Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

[Beebster]

Wow. Thank you.
What a wonderful post.

Tribalism is a terrible scourge on the church.

Doctrinolatry - tribalism and division in the Body of Christ​

A follow-up to my Bibliolatry topic. Doctrine becomes an idol when it is used to support tribalism and cause division in the Body of Christ. Since doctrinal unity is impossible, allowing others to hold their own doctrinal opinions may be the only way to prevent division.

Unity in exclusivity is mere tribalism - Nothing special there​

...happen. What they really want is for everyone to JOIN their doctrinal tribe so that UNITY will happen. Basically unity through division. Tribalism. You are in if you agree, and out if you don't. I think it is wrong to label that as unity, as if tribalism is a virtue. I think unity of the...

[

Yup. Pick a team.

So the last shall be first (God's Elect), and the first last (the man made church): for many be called (the man made church - tribalism full of false docrtines), but FEW CHOSEN (God's Elect). (Mat 20:16)

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her (the man made church, the many called), my people (God's Elect), that ye be not partakers of her sins (physical rituals), and that ye receive not of her plagues (false doctrines). (Rev 18:4)

 

[Beebster]

Yes, agree symbolism is everywhere but in the background real events are being foretold and the raising up of the dead is one of those events.

Most of those real events take place within us as we die daily.

The sea represents the Nations from which the dead shall rise - thats the connection if you didn't see it?

The sea is "humanity" as in the sea of humanity. And if the sea represents humanity what do you suppose the earth represents? What about heaven; what does heaven represent?

Those who were raised were not raised to immortality but they returned to the grave to await judgement which will happen at the house of God first.

F2F

They all went back to the grave. That's just a foreshadow of the second death.

Judgement is already happening at the house of God.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1Pe 4:17)

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (Mat 5:30)

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee)
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
(1Co 11:31-32)

 

[Beebster]

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (Joh_6:63)

Red is the Power! The Spoken Word and dont forget that!

Perhaps you should start treating those words as such.

Gen 2:7 cont.
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;

You take those powerful words and trample them with:

Yes, and God kick started it with a simple breath! nothing more and nothing less than a breath.

Wow! God’s life giving spirit is nothing more than a simple breath to you?

For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. Eccl 3:19

Rather than understand that man is nothing more than a beast and that without the breath of Life nothing lives, you take those powerful, spiritual words and turn them into physical nonsense:

My dog and I breath exactly the same way!...no difference - her breath smells more than mine ;)


No different to the animals!

Do you think my grandson’s pet goldfish breathes the same way as you and your dog?

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Act 17:28)

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom 11:36)

Yes, the soul, be it life or character and body are all one! If you are trying to force some ethereal spirit which wafts off to God when a person dies you are wasting your time, I've search hard for that doctrine and it is not there!

Well you didn’t search very hard then:

Then shall the dust return to the earth AS IT WAS: and the spirit shall return unto God WHO GAVE IT. (Ecc 12:7)

When God takes that life giving spirit back, the one you call "nothing more and nothing less than a breath" our bodies die and our souls die. The body returns to dust and the soul is placed in sheol/hades “the state of death.”

 

[Beebster]

Flesh and soul are one and the same - your argument has been very poorly put together! Soul is just another word for body, life, person etc etc

If by flesh you mean the carnal mind then yes. But if you mean your physical body, absolutely not.

Beebster said: I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. (1Co 15:31)

Meaning he suffers for Christ daily!

Again you take the power of the Word and corrupt it; you can't get past the physical.

Paul is not speaking of his physical body he’s speaking of his soul, his character, his mental and moral qualities.

Correct...but you have made no point at all only that he suffers daily for Christ - this has nothing to so with God raising people from the grave in their flesh nature and changing them.

Oh but you err.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom 6:6)

Paul was being judged and dying the second death.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do MORTIFY (to kill – put to death) the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Rom 8:3)

Those deeds of the body come from the soul.

 

[face2face]

Why what?

I was casting the pearl!

 

[face2face]

Perhaps you should start treating those words as such.

I'm showing you but you keep ignoring them!

You take those powerful words and trample them with:

Wow! God’s life giving spirit is nothing more than a simple breath to you?

So you agree you share the same breath as the animal kingdom? Your end is the same also?
Be good to see you actually adhere to the wisdom of the text for once than trying to force your notions upon it.

Rather than understand that man is nothing more than a beast and that without the breath of Life nothing lives, you take those powerful, spiritual words and turn them into physical nonsense:

Do you think my grandson’s pet goldfish breathes the same way as you and your dog?

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Act 17:28)

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom 11:36)

So here you are speaking to the mind, are you not? Character and purpose which is housed in a body of flesh and blood.

Let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus....

Are you speaking to thoughts Beebster? Spiritual thoughts?

