Premils won't understand the amil view until they understand this.

[Reddsta]

Premillennialism is always elevating Satan. Premil is always exalting the power and influence of Satan. It portrays a small impotent Jesus, a powerless Church and a big devil.

There has never been…nor will there ever be…an impotent Jesus…He is God…we are seeing a powerless church today because they are falling away as prophesied.

Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, Premillennialism while they may hold something for those who ascribe to them respectively…I have found…that all of them have inherent short comings that really only amount to a disservice to the adherents…while often times creating needless division among the house of God…that’s just my experience…I don’t really fit neatly into any of them.

WPM…perhaps you are correct about “Premillennialism” always elevating or exalting the power and influence of Satan…though the scriptures reveal similar…in Luke 4 for example…the dragon showed Him [Yahshua] all the kingdoms of the world…and stated that he had all authority over them and takes the glory for them and that he can delegate this authority…which is what he was trying to do there…with the Lord.

In Daniel 7 Daniel said [emphasis mine]…“and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them” … “The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces.”

Revelation 13 tells us…“It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.”…“All who dwell on the earth will worship him.”

“Prevailing against the saints…devour the whole earth…trample it and break it in pieces…making war with the saints and overcoming them…he is given authority over every tribe, tongue, and nation…all who dwell on earth will worship him…the falling away of the church.”

How are these realities ever seen as anything less than the “great power and influence of the dragon over the whole earth no less?”

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

As the light is shone through the great commission, Satan is dethroned in the lives of humans and blindfolds are removed. Christ gave the Church power over Satan and his minions. They have authority to bind Satan and spoil his goods. We are the Lord's voice, hands and feet on this earth to enforce His will!

How do you explain an entire “world” in sin, death and decline? The evangelical church in the USA looks like they want to run the government and are not…the church is clearly in the throes of apostasy…harlot that she is. That’s what makes the church “look small” WPM…they are powerless and going after the wrong kingdom.

Where are you or your church the church enforcing His will at this time WPM?

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in your constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing.

Perhaps WPM…perhaps…why dont you tell me "what Christ is doing"…while staying in the context of your thesis?

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed.

The dragon is not sovereign…the Lord Yahshua Christ is the only sovereign without dispute. At the same time…in this “world” do you see any nation living under the sovereign rule of our Lord and Christ? Do you understand what that means?

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing.

That would not be right...yet his [dragon] ascension to authority over his “world” is amazing…equally amazing is the idea that he will one day have all that dwell upon the earth worshipping above God…while he is overcoming the saints.

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church

The scriptures do the same…the Lord Himself says in Matthew 24 “At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.” You don’t think he’s talking about the world there do you? In order to fall away…one must have been a part of that to which he has fallen away.

Once the apostasy is here as Paul wrote…which it is…that is the primary indicator that the man of lawlessness is being revealed.

Redd...:)

 

[WPM]

How do you explain an entire “world” in sin, death and decline? The evangelical church in the USA looks like they want to run the government and are not…the church is clearly in the throes of apostasy…harlot that she is. That’s what makes the church “look small” WPM…they are powerless and going after the wrong kingdom.

Where are you or your church the church enforcing His will at this time WPM?

Redd...:)

I agree! I believe we are in Satan's little season - the final apostasy.

 

[Reddsta]

whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so.

Ok…so where do you see this “subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so” at this time? Name one nation where Christ is worshipped and where righteousness, holiness, faith and love are the rule of the day…today?

Redd...:)

 

[WPM]

The scriptures do the same…the Lord Himself says in Matthew 24 “At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.” You don’t think he’s talking about the world there do you? In order to fall away…one must have been a part of that to which he has fallen away.

Once the apostasy is here as Paul wrote…which it is…that is the primary indicator that the man of lawlessness is being revealed.

Redd...:)

Agree!

 

[Reddsta]

In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

In Truth…Christ reigns over all creation as God and savior.

Redd...:)

 

[WPM]

Ok…so where do you see this “subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so” at this time? Name one nation where Christ is worshipped and where righteousness, holiness, faith and love are the rule of the day…today?

Redd...:)

In Matthew 16 we see authority (or keys) being delegated to the Church, “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind (or chain or shackle) on earth shall be bound (or chained or shackled) in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (vv 17-19).

The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of this victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is torn down.

1 John 5:18: “he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him.

Jesus said in Luke 10:19, “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

Please note there are 2 powers at work here. There is “the power of the enemy” and then there is the “power” that Jesus gives His disciples. And guess whose power is abundantly more powerful? Jesus power!

When you are tuned into heaven, when you are connected to heaven, God is big and the devil is small. The light is shining and the darkness is dispelled. Peace prevails and power ensues.

Think about it: tell me a greater power source than being plugged into God?

