Premils won't understand the amil view until they understand this.

[Spiritual Israelite]

How do these verses prove Satan has power over the saints of Christ? Isn't it God that has power of life and death? Death of our physical body cannot harm the soul that ascends to heaven the spiritual body of Christ there when our body breathes its last. That doesn't sound to me like Satan having power over the saints of Christ.

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Exactly. Satan doesn't win by physically killing Christians since they then go to heaven afterwards. He cannot kill our soul, as Jesus Himself pointed out.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Matthew 16 we see authority (or keys) being delegated to the Church, “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind (or chain or shackle) on earth shall be bound (or chained or shackled) in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (vv 17-19).

The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of this victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is torn down.

1 John 5:18: “he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him.

Jesus said in Luke 10:19, “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

Please note there are 2 powers at work here. There is “the power of the enemy” and then there is the “power” that Jesus gives His disciples. And guess whose power is abundantly more powerful? Jesus power!

When you are tuned into heaven, when you are connected to heaven, God is big and the devil is small. The light is shining and the darkness is dispelled. Peace prevails and power ensues.

Think about it: tell me a greater power source than being plugged into God?

1 John 4:4 is not a cliché it is a fact. Speaking about the Spirit of antichrist and the demonic realm: “Ye are of God … and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you (which is Jesus), than he that is in the world (Satan).”

What is going on in the New Testament? With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Look at what 1 John 2:14 says, “ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.”

Can you see the massive change that has occurred since Christ’s coming compared to the Old Testament? It is seismic. The weakest believer in here this morning has power over the enemy because he has been defeated.

But what is the source of our strength? “The word of God abideth in you.”

Why are many so weak today? The Word of God does not truly abide within them. It is all intellectual knowledge.

Ephesians 6:11 says “Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles (or methods or schemes) of the devil.”

This tells us to employ the sword of the spirit – which is the word of God, to overcome the powers of darkness.

1 Peter 5:8-9: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

You do not need to fear Satan anymore, you do not need to listen to him anymore, you just have to resist him and he must go.

This is an incredible verse. When you resist, the enemy must vanish. Do you believe that? Are you living there?

We find the disciples assignment in Luke 9:1-2: “Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God.”

When we think about Christ’s ministry and the great commission resting upon the Church, we normally focus in on preaching the Gospel. Most Christians agree on that one. But many miss that our assignment on this earth involved 3 important elements (1) preaching the Gospel, (2) healing the sick and (3) casting out devils.

There was a day when this world was in utter darkness. Satan was king of the nations. Today, everywhere he pops his head up, he is resisted.

What is more, Jesus has given us “power and authority over all devils.” Nowhere does it say Satan has power over us in the New Testament.

Amen! I think one reason premils have trouble understanding this is because of what they see in the world today without thinking about how it was in OT times compared to how things have been through most of the NT times until more recently. They need to think about the tremendous change in the world that occurred after Christ came. Paul described the Gentiles as having "no hope" and being "without God in the world" before Christ came (Ephesians 2:11-13), but that all changed after His death and resurrection.

The light of the gospel began to spread in Israel and then to places where the word of God had never been preached before which brought hope to those who previously never had hope because of being in bondage to the fear of death (Hebrews 2:14-15). People had no hope of eternal life before that, but the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ brought that hope to the world. Jesus had to take the power of death away from Satan (Heb 2:14-15) and He had to bind the strong man in order to spoil his house (the world) and his goods (people in spiritual darkness who feared death and had no hope).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

On the contrary, the abyss is undoubtedly a geographical place known as the ocean, but John uses symbolic language to describe what will happen to Satan. In reality Satan will be unable to interact with anyone during the millennial period.

You think that Satan will be bound in the ocean? How can that be possible?

I don't know if demons are spirits but whatever he is, Satan will be imprisoned such that he is unable to interact with anyone. Since Satan roams around like a lion, then he is not bound.

Your thinking is always carnal and never spiritual. You don't know if demons are spirits? How can they possess people if they are not spirits?

Premils always highlight Satan roaming around like a lion, but never talk about how he can't do anything against believers.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

What happens if believers resist him?

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

This kind of authority over Satan and our spiritual enemies was unprecedented in OT times. He has to flee from us now because of the presence of the Holy Spirit within us. Because of this, the gospel message has been able to be preached throughout the world to shine light on the world and give people the hope of eternal life. This happened after the Gentiles previously had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-13). The strong man (Satan) had to be bound in order for his house and his goods to be spoiled (Matthew 12:28-29).