Well you didn’t search very hard then:

Then shall the dust return to the earth AS IT WAS: and the spirit shall return unto God WHO GAVE IT. (Ecc 12:7)

Correct, the body returns to the grave and the last breath is Gods also!

The word "spirit" (Hebrew "ruach") is the same as in Ecc 3:19 (Heb. "ruach", translated "breath") could any argue that beasts have, or are, immortal "spirits"?

The problem is with you B. and not the Word - you are just not able to interpret it correctly.

3:19 For the fate of humans and the fate of animals are the same: As one dies, so dies the other; both have the same breath. There is no advantage for humans over animals, for both are fleeting. 3:20 Both go to the same place, both come from the dust, and to dust both return. Ec 3:19–20.

The Bible could not make this any clearer for you

Do you think you have an advantage B?

When God takes that life giving spirit back, the one you call "nothing more and nothing less than a breath" our bodies die and our souls die. The body returns to dust and the soul is placed in sheol/hades “the state of death.”

As I said to your earlier if you want all the references to the study of the word Soul let me know but your wasting your time pushing that wheelbarrow.

Do you know I've given you clear and concise evidence every time in all our discussions and not once have you said "thats correct"...you have imported error into your faith and its playing havoc with your "hearing" of the Word.

F2F

 

[face2face]

If by flesh you mean the carnal mind then yes. But if you mean your physical body, absolutely not.

Carnal mind is the voice of flesh - you cannot separate them!

Impossible - the source of temptation is the flesh and in the mind its thinking is styled carnal, fleshly, evil etc.

This is why Christ allowed himself to the that body on a pole - it cannot be fixed - only put to death.

Again you take the power of the Word and corrupt it; you can't get past the physical.


Oh but you err.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom 6:6)

Correct, the body of sin as I've just said LOL needs to be destroyed and when its "changed" this will be the destroying act. Remember Pauls words "put on", when divine nature is put on in the twinkling of an eye the body of death is swallowed up of life. A powerful image of victory is it not?

Paul was being judged and dying the second death.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do MORTIFY (to kill – put to death) the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Rom 8:3)

Those deeds of the body come from the soul.

The deeds of the body come from the flesh!

Mark 7:21-23 For from within, out of the heart (mind) of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

James 1:14-15 but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death.

What is a believer to do?

The Apostle Paul in Galatians 5:24 writes, “And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” Why is it important to “crucify the flesh. and how do we “crucify the flesh?” Scripture explains Scripture.

Soul is characterized in many ways in the Bible but NEVER an ethereal spirit that lives on after death - NEVER!

So many Christians in this forum have tried over the years to prove it and not one has ever done so - even some of the veterans here will openly acknowledge its not in the Bible

F2F

 

[Beebster]

Soul is characterized in many ways in the Bible but NEVER an ethereal spirit that lives on after death - NEVER!

Have you ever once seen me state that man has an immortal soul?

I think you are confusing the soul and the spirit.

 

[face2face]

Have you ever once seen me state that man has an immortal soul?

I think you are confusing the soul and the spirit.

Explain clearly what you think a soul is...if soul is your issue we are better to focus on its true meaning!

 

[Beebster]

Explain clearly what you think a soul is...if soul is your issue we are better to focus on its true meaning!

Your soul is your heart and mind. Where your feelings and emotions and thoughts live. Your soul is you.

 

[face2face]

Your soul is your heart and mind. Where your feelings and emotions and thoughts live. Your soul is you.

Soul in the Bible is clearly defined for you as:

A Soul can be born
A Soul can live
A Soul can eat & drink
A Soul can die
A Soul can be raised from death / grave

Which one would you like to focus on first?

F2F

 

[Beebster]

Soul in the Bible is clearly defined for you as:

A Soul can be born
A Soul can live
A Soul can eat & drink
A Soul can die
A Soul can be raised from death / grave

Which one would you like to focus on first?

F2F

Take your pick

 

[face2face]

Take your pick

Souls Born

נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh;, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)

And these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls. Gen 46:18

Newer translations understand the meaning of souls so they interpret the word out.

She bore these to Jacob, sixteen in all NET

The word soul more than not encapsulates the entire person.

If you think the soul is something which lives on and is seperate to the body you are in error.

F2F

 

[Beebster]

Souls Born

נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh;, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)

You obviously think that the soul must be a PYSICAL breathing creature else why emphasize “a breathing creature.”

I’ve already shown you that even God has a soul (Lev 26:1 - Jer 32:41) and that God does not have a physical body (1 Tim 1:17 – Col 1:16)

Would you like to try proving that God the Father is a physical creature?

And these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls. Gen 46:18

Newer translations understand the meaning of souls so they interpret the word out.

She bore these to Jacob, sixteen in all NET

The word soul more than not encapsulates the entire person.

It seems you’re trying to prove that the soul must be born into a physical body.

