Premils won't understand the amil view until they understand this.
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Aren't you confusing the external church as a physical representation of the Kingdom of God on earth, with the ETERNAL Church as, not the representation, but that is the Kingdom of God within you? A Kingdom that cannot be physically observed? Sin abounds in the church that is a mere representation, but there is NO sin within the eternal Church, the Kingdom of God in you, because Christ gave His blood to make atonement for all sin for all who believe in Him.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
On the contrary, the abyss is undoubtedly a geographical place known as the ocean, but John uses symbolic language to describe what will happen to Satan. In reality Satan will be unable to interact with anyone during the millennial period.
I don't know if demons are spirits but whatever he is, Satan will be imprisoned such that he is unable to interact with anyone. Since Satan roams around like a lion, then he is not bound.
Once again, you avoid my questions. You have to!
You constantly make claims that you're not able to prove in Scripture.
Not so. That is your opinion and it is wrong. The millennial period covers the last days.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
And I disagreed for obvious reasons. The rod of iron metaphor isn't doesn't represent a shepherd's crock. In Revelation 19:15, for instance, the rod of iron is associated with wrath, not gentile leadership.
I agree that Paul discusses the end, but he indicates that the end will come about according to the stages he describes: 1) He abolishes all rule, authority, and power. 2) He reigns until he puts all his enemies under his feet. 3) He hands over the kingdom to God the Father.
Have you been able to read the passage?
Nothing in Paul's description indicates a climactic end.
Not according to 1 Corinthians 15.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Hard to miss.
Where does Revelation 20 contain any of that information?
Perhaps you still need to see verse 5?
"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed."
I highlighted the key phrase for your examination. This implies that those who did not participate in the "first resurrection" remained dead until the thousand-year period was completed. The "first resurrection" refers to Jesus' followers who will reign with him during this thousand-year period.
Those who do not survive the second resurrection are thrown into the Lake of Fire. John refers to this as the "second death."
The same Shepherd who tenderly watches over the sheep of His pasture with a rod of care and correction is the same Shepherd who wields the rod of righteous anger against the goats at the end. The same rod that is used to protect and preserve the sheep during their existence is employed at the end to destroy and subdue. Every foe that has come against Christ’s flock will smote with a rod of destruction.
The reigning over the nations with a rod of iron described in Revelation 2, 12 and 19 would seem to be the final ruling or shepherding over the nations at the end of the world in order to mete out judgement. There is no mention of these rebels reigning for a 1,000 years, as Premil intimates. In fact, one thousand years are not mentioned in any of these readings. The only thing awaiting the wicked after Christ's Coming is judgment and eternal punishment.
Not so. Prove it! This is all Premil talking points. As usual: the sacred text negates your speculations.
1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24, asking, “how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain…But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”
The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The rod of iron is used to break pottery, not shepherd people or sheep.
Look again. Look for words such as "then," which indicate the order of events. For instance, Paul says that the dead in Christ are raised "at his coming," and THEN comes the end, WHEN . . . What follows is a description of the end.
Essentially, you ignore the text in blue.
I disagree. The tenure of the passage indicates the circumstances under which a follower of Christ is resurrected, and Christ subdues all of his enemies. The passage lacks any indication of time or duration, only that those in Christ are resurrected at his coming. The duration of the subjugation process is absent.
I agree except to disagree with your arrangement of the events. Since Jesus can't present the kingdom to God until he has abolished all rule, authority, and power, and such a thing must take a large amount of time by necessity, the end is NOT a climactic event.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
By the way, I do not engage with you to change your mind. I know that you are married to your beliefs. I ask these questions to expose the erroneous nature of your position. Your avoidance reinforces the Amil thesis. Others can see that you have no answer to the biblical facts.
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Revelation 20:
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
Titus 3
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
The verse above in Titus shows us the power of the gospel in us. Did you notice that Titus uses the same word as John did in revelation to describe the difference in us before and after the cross “deceived”?
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
Titus 3
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
The verse above in Titus shows us the power of the gospel in us. Did you notice that Titus uses the same word as John did in revelation to describe the difference in us before and after the cross “deceived”?
Reddsta
Member
Reddsta
Member
Clearly this statement in and of itself is correct…I however…no longer see the “church” as the “Body of Christ” or most of its constituency the “sons of God.” The “church” is the bunch that believes the lies of the Babylonian harlot and “falls away” from the Truth exactly as prophesied by the Lord.
In this…I can see that “individually” people are given “kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives” as you suggest WPM…however…just briefly allow me to submit to you an understanding you may already have…I am not sure at this point…if you do humor me will you?
In His explanation of the “signs of the end of the age”…a time I am certain we are in. Using that as a basis for my thought…our Lord Yahshua [Jesus] spoke this to His disciples privately while on the Mount of Olives. He was speaking of those who would in the end of the age bring deception to the “church” and mislead many “in His name.” Matthew 24:10-13 NASB emphasis mine
“At that time many will fall away [from faith in Him…MANY…look how the MANY will act] and will betray one another and hate one another.[this is the effectual power of the dragon via deception upon the church] "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.[MANY…they arise in the spirit and power of Satan] "Because lawlessness is increased, [lawlessness being the implementation of Satan’s authority] most people's love will grow cold. [lose their love for the Truth and fall away] "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.” [MANY…but not all] Mat 24:10-13 NASB
Again the question WPM…where do you see the “church advancing” as you suggest?