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

 

[WPM]

The prophets see it, the apostles see it, the Lord sees it…they all talk and write about it…the scripture clearly reveals it…the apostasy is the falling away from the “Person of Truth Himself” due to the formulated power of Satan’s lies. These people that constitute the “falling away” are the “children of God” WPM…our brothers and sisters.

In light of this very present reality…consider Paul from Hebrews 6…“in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away”…This is clearly speaking of those in the “church having received the Holy Spirit”…and their “falling away” which we know is and will continue to happen.

Further…“it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” That WPM is the full impact of the formulated power of the dragons lies in taking authority over the minds of the children of God who are the “church.”

The dragon’s “world” convinces the children of God to believe a lie so deceptive that they reject the salvation they once received from the Lord Yahshua Christ…thereby making the work of the cross of no effect in their lives…rejecting His atonement for their sin…thus causing them to put Him to open shame…they deny Him openly before man.

Redd...:)

These are NOT “the children of God” (our brothers and sisters). These are those that are part of the visible church, they profess Christ, but they are not truly born again. They're not a new creature in Christ. Remember, many will say on that day "Lord, Lord." God's people possess eternal life, and they shall never perish.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. You are so naive. No, most premils would say that the age to come is not referring to the eternal new heavens and new earth, but rather to the supposed future thousand years on earth after Christ's second coming. Christ will return at the end of this age (Matt 24:3) at which point the age to come will commence. So, I don't know why any premil would say that the age to come is referring to the eternal new heavens and new earth unless they don't acknowledge that Jesus will return at the end of this age.

The millennial period takes place in this age, not the age to come.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The millennial period takes place in this age, not the age to come.

Yes, that is what you believe and that is what all amils believe, but I'm saying that most premils do not believe that. You thought everyone agreed with you about this, but that is not the case. Most premils see the age to come as referring to the millennial period.

 

[WPM]

Since Satan is still active in the world, he is not bound and he has not been thrown into the abyss.

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Do you believe Satan literally has 7 heads and 7 necks?
5. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
6. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
7. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
8. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
9. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
10. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
11. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
12. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
13. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
14. Can a prisoner deceive others in prison?
15. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

 

[CadyandZoe]

What does the text indicate? You don't have to speculate about this.

Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Look at the description of Him smiting the nations and treading "the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty". It refers to the destruction "of all people, free and slave, great and small".

Not at all. The passage refers to ruling the nations with a rod of iron. He can't rule over people that don't exist.

To think that any unbelievers will survive this makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. 1 Corinthians 15 says that Jesus will abolish all rule, authority, and power. Thus, after he has done that, there will undoubtedly be survivors.

Other scriptures also teach that He will destroy all of His enemies when He returns with 2 Peter 3:10-12 being the most obvious.

The Peter passage talks about the Day of the Lord, which happens in the land of Israel. Peter isn't talking about a world-wide destruction.

But, Jesus Himself implied that by saying that just as all unbelievers were destroyed in the flood and in Sodom, "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed" (Luke 17:30).

Even here the scope of destruction is limited.

On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife.​

If Jesus were discussing destruction, then it wouldn't matter where someone is located. But it does matter because those who do not go down and attempt to save their goods are survivors. Since there will be survivors, then Jesus is not talking about total destruction.

In the following passage Paul indicates that Christ will destroy "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ".

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Paul gave no indication that any "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"" will survive. In 1 Thess 5:2-3 he said "sudden destruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not escape".

Peter and Paul refer to the same event, revealed by Malachi the prophet in chapter 4. The fires from heaven are coming against Israel and the evil-arrogant ones. This is not talking about a world-wide destruction.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, that is what you believe and that is what all amils believe, but I'm saying that most premils do not believe that. You thought everyone agreed with you about this, but that is not the case. Most premils see the age to come as referring to the millennial period.

Isn't this a good reason to drop labels?

 

[CadyandZoe]

You think that Satan will be bound in the ocean? How can that be possible?

No. Why would you think that? I assume you are familiar with symbolic language. Why does it use the term abyss -- Ocean? Imagine you are taking an ocean cruise and accidentally dropping your car keys into the water. Do you have any chance of retrieving your keys? Not a chance. They are gone into the deep blackness and forever lost.

In other words, John depicts Satan being thrown into the abyss in order to illustrate the idea that he is unable to make contact with human beings and they are unable to make contact with him.

Your thinking is always carnal and never spiritual.

I think you are confusing "imaginary" with "spiritual."

You don't know if demons are spirits? How can they possess people if they are not spirits?

They are invisible, but this doesn't mean they are spirits.

Premils always highlight Satan roaming around like a lion, but never talk about how he can't do anything against believers.

Why does that matter. If he can do things to unbelievers then he isn't bound.