Again, God the Father has a soul and he was not born into a physical body, nor created.

Yes, some souls are born of women, but ask yourself, when does that soul come into existence?

Did Jesus Christs’ soul exist prior to being born of a woman?

When does God breath that “breath of life” into us so that we become a living soul?

If you think the soul is something which lives on and is seperate to the body you are in error.

F2F

Why you keep on about immortal souls is beyond me.

You don't need to prove to me that the soul is mortal; I am well aware of that and have stated several times that the soul dies. I have also quoted scripture to prove it.

Either you're copying and pasting from a study, not reading my posts or your comprehension skills are weak.

 

[face2face]

You obviously think that the soul must be a PYSICAL breathing creature else why emphasize “a breathing creature.”

But only one of the meanings of Soul as I have shown you previously.

I’ve already shown you that even God has a soul (Lev 26:1 - Jer 32:41) and that God does not have a physical body (1 Tim 1:17 – Col 1:16)

“You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God Le 26:1.

You will need to show me how this verse has God having a soul?

I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul. Je 32:41.

When you see Heart and Soul together it usually speaks to the Mind i.e. thinking, thought, reason

Soul can be translated as Soul, Life, mind, person, heart, creature, body, himself, yourselves, dead, will, desire, man, themselves, any, apatite etc.

God does not have a physical heart or a physical mind as we do, but both of these cannot be separated from him, or us, so I'm still unclear on what you are trying to prove. Our bodies and minds go to the grave and both are raised.

Clear Bible teaching

Would you like to try proving that God the Father is a physical creature?

I don't need to because as I have shown the use of the word Heart & Mind is correct in that context. We have been over all this many times. Soul is a diverse word which usually speaks to the whole of the person.

Are you struggling with the idea God can use that word of himself?

It seems you’re trying to prove that the soul must be born into a physical body.

The body born is the soul!

Maybe your understanding of the word is limited?

Again, God the Father has a soul and he was not born into a physical body, nor created.

Now your comprehension is in question.

I've shown you already how the word Soul is used - it speaks to the whole of a person.

Are you truing to cram this word into a bias?

My soul delights in the Lord - here it means my life, being, everything that is me.
God's soul delights in me - here it means the same; His being, all of Him delights in me

If you think I limited the use of the Word to only meaning a physical being then I've misled you.

As I've tried to show you the word Soul is used in many different and varying ways which I'm yet to hear you acknowledge.

Yes, some souls are born of women, but ask yourself, when does that soul come into existence?

No, all souls are born - it represents the life of a person!

Did Jesus Christs’ soul exist prior to being born of a woman?

No, he is the first begotten as he said himself...

18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades Re 1:18.

Jesus had a beginning and an end

God his Father does not.

Making the point that God lives for evermore is pointless and carries not meaning at all - God has no beginning or end at all

So yes, Jesus was a born soul.

When does God breath that “breath of life” into us so that we become a living soul?

The physical body requires a breathing to function.

I thought that was rather obvious!

Why you keep on about immortal souls is beyond me.

Because you are yet to explain adequately what you are trying to prove. I've shown you that a person in the Bible is a complete person, mind and body - a soul, is born, eats and drinks, dies and is raised from the dead.

I've shown you how soul is used as a person being born....I'll move on to the next and hopefully in time you will understand its diversity.

You don't need to prove to me that the soul is mortal

If you believe the Soul is mortal how can you use the same of God? Clearly you are telling me you understand Soul to mean, being, person, mind etc.

Either you're copying and pasting from a study, not reading my posts or your comprehension skills are weak.

I'm starting think the same of you.

So, I will reiterate the main point.

At the resurrection the Flesh Body, Soul, Mind, Person, Being, Heart and Mind of a person is raised, judged and it worthy will be changed into an immortal being.

This is Bible truth

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Beebster

Souls saved

Eight souls saved by water 1 Peter 3:20

Context is the flood where 8 lives (souls) were saved.

You have delivered my soul from death. Psa. 56:13; 116:8; 33:19

Context is to save his life from death

Both of these quotes reference the whole of the person - body and mind

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Beebster

Soul Eats

No soul (person) of you shall eat blood Lev 17:10,12

I will say unto my soul (life), Soul (life) … take thine ease, eat, drink—this night thy soul (life) shall be required of thee. Luke 12:19, 20.

Another obvious one B.

F2F

 

[Beebster]

Souls saved

Eight souls saved by water 1 Peter 3:20

Context is the flood where 8 lives (souls) were saved.

Peter is not telling us that souls are physical.

Verse 18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Not put to death in the flesh, then raised in the flesh, then quickened by the spirit.

Verse 19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Most think he was in hell preaching to spirits in hell which is nonsense.

As I said earlier Christ had a soul well before he was born unto a woman.

Christ was the first being The Father ever created and Christ is still being created.