1 John 4:4 is not a cliché it is a fact. Speaking about the Spirit of antichrist and the demonic realm: “Ye are of God … and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you (which is Jesus), than he that is in the world (Satan).”

What is going on in the New Testament? With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Look at what 1 John 2:14 says, “ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.”

Can you see the massive change that has occurred since Christ’s coming compared to the Old Testament? It is seismic. The weakest believer in here this morning has power over the enemy because he has been defeated.

But what is the source of our strength? “The word of God abideth in you.”

Why are many so weak today? The Word of God does not truly abide within them. It is all intellectual knowledge.

Ephesians 6:11 says “Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles (or methods or schemes) of the devil.”

This tells us to employ the sword of the spirit – which is the word of God, to overcome the powers of darkness.

1 Peter 5:8-9: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

You do not need to fear Satan anymore, you do not need to listen to him anymore, you just have to resist him and he must go.

This is an incredible verse. When you resist, the enemy must vanish. Do you believe that? Are you living there?

We find the disciples assignment in Luke 9:1-2: “Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God.”

When we think about Christ’s ministry and the great commission resting upon the Church, we normally focus in on preaching the Gospel. Most Christians agree on that one. But many miss that our assignment on this earth involved 3 important elements (1) preaching the Gospel, (2) healing the sick and (3) casting out devils.

There was a day when this world was in utter darkness. Satan was king of the nations. Today, everywhere he pops his head up, he is resisted.

What is more, Jesus has given us “power and authority over all devils.” Nowhere does it say Satan has power over us in the New Testament.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Oh...yes! He has been bound since the Cross. The real problem is that you do NOT understand the purpose of his binding which is for the sake of God's Elect. For example, you said:

Yes, I mentioned Peter's remark that the Devil prowls around like a lion seeking whom to devour. And since the Devil prowls around like a roaring lion, he is not bound.

Satan was bound in the bottomless pit the same way God explains it.

Your statement contradicts what Peter said.

In other words, though Satan was destroyed [katargeo] that he is brought down to idleness or uselessness by the death of Christ so that the nations (or Gentiles) can be saved (instead of being deceived), he is clearly in another sense "not destroyed" for the world and still active in the world.

Exactly. He is still active in the world so he is Not bound.

This is why while God has His Elect secured (saved), they shall suffer tribulation in the world BECAUSE Satan STILL WORKS through unsaved people whom God does not plan to seal, but he cannot harm the Elect.

Exactly, Satan still works through the unsaved so he is NOT bound.

Shall we ask God how He says Satan is destroyed, and yet is still active in the world?

Paul didn't say that Satan is destroyed (past tense). He said that Satan MIGHT BE destroyed (subjunctive sense.) Paul addresses something that will happen in the future.

Yes, we should! And you did and the answer is found by comparing Scripture with Scripture, searching the Bible in the Spirit of obedience. Then we come to understand that Satan was bound and spiritually chained and made idle for the sake of the elect of the nations, but not for the world.

Revelation 20 describes Satan's incarceration this way. "[A]nd he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time." In this situation, Satan is placed where he is unable to have contact with anyone at all, whether the elect or those not elect. The distinction you raise might be true, but not in this situation because Satan will be unable to deceive anyone at all.

2nd Thessalonians 2:6-7

• "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
• For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Iniquity was RESTRAINED by the victory Christ accomplished in overcoming Satan at the cross, and yet the Apostle Paul under inspiration of God clearly says that Christ was even then letteth (restrained) it, and He would continue to restrain it until He be taken out of the way (midst).

Here, Paul discusses the work of the Holy Spirit, not the absence of Satan. When a dam restrains a river, the idea of restraint requires both the dam and the river. When it says that iniquity is restrained, it indicates the presence of both the Holy Spirit and the deceiver. He isn't bound, he is held back so that he is unable to complete his mission.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Church is everywhere. He can only hurt those who get close to him.

If Satan can hurt people, then he is not sequestered in a pit as it says in Revelation 20.

Yes 1 Peter 5:8 says, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” but you fail to complete the teaching of the passage or grasp the power the believer possesses. The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.” We have power over Satan since the cross!

We have been granted the means to see through his deception, but it doesn't follow that he is unable to deceive others. And since he is able to deceive others, he is not bound.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We are looking at the total wholesale destruction of the wicked. That is what awaits the ungodly when Jesus comes.

The message refers to ruling over the nations. One can hardly rule over them if they don't exist.

Christ is talking to the Church (the elect/the overcomers) and telling them that they will have "power" over "the nation" when He comes (speaking of Judgment Day). He then shows that this will correspond with the destruction of the nations: "as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers." How can the nations survive? They cannot!

