What affect is there on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

[Wick Stick]

Credit where credit is due.
- They gave us the creeds.
- They gave us the canon of scripture.

And a whole lot of other things on the other side of that coin. (that I won't mention here)

Even those aren't without problems.

Look at how some idolize Scripture - that doesn't happen without canon.

Creeds conceptually force some unity on the church, but in practice they seem to put some people outside of the church who don't need to be on the outside.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Credit where credit is due.
- They gave us the creeds.
- They gave us the canon of scripture.

And a whole lot of other things on the other side of that coin. (that I won't mention here)

Even those aren't without problems.

Oh course. What isn't?

Look at how some idolize Scripture - that doesn't happen without canon.

Right. Any good thing can be abused.

Creeds conceptually force some unity on the church, but in practice they seem to put some people outside of the church who don't need to be on the outside.

Creeds codify a most basic set of beliefs.
Should anyone be in the church that doesn't at least somewhat agree with the Creed?
Hard to really be a Christian without reasonable alignment. IMHO

[

 

[Wick Stick]

Creeds codify a most basic set of beliefs. Should anyone be in the church that doesn't at least somewhat agree with the Creed? Hard to really be a Christian without reasonable alignment. IMHO

The idea of creeds is reasonable to me. But when I look at the first creeds, they immediately require uniformity on positions that weren't well-established. i.e. the tr!nity is far-from-established, even today...

 

[St. SteVen]

The idea of creeds is reasonable to me. But when I look at the first creeds, they immediately require uniformity on positions that weren't well-established. i.e. the tr!nity is far-from-established, even today...

Indeed.
In the church I was raised in the Creed (the Apostle's Creed) was rarely ever recited. (I remember twice in 20 years)
The attendees and members of this Protestant evangelical non-denominational community church were very uncomfortable with:
- Jesus descending into hell.
- Swearing allegiance to the Holy Catholic Church.

I seem to remember people looking around nervously and recitation trailing off.
That was the end of that. - LOL

[

 

[Lambano]

The idea of creeds is reasonable to me. But when I look at the first creeds, they immediately require uniformity on positions that weren't well-established. i.e. the tr!nity is far-from-established, even today...

Having represented my company on several industry standards committees, I know how these things work. The dominant personalities get what they want, and then all sorts of stuff gets tacked on (including whatever the hot button of the day is) in order to gain the votes necessary to get it passed. I'm betting that's how we got the Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed, etc.

 

[Lambano]

Indeed.
In the church I was raised in the Creed (the Apostle's Creed) was rarely ever recited. (I remember twice in 20 years)
The attendees and members of this Protestant evangelical non-denominational community church were very uncomfortable with:
- Jesus descending into hell.
- Swearing allegiance to the Holy Catholic Church.

I seem to remember people looking around nervously and recitation trailing off.
That was the end of that. - LOL

[

I note that the Apostles' Creed in the back of the Methodist Hymnal has a big "Nathan Hale"* on the "Holy Catholic Church" part with a disclaimer that says, "No, no, no! The Apostles REALLY meant the 'Universal Church', not those guys with the funny hats in Rome!"

* Nathan Hale was an American separatist who advocated American independence from England. When hanged by the British for treason, his last words were, "My only regret is that I have but one asterisk for my country".

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a good catch. NASB20 may have caught the sense better than KJV here:

“And on that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.

The NASB 1995 which is the bible I use says:
"And on that day you will ask me no question.
Truly, truly I say to you, if you shall ask the Father for anything,
He will give it to you in My name."

That changes even what IN MY NAME means....
NOT to pray in Jesus' name...
but that the Father will give it IN HIS NAME.

The KJV leaves a lot to question and to require study.
Translations are much better today than when the KJV was written.

"Give us this day our daily bread" as a category includes asking for our physical needs. That includes not just food, but, say, a cure for cancer. Ask. Seek. Knock.

Unless you want to make the argument that "Daily Bread" is only a metaphor referring to spiritual nourishment and spiritual needs. Could be.

No, it's not a metaphor and I do agree with you.
Our daily bread means our physical needs - but does it include a cure for cancer? Not sure on that.
More regarding food necessary for life...
AND
spiritual food.
Just as the body requires food,
so does our spirit require food.