What happens if believers resist him?

Believers are able to resist him by the power of the Holy Spirit, not because he is bound. If believers are resisting him, then he isn't bound.

He has to flee from us now because of the presence of the Holy Spirit within us.

My point exactly. And if he flees, he isn't bound.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

In this context, the strong man isn't the devil himself, the strong man is the demon possessing the person.

 

[CadyandZoe]

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?

Doesn't matter.

1. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
2. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
3. Do you believe Satan literally has 7 heads and 7 necks?
4. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
5. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
6. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
7. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
8. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
9. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
10. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
11. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
12. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
13. Can a prisoner deceive others in prison?
14. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

Once again your questions concerning the essence of the Devil is not relevant. Whatever he is, he is put in a place where he can not have contact with other beings. And since he roams around, he is not bound.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not at all. The passage refers to ruling the nations with a rod of iron. He can't rule over people that don't exist.

He will destroy them. A rod of iron is used for destruction. How can He rule over those He has just destroyed? Please read Psalm 2:7-9. How can He rule over people that He has just "broken" in such a way that it is compared to a potter's vessel being dashed into pieces?

Read Revelation 19:15-18 and tell me how anyone can survive Him smiting the nations ("ethnos" - heathen) and treading the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God?

Here is another passage that refers Him treading the winepress of the wrath of God:

Revelation 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

After reading that, do you actually see anyone surviving Him treading the winepress of the wrath of God?

Revelation 19:17-18 refers to the destruction of "all people, free and slave, great and small". Who is excluded from that description besides believers, obviously? How can any mortals survive His coming when it refers to Him destroying "all people, free and slave, great and small"?

You are thinking carnally here as if Jesus is just like any other shephered and that His rod of iron is just like any shepherd's rod of iron, but that is not the case. Jesus isn't going to allow any of His enemies to survive His second coming. Why would He? What would be the reason for any of them to be allowed to survive?

Where do you see a description of any of them surviving here:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Jesus said "he who is not with me is against me". Those who are against Him are those "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Paul taught that He will take vengeance on them when He returns.

It makes perfect sense. 1 Corinthians 15 says that Jesus will abolish all rule, authority, and power. Thus, after he has done that, there will undoubtedly be survivors.

LOL. Not mortal survivors. How are you coming to that conclusion? The only survivors will be those with immortal bodies.

The Peter passage talks about the Day of the Lord, which happens in the land of Israel. Peter isn't talking about a world-wide destruction.

Good grief. You are wrong about everything.

Why did Peter compare that event directly with the flood in Noah's day in 2 Peter 3:6-7 if it's not a world-wide destruction?

Even here the scope of destruction is limited.

On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife.​

If Jesus were discussing destruction, then it wouldn't matter where someone is located. But it does matter because those who do not go down and attempt to save their goods are survivors. Since there will be survivors, then Jesus is not talking about total destruction.

You can't use that verse to support your view. The point there is that if you love your life in this world and are too attached to the things of this world, then you, like Lot's wife, will be destroyed when Jesus comes. Believers will all be changed to have immortal bodies at that point (1 Cor 15:50-54).

Peter and Paul refer to the same event, revealed by Malachi the prophet in chapter 4. The fires from heaven are coming against Israel and the evil-arrogant ones. This is not talking about a world-wide destruction.

Nonsense. God already dealt with Israel long ago when Jerusalem and its temple buildings were destroyed in 70 AD. Christ's second coming is a global event at which time all His people will be gathered to Him and all of His enemies will be destroyed.

 

[WPM]

Doesn't matter.

Once again your questions concerning the essence of the Devil is not relevant. Whatever he is, he is put in a place where he can not have contact with other beings. And since he roams around, he is not bound.

For you to answer these honestly would totally dismantle your whole argument. That is why you constantly avoid! Your avoidance reinforces the Amillennial position.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. Why would you think that?

Because you said "On the contrary, the abyss is undoubtedly a geographical place known as the ocean, but John uses symbolic language to describe what will happen to Satan. In reality Satan will be unable to interact with anyone during the millennial period.". What did you mean then? You acted as if the abyss is the ocean and, therefore, Satan being cast there would result in him unable to interact with anyone.

I assume you are familiar with symbolic language. Why does it use the term abyss -- Ocean?

The KJV calls it "the bottomless pit", so I don't know that it's supposed to equate with the ocean. Regardless, it's a symbolic reference and shouldn't be taken literally. The symbolism is of the dragon being bound with a chain in the abyss or bottomless pit. But, what does that symbolize? It can't symbolize a spirit being chained up since a spirit being cannot be literally chained up. So, it has to symbolize something besides that. I assume you know by now how Amils interpret it so that I don't have to explain it to you?