We understand that when a nation is destroyed, it does not necessarily mean the destruction of all its people, since it’s impossible to rule over the deceased. The imagery of the rod of iron breaking pots symbolizes the defeat of the armies, governments, and religious institutions associated with the conquered people.

When Christ comes it is "the end"

Don't misunderstand 1Corinthians 15, where it says:

"But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death."​

Contrary to what one might think, Paul isn't saying that the end of history will take place immediately after the second coming. Rather, he describes what it will be like. The end of history involves the time and effort required to subjugate all authorities. At the end of history, he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, but only after he has abolished all rule, authority, and power. He will accomplish this by breaking them with his rod of iron. He will reign over the entire earth for a thousand years until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be abolished is death, which will be followed by the casting of death and hell into the Lake of Fire.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes. Christ's resurrection 2000 years ago and the approaching physical resurrection of all mankind.

On the contrary, John speaks of two physical resurrections in Revelation 20. However, in that context, he does not mention the resurrection of Christ.

 

[WPM]

If Satan can hurt people, then he is not sequestered in a pit as it says in Revelation 20.

We have been granted the means to see through his deception, but it doesn't follow that he is unable to deceive others. And since he is able to deceive others, he is not bound.

The abyss is not a geographical place but a spiritual condition of restraint. Please remember demons are spirits. Satan and his minions were injured at the cross, Satan’s head is now bruised. His movement is impaired. He is incapacitated.

Satan is a spiritual being. We are therefore looking in Revelation 20 at spiritual chains and a spiritual prison. The abyss is a spiritual condition. A physical chain and a physical prison will not cut it. The restraint upon him is spiritual. He is like a dog on a chain. A chain does not prevent movement, it limits movement.

Do prisoners have movement within a prison?
Can prisoners hurt?
Can prisoners steal?
Can prisoners kill?
Can prisoners deceive?
Can prisoners scheme?
Can prisoners commit disorder?

Of course they do.

The wicked are repeatedly depicted in Scripture as being in a prison and being in chains, does that suggest an inability to move?

Of course not!

 

[WPM]

The message refers to ruling over the nations. One can hardly rule over them if they don't exist.

I told you word "rule" means "shepherd." This is what happens at the end at the judgment.

We understand that when a nation is destroyed, it does not necessarily mean the destruction of all its people, since it’s impossible to rule over the deceased. The imagery of the rod of iron breaking pots symbolizes the defeat of the armies, governments, and religious institutions associated with the conquered people.

Everything is regenerated when Jesus comes. This is the end of the world.

Don't misunderstand 1Corinthians 15, where it says:

"But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death."​

Contrary to what one might think, Paul isn't saying that the end of history will take place immediately after the second coming. Rather, he describes what it will be like. The end of history involves the time and effort required to subjugate all authorities. At the end of history, he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, but only after he has abolished all rule, authority, and power. He will accomplish this by breaking them with his rod of iron. He will reign over the entire earth for a thousand years until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be abolished is death, which will be followed by the casting of death and hell into the Lake of Fire.

This is clear and climactic. I suspect you see that. The second coming ushers in the end. The both are tied together in Scripture.

Do you believe "the last (eschatos) days" are "the last (eschatos) days"?
Do you believe "the last (eschatos) day" is "the last (eschatos) day"?
Do you believe "the end" (telos) is "the end" (telos)?
Do you believe "the last (eschatos) enemy" is "the last (eschatos) enemy" (1 Cor 15:26) and will be destroyed at glorification (1 Cor 15:52-57)?
Do you believe "the last (eschatos) trump" is "the last (eschatos) trump" (1 Cor 15:52)?

 

[WPM]

On the contrary, John speaks of two physical resurrections in Revelation 20. However, in that context, he does not mention the resurrection of Christ.

Not so.

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6?

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?

 

[IndianaRob]

This is clear and climactic. I suspect you see that. The second coming ushers in the end. The both are tied together in Scripture.

Do you believe "the last (eschatos) days" are "the last (eschatos) days"?
Do you believe "the last (eschatos) day" is "the last (eschatos) day"?
Do you believe "the end" (telos) is "the end" (telos)?
Do you believe "the last (eschatos) enemy" is "the last (eschatos) enemy" (1 Cor 15:26) and will be destroyed at glorification (1 Cor 15:52-57)?
Do you believe "the last (eschatos) trump" is "the last (eschatos) trump" (1 Cor 15:52)?

The "last day" was the last day of Jesus Christ's ministry... the crucifixion. The day when Jesus completed his work and covered the sins of the world and said "It is finished".

 

[WPM]

The "last day" was the last day of Jesus Christ's ministry... the crucifixion. The day when Jesus completed his work and covered the sins of the world and said "It is finished".

Not so. Days have continued since then. So it cannot be the last day. There is the coming of the Lord on the last day. There is the general resurrection on the last day. That has not happened yet.