Christ was quickened by the very same spirit that preached to those spirits in prison in Noah’s day.

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (1 Pet 1:11)

Verse 20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein FEW, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Yes, eight souls were saved from drowning.

That is a shadow of better thing to come:

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but FEW chosen. (Mat 20:16)

Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body (the spiritual body) is of Christ. (Col 2:17)

Very FEW will be saved in the first resurrection.

Verse 21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The flood shadows baptism, not of water but by fire.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Mat 3:11)

If your soul is your physical body, why aren't we burning right now?

Verse 22
Who is gone into heaven (where is heaven?), and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (Jn 14:17)

You have delivered my soul from death. Psa. 56:13; 116:8; 33:19

Context is to save his life from death

That is the literal massage.

Both of these quotes reference the whole of the person - body and mind

Not when you understand the spiritual message, which I do not have time to explain right now so I will ask you:

Psa56:13
For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

116:8
For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling.

What is the spiritual meaning?

Psa 33:19

To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.

Again, what is the spiritual meaning?

I’ll explain what I think it is tomorrow if I have time plus there are a few other things I’d like to go over from your previous posts.

 

[face2face]

Peter is not telling us that souls are physical.

Peter is telling you 8 physical lives were saved !

I still have no idea what is in the wheelbarrow you are pushing?

Verse 18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Not put to death in the flesh, then raised in the flesh, then quickened by the spirit.

Correct, this takes place post resurrection

Verse 19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Most think he was in hell preaching to spirits in hell which is nonsense.

As I said earlier Christ had a soul well before he was born unto a woman.

Christ was the first being The Father ever created and Christ is still being created.

Christ was quickened by the very same spirit that preached to those spirits in prison in Noah’s day.

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (1 Pet 1:11)

It's very clear you don't understand that tricky little section of Scripture. I get what you want it to mean but this is not the passage for that.

If you want to start a separate thread on that section happy to show you!

Verse 20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein FEW, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

8 physical lives with spiritual minds were saved - correct!

Yes, eight souls were saved from drowning.

That is a shadow of better thing to come:

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but FEW chosen. (Mat 20:16)

Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body (the spiritual body) is of Christ. (Col 2:17)

Yep, the change from mortal to immortal to happen post resurrection

Very FEW will be saved in the first resurrection.

Verse 21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The flood shadows baptism, not of water but by fire.

Have no idea what you are on about here!

This is very simple B.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Mat 3:11)

If your soul is your physical body, why aren't we burning right now?

You need to explain yourself a lot more than this.

Matt 3:11 is referring to the Holy spirit coming with “tongues of fire” in Acts 2:3-4. The Apostles were set ablaze with fiery zeal cp Psa 39:1-3, Jer 20:8-9

This HS indwelling only happened for a time and once the Gospel was well established in the earth those gifts ceased.

You are not making any sense whatsoever in this reply - you are all over the place.

What precisely are you trying to prove?

Verse 22
Who is gone into heaven (where is heaven?), and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

No one goes to Heaven - the earth is the destination of the Saints!

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (Jn 14:17)

That is the literal massage.

It's speaking of an enlightened mind!

Not when you understand the spiritual message, which I do not have time to explain right now so I will ask you:

Psa56:13
For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

116:8
For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling.

What is the spiritual meaning?

116:8 Yes, Lord, you rescued my life from death, and kept my feet from stumbling. 116:9 I will serve the Lord in the land of the living.
Ps 116:8–9.

God has saved the Psalmist from a life threatening situation and promises to serve God in the land of the living!

Still, I have no idea what you are trying to prove!

Psa 33:19

To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.

Again, what is the spiritual meaning?

I’ll explain what I think it is tomorrow if I have time plus there are a few other things I’d like to go over from your previous posts.

Nothing has changed.

Mortal man is raised from the dead with all their memories, experiences and faith and if found worthy Christ will "put on" and "clothe" that person with immortality

This still stands as Bible Truth

F2F

 

[Beebster]

When does God breath that “breath of life” into us so that we become a living soul?

The physical body requires a breathing to function.
I thought that was rather obvious!

I see it's “a breathing” now since I brought it to your attention that goldfish breath differently than you and your dog.

Yes, some souls are born of women, but ask yourself, when does that soul come into existence?

No, all souls are born - it represents the life of a person!

No they are not; many children are never born.

God’s life giving spirit is given upon conception.

And though that child may never take the same breath you have, that child is still alive and has a soul. And if that soul is never born unto a women and never takes the same breath “your dog takes” it has no last breath for God to take back as you claim here:

Correct, the body returns to the grave and the last breath is Gods also!

God takes back that spirit of life not the last breath of air you exhale. Good grief.

Then shall the dust return to the earth AS IT WAS: and the spirit shall return unto God WHO GAVE IT. (Ecc 12:7)