2 Powers in Heaven

[Episkopos]

In this episode we investigate what was a legitimate, if controversial, teaching (mishnah) held by some rabbis before the coming of Christ. Also covered is how the "the 2 Powers of Heaven" controversy was relegated to the level of heresy in the 2nd century by various Jewish councils based on the coming of Jesus Christ and the danger that this new faith posed to traditional Judaism.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Episkopos We standby and watch as you fall head-first into heresy.

The following video shows the teaching of the early church, but you are following Roman Catholic theology and most of western theologies instead, with the addition of Augustines' heresy that the Holy Spirit is not a person but a force (of love between the two).

God the Father is the creator of all. The Son is begotten and the Spirit proceedeth from the Father.

Just stating the facts, I will not argue about it.

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos We standby and watch as you fall head-first into heresy.

You are just being religious and quick to judge. The heresy is the denial of Jesus as God. I am upholding the truth of apostolic Christianity. AND...what is plainly stated in the bible. Jesus was always IN God and God was always in Him...because He is God along with His Father. One Spirit in TWO Persons, Father and Son.

This thread is about Jesus being God. And some Jews knowing that there were 2 powers in heaven being described in the scriptures...until the 2nd century where that became a heresy and a threat to Judaism.

The following video shows that Monarchial Trinitarianism was the teaching of the early church, as explained in the Nicene Creed but you are following Roman Catholic theology and most of western theologies instead, with the addition of Augustines' heresy that the Holy Spirit is not a person but a force (of love between the two).

You are actually following Catholic dogmatic beliefs created centuries after the coming of Christ. I am speaking about a controversy that existed in Judaism prior to the coming of Jesus. The "two powers in heaven" is a Jewish doctrine held by some based on bible study. And that second Power in heaven is the Christ. You can deny that if you wish.

 

[Episkopos]

The only danger that this teaching poses is to traditional Judaism...oh, and maybe also to dogmatic Catholic ideological revisionism and control.

It should be something for actual Christians to embrace...that the Jews already had an understanding of a God in Two Persons...before the coming of Christ. The "shtey rashouyot hashamayim" (Two Powers in Heaven) is a thing! It predates Christianity! And some Jews embraced the Christ as such... both the Father AND the other Lord, the Son of the Father, now revealed as Jesus the Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

It is a good thing to give thanks unto the Lord, and to sing praises unto thy name, O Most High: Ps. 92:1

Thank Jesus and sing praises to the Father.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

In this episode we investigate what was a legitimate, if controversial, teaching (mishnah) held by some rabbis before the coming of Christ. Also covered is how the "the 2 Powers of Heaven" controversy was relegated to the level of heresy in the 2nd century by various Jewish councils based on the coming of Jesus Christ and the danger that this new faith posed to traditional Judaism.

Jesus is about Salvation, to bring one to The Father !
Jesus is our path to God !
We can not get to the Father but only through Christ Jesus !

Jesus is the dude who walked on Earth but when Jesus went to Heaven, be was Christ Jesus ! It is Now that we can know him ? through the Holy Spirit !

Before Christ Jesus, Was the Saviour ? He came to Save our Souls. So that we would know him ?
Now the followers of Jesus had faith, that he was the one ! The one that Holy Moses said would come ! but they did not know him truly untill he became Christ Jesus in fact and it was them who became the first Christians in fact ! the Worthy Jews of God ! Period ! They made the Grade.

As to God the Father, well he made everything and is as so. So the Laws are set rergardless, you abiden in Christ Jesus or you will be a Curse !

The Cursed will only bring about just that, a Curse ! for they are just that ! because they are Lost !
So if you want bad things to happen ? we will reap what the Cursed Sow in fact !
The OT shows that in fact ! The Jews turned from God ? and they failed ! why did they fail, because such are under a Curse ! they had lack of direction.

So one has to abide in Christ Jesus regardless ! do not worry about the Father ? as the Father Will and Is that force, that a fool will come up against, it's just reality ! like gravity ! you do not respect gravity, so be it ! you will reap your disregard for it.

God the Father is not Jesus ? but they are one in the same, as regards You in fact, Why well because no one can bypass Christ Jesus ! as all 3 are one in the Same ! if you try to take out one ? then you are Lost !

The OT Jews had 2 = one was the Spirit ! the other was Man. They knew of God but did not Know God ? For they needed the Holy Spirit ? as it had not come yet ? It was Jesus who brought the Holy Spirit about, for it was in him ! People only know Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit in fact !

