read a lot and studied - and I take Judaism seriously. Upvoted by Roy Mitchell, Ph.D. ABD Anthropology & Linguistics, University of California, Berkeley (1989). Author has 22.7K answers and 54M answer views.
The vowel SOUNDS were always there (and still are). They just aren’t present as visible LETTERS.
A consonant heavy language can get along fine without using letters for vowel sounds (obviously, because they DO).
In fact, you can even do a reasonably good job with ENGLISH, if you leave out the vowel sounds - IF (and this is important) if you know the language.
Fr xmpl ths sntnc hs n vwls yt mst plpl cn rd ths.
Did you have a LOT of trouble with that sentence? Probably not (and probably a lot LESS, if English spelling was more phonetic than it is).
Two fallacies you have here.

One we all can easily read that sentence because qwe know what the vowels should be because we have been brought up with them.

If one never knew the English language and tried to decipher this, they would have an impossible task if they never learned the vowels.

Second fallacy. Hebrew today does not have vowels. Just like the Hebrew of old. They use vowel points!!!

Example: Original Word: כִּפֻּר is pronounced Kippur or kaphar (depending on construct of sentence. There are no vowels, but vowel points!

They are those little dots under the word which gives it the vowels needed.
 

MatthewG

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Yahavah poured out the wrath which was in the cup, upon Israel for their disobedience.



Radical. Some just think God is straight up evil... for the things he allows to happen, or causes to happen for disobedience (by virtue of a covenant.)




Yahavah, makes the decisions, and his ways, are for a purpose.

@Jack @keithr @Ronald Nolette does the name of God matter to you? If it does or don't this is not the place to have the conversation. Many traditionally just worship how they will, I have no issues or battles to fight on it. Please stop commenting here, or ill just have you barred from posting here on this specific thread.



Thanks if you listen, thanks if you do not.
,Respectfully,
Matthew
 

Jack

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Yahavah poured out the wrath which was in the cup, upon Israel for their disobedience.
What is yahavah? Is that something you made up? It sure ain't in the Bible!
 
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