Redd...:)
Reddsta
Member
1st John 5 is directed to a faithful people in Christ…these are the ones separated from the “harlot church” WPM…they are not the “MANY.”
If the “us” you are referencing is the “many of the church” at large…then yes the dragon can and will stop and hurt them. That is exactly what the Lord Yahshua was warning us about according to Matthew. These were likely people who at one time were in love with our Lord who then are seduced by the beast his harlot and lawless one to believe a lie…that is power Bro…power to hurt and power to stop as the Lord spoke.
Redd...:)
Reddsta
Member
Of course WPM of course...and I agree…however your wording leads me to understand that you believe that this is for now…today? Again…I am simply asking where do you see this…“spiritual empowerment of the people of God”…“confronting and overcoming Satan and his demonic angels on planet earth?” As you repeatedly suggest…at this time?
I am not suggesting that it is not…only asking where you are witnessing the Kingdom of God actively overthrowing the kingdoms of the “world” on earth today?
Redd...:)
Reddsta
Member
Yes and yes completely transformative…from natural to supernatural from flesh to spirit.
Will be…defeated WPM…of this there is no doubt. Remember…before the beast, lawless one, the harlot and their entourage are destroyed…the dragon will have used them to gain full control over all the kingdoms of this world and all who dwell on this earth…they will all worship him…the fallen church folk and the worldly.
Redd...:)
Reddsta
Member
I agree in part brother…may I explain? If a human actually receives the Holy Spirit in their human spirit…salvation has come to them. Paul writes in Romans 8…“The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.” They were removed from the kingdom of darkness and brought into the Kingdom of God.
It is an exchange of fathers and the house they live and are raised in spiritually. They went from being “orphans and slaves” to “children of God the Father” of creation…who have received a “down payment” on what will one day be…a full inheritance from their Father…in this state…the “Word of God” does abide in them.
You are right about the “intellectual knowledge”…people seem to be infatuated with the knowledge they have obtained…yet…if it does not change the way they worship and live…it is nothing more than useless. I am of the opinion that this has a destructive impact upon the “children of God” that makes up the “church.”
Please remember that when you ask “Why are many so weak today?” I understand you to be referencing the “church” of today. The “institutional church today” has a constituency of believers and unbelievers…believers are those who have received the “power of eternal life” from the Lord Yahshua…the only One who has it to give…this is the “church” of today…in the minds of most.
Unbelievers that do not have His Holy Spirit…Him…in their spirit…are simply the world…their knowledge of Him and His Kingdom does not come from revelation by the Holy Spirit…Yahshua. Without His Spirit you are none of His…regardless of what you know, understand or believe.
Having established the Truth…that only those who are born of the water and Spirit can constitute the “church” as most see it…the weakness that you suggest…is then…in the ranks of those who are “saved…believers.”
This “many” that you WPM suggest…can correlate with the “many” that the Lord referenced as those who will…“fall away…betray and hate one another…be mislead…and who’s love will grow cold.”
I am contending here with you all…that this is caused by the dragon’s power of deception due largely to his authority over the kingdoms of this world. In this case…we see that the dragon is effectively waging war against the saints…and overcoming them…exactly as prophesied over the last three millennia by prophets and apostles...most of the do not realize this.
This is why I am not the guy that simply believes that because I have received the earnest of my inheritance…the power of eternal life in the Holy Spirit…that Satan the dragon, his beast, his lawless one and his harlot has no power over me or the “church!”
There is a war…a battle…and by definition the “end of the age apostasy” can be defined by the degree that it impacts God’s people. It is a “war or battle” that the “church” does not see…is not fighting…does not understand…and has rendered them powerless to contend with and will result in victory for the dragon and his war machine…as the actual “falling away”…apostasy.
The prophets see it, the apostles see it, the Lord sees it…they all talk and write about it…the scripture clearly reveals it…the apostasy is the falling away from the “Person of Truth Himself” due to the formulated power of Satan’s lies. These people that constitute the “falling away” are the “children of God” WPM…our brothers and sisters.
In light of this very present reality…consider Paul from Hebrews 6…“in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away”…This is clearly speaking of those in the “church having received the Holy Spirit”…and their “falling away” which we know is and will continue to happen.
Further…“it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” That WPM is the full impact of the formulated power of the dragons lies in taking authority over the minds of the children of God who are the “church.”
The dragon’s “world” convinces the children of God to believe a lie so deceptive that they reject the salvation they once received from the Lord Yahshua Christ…thereby making the work of the cross of no effect in their lives…rejecting His atonement for their sin…thus causing them to put Him to open shame…they deny Him openly before man.
Redd...:)
I totally understand where you are coming from.
There has always been the visible and invisible Church (gathering or assembly) since the beginning - the professors & possessors. The professors are all those who claim our God. The possessors are all those who God claims. The professors are a worldly people. The possessor are a heavenly people. The professors have religion in their head, the possessors have Jesus in the heart.
The visible church is those who profess. The invisible Church is the elect of God of all time. They are one spiritual people (building and body). The visible Church (ecclesia) is all who outwardly profess a hope in Yahweh God (Christ). The invisible Church (ecclesia) is all who inwardly possess a hope in Jehovah God (Christ). It is they alone who are the new man. That is what is in view in Ephesians 2 and 3, and which I was talking about.
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