You all need the Holy Spirit, because Jesus is the Holy Spirit !
Now Jesus said of himself, I only do the will of my Father ! Period ! He was Sent to us ! to Save our Soul's. He is God in fact, regards us ! one can not enter any other way in fact !

Now look what we done to Jesus ? Carnal Religious man ! such came at him, as the Pearls before Swine Story in fact ! That is what Carnal Religious Man is in fact ! good for nothing in fact, a Curse ! an abomination !

An Abomination rejects the laws of Gravity, one could say regarding God the Father. But Christ Jesus is the Key ! you abide in him and that is the Light !
Like the Johnny Cash song, it's true ! I saw the Light. I pointed this song out to a very religious brother in law and he rejected such ! that's because he is not born again in fact, for if he was, he would respond directly, regardless. It's true ! even it you have hardships ? the bottom line is it's True ! Jesus is not the problem ! and God the Farther is not the problem ! It's You ! you are the problem. because your on the wrong path in fact.

 

[Lambano]

I've run across references to Segal's work in some of my other reading. Is the book worth dropping $40 US on it?

 

[Episkopos]

I've run across references to Segal's work in some of my other reading. Is the book worth dropping $40 US on it?

It depends. The book is very technical about the subject. It's scholarly...more than it is contemporary Christian accessible. I find it "useful" as I am interested in the groundwork of establishing the subject of the "two powers" teaching. Even the Hebrew in it is written in a code that has to be deciphered by a legend at the beginning of the book.

So it is a challenge of sorts to read and study. But it is truthful. At a time where many Christian books deviate from the truth...there's something to ponder.

 

[Episkopos]

And he (The Lord) said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, you, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship afar off. Ex. 24:1


Here is another verse that is used...or was used...by rabbis to show that there is another power in heaven referred to as Lord (YHVH) beside the Lord Most High. Christians know that Lord as Jesus the Christ. The Son of the Father.

 

[Lizbeth]

You are just being religious and quick to judge. The heresy is the denial of Jesus as God. I am upholding the truth of apostolic Christianity. AND...what is plainly stated in the bible. Jesus was always IN God and God was always in Him...because He is God along with His Father. One Spirit in TWO Persons, Father and Son.

This thread is about Jesus being God. And some Jews knowing that there were 2 powers in heaven being described in the scriptures...until the 2nd century where that became a heresy and a threat to Judaism.


1Jo 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

You are actually following Catholic dogmatic beliefs created centuries after the coming of Christ. I am speaking about a controversy that existed in Judaism prior to the coming of Jesus. The "two powers in heaven" is a Jewish doctrine held by some based on bible study. And that second Power in heaven is the Christ. You can deny that if you wish.

This is a hard thing to understand and I'm not sure it is something we should argue about for that reason. So I don't want to argue but just point out this verse (and maybe you've taken it into account, I don't know):

1Jo 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And if we are obeying the leading and unctions of the Spirit of God we are obeying God.

I'm not convinced that this is something we can nail down this side of heaven.

 

[Lambano]

And he (The Lord) said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, you, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship afar off. Ex. 24:1

Is Segal's argument that YHWH is referring to YHWH as a third person in this command given to Moses, so if taken literally, YHWH must be two distinct persons?

 

[Episkopos]

Is Segal's argument that YHWH is referring to YHWH as a third person in this command given to Moses, so if taken literally, YHWH must be two distinct persons?

Segal doesn't express his own opinion in the book. But he does state that the second YHWH is Jesus according to Justin Martyr...in the early second century. So yes...I see two distinct YHWH in the bible...I count at least 16 times where YHWH mentions another person also called YHWH.

 

[Episkopos]

This is a hard thing to understand and I'm not sure it is something we should argue about for that reason. So I don't want to argue but just point out this verse (and maybe you've taken it into account, I don't know):

1Jo 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And if we are obeying the leading and unctions of the Spirit of God we are obeying God.

I'm not convinced that this is something we can nail down this side of heaven.

You have quoted a verse that was added in the 16th century.....the Johanine comma. That verse is no longer seen as authentic...by anyone. Another Catholic addition to the text...just like Matt. 28:19. I covered this in the video.

And we can know much more than people think they can. For those with faith...the Holy Spirit guides us into ALL truth. The only thing is that as a person knows more of the truth...he loses more and more people who have settled for a lesser faith and consequently don't seek for more.

 

[Lizbeth]

You have quoted a verse that was added in the 16th century.....the Johanine comma. That verse is no longer seen as authentic...by anyone. Another Catholic addition to the text...just like Matt. 28:19. I covered this in the video.