Imagine you are taking an ocean cruise and accidentally dropping your car keys into the water. Do you have any chance of retrieving your keys? Not a chance. They are gone into the deep blackness and forever lost.

Yes, but, again, this is not symbolizing a spirit being literally chained up somewhere. The dragon being chained up in the abyss symbolizes something and should not be taken literally at all as if it's talking about Satan being completely incapacitated. He is not bound from doing anything at all, he is bound from deceiving people. But, what does that mean? He is bound from doing any deceiving at all or something else?

Jesus talked about the need for the strong man to be bound in order to spoil his house and his goods. Was He saying that strong man had to be incapacitated in order for that to occur?

Matthew 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

The immediate context here was in relation to Jesus casting out demons from people and setting them free. The strong man represents Satan. Did Jesus need to completely incapacitate Satan in order to bind him and "plunder his house" and "carry off his possessions"? You're not understanding that the binding of Satan had to do with how people who were formerly in Satan's grasp were set free. People who formerly had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Eph 2:11-13) were given the hope of eternal life through Jesus Christ's death and resurrection.

By His death Jesus took the power of death away from Satan that he was formerly able to use to keep the world in slavery to the fear of death because of not having the hope of eternal life.

Hebrews 2: Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

In other words, John depicts Satan being thrown into the abyss in order to illustrate the idea that he is unable to make contact with human beings and they are unable to make contact with him.

No. You are not understanding that the binding of Satan and its effects are written about in NT scripture. You are not using scripture to interpret scripture here. You think that an entirely new doctrine is being introduced in Revelation 20, but it's not.

They are invisible, but this doesn't mean they are spirits.

What would you call them then? They can possess people. How can non-spirits do that?

 

[CadyandZoe]

For you to answer these honestly would totally dismantle your whole argument. That is why you constantly avoid! Your avoidance reinforces the Amillennial position.

Do you want to present your argument? Why does it matter? John is speaking symbolically about his imprisonment. The only thing that matters is what the symbols mean. And what could it mean for the devil to be thrown into the abyss if it doesn't mean that he is unable to interact with human beings?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Because you said "On the contrary, the abyss is undoubtedly a geographical place known as the ocean, but John uses symbolic language to describe what will happen to Satan. In reality Satan will be unable to interact with anyone during the millennial period.". What did you mean then? You acted as if the abyss is the ocean and, therefore, Satan being cast there would result in him unable to interact with anyone.

The term Abyss comes from the Greek word ἄβυσσοs, which literally means "bottomless" John is saying that the Devil will be thrown into a bottomless pit. The essential aspect of his symbolic wording is the two-fold idea that he can't get out and we can't get in. In other words, during that time Satan will not be able to interact with anyone at all.

The KJV calls it "the bottomless pit", so I don't know that it's supposed to equate with the ocean. Regardless, it's a symbolic reference and shouldn't be taken literally.

I agree. John isn't being literal here. But his symbol represents a target idea that has meaning in the real world. The symbol of a bottomless pit represents a place where Satan is without influence.

It can't symbolize a spirit being chained up since a spirit being cannot be literally chained up.

It symbolizes Satan being removed from access to anyone other than himself.

He is not bound from doing anything at all, he is bound from deceiving people.

The symbol of a bottomless pit represents his inability to make contact with anyone.

No. You are not understanding that the binding of Satan and its effects are written about in NT scripture. You are not using scripture to interpret scripture here. You think that an entirely new doctrine is being introduced in Revelation 20, but it's not.

The evidence is against your view. Peter says that Satan roams around like a lion. Someone stuck in a bottomless pit is unable to roam around.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you want to present your argument? Why does it matter? John is speaking symbolically about his imprisonment. The only thing that matters is what the symbols mean. And what could it mean for the devil to be thrown into the abyss if it doesn't mean that he is unable to interact with human beings?

You act as if you recognize that the description of his imprisonment is symbolic, but then you proceed to take it literally as if it's talking about Satan being thrown into a literal place called the abyss. It doesn't make sense.

Do you understand that symbols don't have to resemble what they are symbolizing? For example, what the woman sitting on many waters (Revelation 17:1) symbolically represents does not resemble a literal woman literally sitting on literal waters at all, right? So, why do you take a symbolic description of a dragon being chained up in the abyss, which symbolizes the binding of Satan, in such a literal way as if it indicates that it results in him being completely incapacitated?

 

[CadyandZoe]

He will destroy them.

He can't rule over them if they are destroyed.

A rod of iron is used for destruction.

Of course. But what is being destroyed, people? No. The pot destroys governments, and religious institutions.

