It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[grafted branch]

but it is yet future. so it does not fit the timing of the cross..

So if you were martyred and found yourself under the altar, would you ask the Lord “how long”? If so why would you ask a question that you already know the answer to?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who and what is the first resurrection?

lol. here we go again.

Show me where I am in error. show me where the things I said and the verses i used are in error.

You seem to have forgot what the discussion is about. here let me help you

The problem with those who reject premill. is they do what they claim others do

Rev 20 occures after the great tribulation. After the return of Christ, and after the reign of Christ on this earth.

Can you prove this wrong?

Either you can or you can not. I think I have shown at least twice now that this is correct. Can you refute it?

 

[Marty fox]

The rider on the white horse is the Antichrist. He is GIVEN the stephanos crown, leaf crown of victory. This is the symbol of the UN. The rider on the white horse carries a bow. The bow is what the false savior Tammuz carries. Tammuz is Horus. That is the eye of Horus on the back of a dollar bill. None of the seals are opened. Horus is Apollo.

View attachment 49863

Do a quick study and read the only 4 verses in the entire bible that mentions antichrist in John's epistles and see if this matches John's description of the antichrist.

 

[The Light]

The church will be raptured.

the church includes jew and gentile

There are certainly a sprinkling of Jews in the Church. Most have not had their blindness removed and will not until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

No. Her seed would be in this context the gentile believers who came to christ at this time.

Who is of the 12 tribes of Israel. They are not Gentiles. What makes a person a Jew?(twelve tribes of Israel) A person is considered a Jew if the mother is a Jew. It is the seed of the woman that determines if a person is a Jew. The seed of the woman Israel is the Jews (twelve tribes) across the earth. They keep the commandments of God and WILL HAVE the testimony of Jesus. There are two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests.

the 144000 or just 144000 jewish missionaries called out. there are many more who have believed who have been put to death and many more who are still living

yes, 144000 from the tribes of Israel. who were called out for a purpose. to go across the earth and spread the gospel.

The 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest. Those of Israel were supposed to be the first harvest, but they served Baalpeor. The Jews become the second harvest. The fig tree has two harvests

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The purpose of the 144,000 is not to spread the Gospel, though certainly they will. There purpose is to be the first fruits of the second harves. The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest, but they the Jews served Baalpeor

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There are certainly a sprinkling of Jews in the Church. Most have not had their blindness removed and will not until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

yes. But that does nt mean the jews today will nto be raptured.

 

[The Light]

Do a quick study and read the only 4 verses in the entire bible that mentions antichrist in John's epistles and see if this matches John's description of the antichrist.

Would you feel better if we called him the man of sin?

So the rider on the white horse in the 1st seal is the man of sin. He is the false Messiah depicted as Horus on the back of the dollar bill. This is actually Tammuz of Babylon.

Ezekiel 8
13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.

14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

 

[The Light]

yes. But that does nt mean the jews today will nto be raptured.

There will be a small percentage that are raptured with the Church. Then God turns His attention to the Jews as the 70th week of Daniel begins. The 7 seals will be opened one at a time.

There is another rapture at the 6th seal. This is why there are 144,000 first fruits. They are the first fruits of the second harvest.

 

[jeffweeder]

Matt 24 : 9 - 13 is not even during the trib period. it is the time period of the last days. or as many call it birth pangs

How can it not be the trib period???
It runs to the very end of the age.


9 “Then they will hand you over to [endure] tribulation, and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will be offended and repelled [by their association with Me] and will fall away [from the One whom they should trust] and will betray one another [handing over believers to their persecutors] and will hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will appear and mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, the love of most people will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures and bears up [under suffering] to the end will be saved. 14 This good news of the kingdom [the gospel] will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end [of the age] will come.

When is your pre trib period? Before or after the birth pangs?
One must endure suffering before the end comes, not hope for a get out of tribulation free card.

What makes the Generation prior to the end so special that they get to escape tribulation, suffering and even death that came upon all previous generations of brothers and sisters?

 

[Marty fox]

Would you feel better if we called him the man of sin?

So the rider on the white horse in the 1st seal is the man of sin. He is the false Messiah depicted as Horus on the back of the dollar bill. This is actually Tammuz of Babylon.

Ezekiel 8
13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.

14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

What I am saying is that the antichrist has a completely different description of what you say here, and John even gives the antichrist a different purpose thus they are different entities.

Do you ever wonder why John doesn't use the term antichrist in revelation? Especially that John is the only biblical writer in the entire bible to use the term antichrist.

 

[WPM]

Actually you do this

Your passages did not adress it, if it did, it would also adress this passage.

so you can either tell me when these things happened. or where they are happening, or all the verses you posted are meaninlgess and taken out of context.

the bible agrees with itself. it does not contradict itself

I showed you Christ's reign is ongoing since His ascent. I gave you hard Scripture. Your evasive replies show you have no rebuttal to this.

 

[WPM]

lol. here we go again.

Show me where I am in error. show me where the things I said and the verses i used are in error.

You seem to have forgot what the discussion is about. here let me help you

Can you prove this wrong?

Either you can or you can not. I think I have shown at least twice now that this is correct. Can you refute it?

You avoid every request (as do all your Pretrib brethren). You are all scared of the Op because it demolishes your error.

You are rejecting a fundamental truth in Christendom: that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

 

[WPM]

There will be a small percentage that are raptured with the Church. Then God turns His attention to the Jews as the 70th week of Daniel begins. The 7 seals will be opened one at a time.

There is another rapture at the 6th seal. This is why there are 144,000 first fruits. They are the first fruits of the second harvest.

Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

 

[WPM]

There are certainly a sprinkling of Jews in the Church. Most have not had their blindness removed and will not until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

In the light of the introduction of the new covenant, and within a New Testament context, Paul takes time to examine the whole dynamic between national Israel and God’s righteous remnant. Romans 11:25-29 tells us: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

This is a passage that has confused many Christians over the years. The reason for this seems to revolve around the phrase “all Israel shall be saved.” There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

Let us be absolutely assured: Paul is definitely not opposing himself, neither is the Holy Spirit, who inspired him to pen this, confused. He is in no way teaching corporate salvation in Romans 11:25-29, as some would suggest, or else he would be reversing everything he has just taught in the preceding verses and chapters of this book (and his other Epistles) in regard to an elect remnant. Salvation was never secured on the grounds of race; it was always by grace through faith. Moreover, the Gospel opportunity in the New Testament is always shown to be open to all nationalities equally; this includes natural Israel.

The first thing we need to realize here is that Paul opens up his teaching here by initially speaking about ethnic Israel. He then differentiates between the unbelieving element of Israel and the believing component.

In Romans 11:25-29, Paul is basically summing up everything he has just said previous in Romans 9–11, in regard to there being a chosen remnant within natural Israel that will be brought through in this intra-Advent period (while the Gentiles were being brought in). He saw a day when all that belonged to true Israel would finally be completed. That is why he uses the future tense. Greg L. Bahnsen submits: “God’s covenant promise never guaranteed salvation for all of ethnic Israel, says Paul, but it did provide for the inclusion of the Gentiles in salvation” (Gospel Prosperity and the Future of Israel).

Dispensationalists fail to notice (or choose to ignore) Romans 9:6-13. There, Paul identifies who “all Israel” is: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

 

[IndianaRob]

The interesting thing about John the Baptist is that he seems to fit the description of the two witnesses fairly well, although not quite enough to draw a definitive conclusion. Maybe JtB was a type?

The two witnesses are still a mystery to me but I agree this could be correct but it’s not enough to draw a definitive conclusion.

Here’s what I have on JtB and the two witnesses if you’re interested …

Yes I’m interested, thanks!

Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias but in John 1:21 JtB answers “no” when asked if he is Elias. In some kind of way JtB is a single person that represents 2 people, himself and Elijah.

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Mathew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison (war), Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ (overcome), and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded (killed).

I can’t say I disagree but If John the Baptist is one witness who’s dead body lay in the street then who would the other witness be?

Revelation 11:9-10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded during Herod’s birthday party which could be what making merry and sending gifts is referring to.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the Spirit of life enters into them and they stand on their feet. In Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection (3 ½ days?) the graves are opened and the bodies of the saints arose. It is possible that JtB was one of the saints that arose at that time.

I’ve been trying to tie the resurrection of the two witnesses to the resurrection of the OT saints for years and I still think it is tied but honestly I can’t so that’s true for sure. Like I said earlier, the two witnesses are still a mystery to me.

I like your way of thinking and maybe something will come up in one of these threads that’ll nail it down for us.

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes, but not everyone who dies and went to heaven were killed. they also had not yet had their white robes, if you look in chapter 4. they not only had their crowns, but their robes.. These people had already been ressurected and judged

Show me in the Bible where getting killed prevents you from going to the same heaven that all of us go to.

Is the alter in heaven?

No the alter’s not in heaven. The alter was the cross where the true lambs blood was shed.

Under the alter is literally what was under the cross, the “heart of the earth” where the OT saints were.

 

[IndianaRob]

The rider on the white horse is the Antichrist. He is GIVEN the stephanos crown, leaf crown of victory. This is the symbol of the UN. The rider on the white horse carries a bow. The bow is what the false savior Tammuz carries. Tammuz is Horus. That is the eye of Horus on the back of a dollar bill. None of the seals are opened. Horus is Apollo.

View attachment 49863

You’re welcome to your belief but I don’t agree.

 

[IndianaRob]

But its not OT saints, it is those who have been killed for their testimoney

it is the people in the previous verses who will be killed

rev 6: 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

I don’t follow your argument here sorry.

 

[The Light]

What I am saying is that the antichrist has a completely different description of what you say here, and John even gives the antichrist a different purpose thus they are different entities.

Ok. You want to call the rider on the white horse the Beast of the Earth, I'm good with it.

Do you ever wonder why John doesn't use the term antichrist in revelation? Especially that John is the only biblical writer in the entire bible to use the term antichrist.

No, I have never wondered that. John gets a vision, and he sees a rider on a white horse going forth conquering and to conquer. He is given a stephanos crown......the symbol of the UN and is carrying a bow, the same thing that the false Messiah carries.

 

[Marty fox]

The two witnesses are still a mystery to me but I agree this could be correct but it’s not enough to draw a definitive conclusion.

Yes I’m interested, thanks!

I can’t say I disagree but If John the Baptist is one witness who’s dead body lay in the street then who would the other witness be?

I’ve been trying to tie the resurrection of the two witnesses to the resurrection of the OT saints for years and I still think it is tied but honestly I can’t so that’s true for sure. Like I said earlier, the two witnesses are still a mystery to me.

I like your way of thinking and maybe something will come up in one of these threads that’ll nail it down for us.

The two witnesses are the Law and the Prophets that pointed and witnessed to Jesus

See what Jesus says here

The Rich Man and Lazarus​

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Jesus here predicted His death and resurrection and that He would still be rejected even after He rose.

Jesus also told us that all the Jews need to see that He is the Messiah is the Law and the Prophets and that He wouldn't be sending anyone back from the dead because they still won't believe.

 

[The Light]

You’re welcome to your belief but I don’t agree.

Thanks Indian aRob.

You must not be a Democrat.