And we can know much more than people think they can. For those with faith...the Holy Spirit guides us into ALL truth. The only thing is that as a person knows more of the truth...he loses more and more people who have settled for a lesser faith and consequently don't seek for more.

ok, that was news to me. Had to look that up.....added first by Erasmus apparently? Do you know if this is something generally accepted by Christian bible scholars now, or is it still being debated?

(Agree with your second comment to a point, but think that deeper revelatory things should not be argued over such as to cause division. We are not to cause our brothers/sisters to stumble on account of our meat. The bible also says the revealed things belong to us but the secret things belong to God. We are not to be like God who knows both good and evil but keep to our rightful station and acknowledge HIM as the source of whatever knowledge and wisdom that we need at any time. There is also an admonition in Revelation about not knowing the deep things of Satan. So, there are limits or boundaries, in a manner of speaking.)

 

[Episkopos]

ok, that was news to me. Had to look that up.....added first by Erasmus apparently? Do you know if this is something generally accepted by Christian bible scholars now, or is it still being debated?

It is now generally accepted because of the work of bible scholars...who embarrassed church organizations into having some kind of honesty...if that is even possible among dogmatic types. Those verses, the "comma" have now been exposed as fraudulent and been removed. There is a deeper work of doing the same with Matt. 28:19 and getting it back to the way it was and recorded by the first church historian, Eusebius.

(Agree with your second comment to a point, but think that deeper revelatory things should not be argued over such as to cause division. We are not to cause our brothers/sisters to stumble on account of our meat. The bible also says the revealed things belong to us but the secret things belong to God.

A doctrine that was held by Jews long before Jesus came...and PROVES that Jesus is God, is something for all believers to embrace and present back to the Jews...minus the pagan influences and bids for control over the church.

We are not to be like God who knows both good and evil but keep to our rightful station and acknowledge HIM as the source of whatever knowledge and wisdom that we need at any time. There is also an admonition in Revelation about not knowing the deep things of Satan. So, there are limits or boundaries, in a manner of speaking.)

It's funny that bible teachers have no limits on the errors they teach. Any correction into the truth should be embraced by any true seeker.

I don't believe its too late in the game to teach the truth. Rather, we should say...what took us so long...

 

[Johann]

In this episode we investigate what was a legitimate, if controversial, teaching (mishnah) held by some rabbis before the coming of Christ. Also covered is how the "the 2 Powers of Heaven" controversy was relegated to the level of heresy in the 2nd century by various Jewish councils based on the coming of Jesus Christ and the danger that this new faith posed to traditional Judaism.

On the two powers.

 

[Lizbeth]

It is now generally accepted because of the work of bible scholars...who embarrassed church organizations into having some kind of honesty...if that is even possible among dogmatic types. Those verses, the "comma" have now been exposed as fraudulent and been removed. There is a deeper work of doing the same with Matt. 28:19 and getting it back to the way it was and recorded by the first church historian, Eusebius.

I have no idea.....wouldn't mind hearing from others about this. At first glance it seems that to take either of those verses out you might have to also take out another verse that goes along with each. But I myself don't know anything about these things. (And even if they were added, it wouldn't necessarily follow by that alone that they are untrue.)

A doctrine that was held by Jews long before Jesus came...and PROVES that Jesus is God, is something for all believers to embrace and present back to the Jews...minus the pagan influences and bids for control over the church.

Was only speaking in a general sense. I believe the divinity of Jesus to be foundational and doctrinal....that is explicit in places in the new testament, and our hearts know it. Even Jesus talking about the one leper who came back to Him to give thanks to God....I believe was implying that coming to give thanks to Him was coming to give thanks to God. Coming to Jesus is coming to God. The other lepers were on their way to the temple to show themselves to the priests....why couldn't they have just thanked God there?

It's funny that bible teachers have no limits on the errors they teach. Any correction into the truth should be embraced by any true seeker.

I don't believe its too late in the game to teach the truth. Rather, we should say...what took us so long...

I'm just not convinced this whole subject is something that needs to be taught as doctrine and must be defended. It seems more "revelatory" to me than foundational.

 

[Johann]

I have no idea.....wouldn't mind hearing from others about this. At first glance it seems that to take either of those verses out you might have to also take out another verse that goes along with each. But I myself don't know anything about these things. (And even if they were added, it wouldn't necessarily follow by that alone that they are untrue.)

Simplified.

 

[Lizbeth]

Simplified.

Thanks Johann.....all the links you posted are not activated for some reason. Can you try again?

 

[Lizbeth]

ok, never mind, sorry...it works when I "replied" to your post.