Read Revelation 19:15-18 and tell me how anyone can survive Him smiting the nations ("ethnos" - heathen) and treading the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God?

Jesus is fighting armies. Not everyone joins the army.

Here is another passage that refers Him treading the winepress of the wrath of God:

This speaks of the blood of soldiers. Not everyone is a soldier.

You are thinking carnally here

You don't know what carnal thinking is.

Jesus isn't going to allow any of His enemies to survive His second coming. Why would He?

Because he will rule over them.

LOL. Not mortal survivors. How are you coming to that conclusion? The only survivors will be those with immortal bodies.

Yes, mortal survivors. First of all, the 144K are mortal and they are survivors. Second, Jesus rules over those who survive his battle with the armies of the nations.

Good grief. You are wrong about everything.

Why did Peter compare that event directly with the flood in Noah's day in 2 Peter 3:6-7 if it's not a world-wide destruction?

Peter isn't comparing the flood with the Day of the Lord point for point. He mentions the flood in order to disprove the mocker's contention that everything is as it was from the beginning.

You can't use that verse to support your view. The point there is that if you love your life in this world and are too attached to the things of this world, then you, like Lot's wife, will be destroyed when Jesus comes.

I can use that verse because my point is simple. If Jesus defines a way to survive, this implies survivors.

Nonsense. God already dealt with Israel long ago when Jerusalem and its temple buildings were destroyed in 70 AD. Christ's second coming is a global event at which time all His people will be gathered to Him and all of His enemies will be destroyed.

He will deal with them again. Did you read Malachi yet?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The term Abyss comes from the Greek word ἄβυσσοs, which literally means "bottomless" John is saying that the Devil will be thrown into a bottomless pit. The essential aspect of his symbolic wording is the two-fold idea that he can't get out and we can't get in. In other words, during that time Satan will not be able to interact with anyone at all.

You want it to be both symbolic and literal. It makes no sense. The whole description of Satan's binding is symbolic and we need to then discern what it symbolically represents. Satan himself cannot be bound with a chain. That's ridiculous. It says the dragon, which symbolically represents Satan, is bound with a chain in the abyss. That whole description is symbolic, but you want to take it literally.

I agree. John isn't being literal here. But his symbol represents a target idea that has meaning in the real world. The symbol of a bottomless pit represents a place where Satan is without influence.

It symbolizes Satan being removed from access to anyone other than himself.

How are you coming to that conclusion? What is being symbolized represents Satan being unable to deceive people. But, we need to discern whether that is talking about his ability to deceive generally or, as amils, believe, his ability to keep the world in spiritual darkness while having "no hope" and being "without Christ" and "without God in the world" (Eph 2:11-12) and his ability to keep people in slavery to the fear of death, as he was able to do in OT times, but no longer in NT times (Heb 2:14-15).

The symbol of a bottomless pit represents his inability to make contact with anyone.

LOL. You keep saying that, but I don't know how you are coming to that conclusion. It doesn't say he is bound from making contact with anyone, it says he is bound from deceiving the "ethnos" (people) of the world which number "as the sand of the sea".

The evidence is against your view. Peter says that Satan roams around like a lion. Someone stuck in a bottomless pit is unable to roam around.

Your evidence is very flimsy and based only on an assumption that a symbolic representation of a dragon being chained up in a bottomless pit symbolizes Satan being unable to do anything. That's not what his binding means, though. Do you think that in order to bind the strong man, Jesus had to completely incapacitate Satan?

Matthew 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

I think you said that you see the strong man as representing the demon who was possessing people and that that Jesus cast out. Even in that case, did Jesus have to completely incapacitate the demon in order to "plunder his house" and "carry off his possessions"? No. So, your understanding of what it means to bind Satan is flawed. He doesn't have to be completely incapacitated in order to be bound.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He can't rule over them if they are destroyed.

Of course. But what is being destroyed, people? No. The pot destroys governments, and religious institutions.

Jesus is fighting armies. Not everyone joins the army.

This speaks of the blood of soldiers. Not everyone is a soldier.

You don't know what carnal thinking is.


Because he will rule over them.

Yes, mortal survivors. First of all, the 144K are mortal and they are survivors. Second, Jesus rules over those who survive his battle with the armies of the nations.

Peter isn't comparing the flood with the Day of the Lord point for point. He mentions the flood in order to disprove the mocker's contention that everything is as it was from the beginning.

I can use that verse because my point is simple. If Jesus defines a way to survive, this implies survivors.

He will deal with them again. Did you read Malachi yet?

So, you just repeated yourself and didn't address my points directly at all. Discussion over.