 

[St. SteVen]

I note that the Apostles' Creed in the back of the Methodist Hymnal has a big "Nathan Hale"* on the "Holy Catholic Church" part with a disclaimer that says, "No, no, no! The Apostles REALLY meant the 'Universal Church', not those guys with the funny hats in Rome!"

* Nathan Hale was an American separatist who advocated American independence from England. When hanged by the British for treason, his last words were, "My only regret is that I have but one asterisk for my country".

LOL
That is both funny and informative, thanks.
I really enjoy the "think tank" environment some posters (like you) bring to the forum.
Not in the sense of an echo chamber, but the expansion of knowledge.

Was there a "Nathan Hale" on the "descended into hell" aspect. Perhaps you don't recall.

I also think there is a general disconnect in the church concerning the term "the grave".
In reference to Sheol/hell/the realm of the dead. Where is "the heart of the earth"?
Jesus was laid in an above ground tomb, not "buried" in the dirt.

Matthew 12:40 NIV
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

St. SteVen said:
Credit where credit is due.
- They gave us the creeds.
- They gave us the canon of scripture.

And a whole lot of other things on the other side of that coin. (that I won't mention here)

Oh course. What isn't?


Right. Any good thing can be abused.


Creeds codify a most basic set of beliefs.
Should anyone be in the church that doesn't at least somewhat agree with the Creed?
Hard to really be a Christian without reasonable alignment. IMHO

[

Yes!
Should anyone be in the church that doesn't, at least somewhat, agree with the creeds???
My answer is no.

I had started a thread on this back when (not here) and it was basically felt that the creeds required no adherence.
My basic question was: What does it require for one to be defined as Christian?
Most answers: Be a follower of Jesus.

Doesn't really cut it, does it?

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL
That is both funny and informative, thanks.
I really enjoy the "think tank" environment some posters (like you) bring to the forum.
Not in the sense of an echo chamber, but the expansion of knowledge.

Was there a "Nathan Hale" on the "descended into hell" aspect. Perhaps you don't recall.

I also think there is a general disconnect in the church concerning the term "the grave".
In reference to Sheol/hell/the realm of the dead. Where is "the heart of the earth"?
Jesus was laid in an above ground tomb, not "buried" in the dirt.

Matthew 12:40 NIV
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

[

Hell was incorrectly translated in the NT.
All those terms you listed mean different places.

Jesus was 3 days in the heart of the earth....
Certainly not in hell - even the CC, that used to teach this, no longer does.
Because God cannot be in hell.

So what's the heart of the earth?
How about Paradise - not the Garden, but Paradise....Abraham's Bossom where those going to heaven were awaiting Jesus to liberate them from there....when the curtain was torn open.

Luke 16:22-23
22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Matthew 27:51 (Amplified)
“And [at once] the veil [of the Holy of Holies] of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; the earth shook and the rocks were split apart”.

 

[GodsGrace]

The idea of creeds is reasonable to me. But when I look at the first creeds, they immediately require uniformity on positions that weren't well-established. i.e. the tr!nity is far-from-established, even today...

You got likes from @Lambano and @St. SteVen which surprised me.

The Trinity is very well established today.

Also, of course the first creeds require uniformity on positions.
And, they were well-established once they became a creed.

Creeds were so because there was some question or other which answer had to be solidified and made uniform.

I don't want to change the topic...
but I think it's important that all Christians believe at least the basics UNIFORMLY.
Something we no longer have.

 

[St. SteVen]

Our daily bread means our physical needs

Good post, thanks.
I just had a thought as I read this, fore what it's worth.

Manna was daily bread.
And Jesus called himself the bread of life.
And "... Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God."

John 6:35 NIV
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry,
and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

Matthew 4:4 NIV
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone,
but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

John 6:32-35 NIV
Jesus said to them,
“Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven,
but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry,
and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

Good post, thanks.
I just had a thought as I read this, fore what it's worth.

Manna was daily bread.
And Jesus called himself the bread of life.
And "... Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God."

John 6:35 NIV
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry,
and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

Matthew 4:4 NIV
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone,
but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

John 6:32-35 NIV
Jesus said to them,
“Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven,
but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry,
and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

[

Sure...in these cases Jesus meant actual bread....
man needs bread....but not only bread but every word that comes from God.
Both physical and spiritual need.

Then there is temporary bread....manna lasted only one day and had to be replaced.
NOW God gives us the TRUE bread....the true spiritual bread that will last forever...Jesus.
Our spiritual nourishment - which is what we need BESIDES our physical nourishment.

Of course, John 6:35 is spiritual and begins the whole question as to what communion is...

 

[St. SteVen]

So what's the heart of the earth?

The Apostle Peter tells us that it is the place of "the imprisoned spirits",
"those who were disobedient long ago... in the days of Noah"
And the Apostle Paul quotes Psalm 68:18 from the Septuagint to say...
"When he ascended on high, he took many captives..." from "the lower, earthly regions"

1 Peter 3:19-20 NIV
After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah
while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10 NIV
This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Of course, John 6:35 is spiritual and begins the whole question as to what communion is...

Yes, some churches consider it (Eucharist) actual spiritual food. (transubstantiation)
Other churches take the elements as symbolic, in remembrance of.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

Hell was incorrectly translated in the NT.
All those terms you listed mean different places.

Jesus was 3 days in the heart of the earth....
Certainly not in hell - even the CC, that used to teach this, no longer does.
Because God cannot be in hell.

So what's the heart of the earth?
How about Paradise - not the Garden, but Paradise....Abraham's Bossom where those going to heaven were awaiting Jesus to liberate them from there....when the curtain was torn open.

Luke 16:22-23
22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Matthew 27:51 (Amplified)
“And [at once] the veil [of the Holy of Holies] of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; the earth shook and the rocks were split apart”.

Hell is a poor bit of translation, but I'm fairly sure the creed actually means Hades. The idea that Jesus went to Hades, attacked it and defeated death and set the captives there free is pretty well-established in the early church.

 

[Wick Stick]

The Trinity is very well established today.

We can't go very far down this road, because the forum prohibits discussions of the trinity. That in itself probably makes my point, but I will say... among those who believe in the trinity (the vast majority), there is very little agreement on what that actually means. For instance, the official position of the Orthodox church is "it's a mystery." That's basically "we don't know but we believe it anyway."

I don't want to change the topic...
but I think it's important that all Christians believe at least the basics UNIFORMLY.
Something we no longer have.

I prefer the early church's operation - differing opinions were allowed in virtually any area for a baptized believer. But converts were discipled and vetted for a period before baptism. Nowadays the church is so desperate to make a convert that we baptize and admit to membership literally anybody off the streets.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Apostle Peter tells us that it is the place of "the imprisoned spirits",
"those who were disobedient long ago... in the days of Noah"
And the Apostle Paul quotes Psalm 68:18 from the Septuagint to say...
"When he ascended on high, he took many captives..." from "the lower, earthly regions"

1 Peter 3:19-20 NIV
After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah
while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10 NIV
This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

[

I don't think I've ever read anyone on these forums that understands 1 Peter 3:19-20.
Never read commentaries - but I'll bet they don't agree.

(why not start a thread? )

 

[GodsGrace]

We can't go very far down this road, because the forum prohibits discussions of the trinity. That in itself probably makes my point, but I will say... among those who believe in the trinity (the vast majority), there is very little agreement on what that actually means. For instance, the official position of the Orthodox church is "it's a mystery." That's basically "we don't know but we believe it anyway."

I think we could discuss the Trinity but NOT have debates about it.
Of course, any discussion will begin a debate, so voila'.
And. let me add, I most assuredly 100% agree with this rule on this forum.
Because....if a person does not believe the Trinity, he cannot be defined as Christian...
So, nuff of that before we get scolded.
PS John 1:1 says it all.

I prefer the early church's operation - differing opinions were allowed in virtually any area for a baptized believer. But converts were discipled and vetted for a period before baptism. Nowadays the church is so desperate to make a convert that we baptize and admit to membership literally anybody off the streets.

Differing opinions were allowed?
Maybe some had differing opinions.
but the church saw to it that its position was well-known.
And as ECFs I only go up to 325AD.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, some churches consider it (Eucharist) actual spiritual food. (transubstantiation)
Other churches take the elements as symbolic, in remembrance of.

[

The CC does not consider the Eucharist actual spiritual food.
It considers the Eucharist actual food.

I have no opinion on this....wavering from one position to the other for the past __ years. ( a lot!).