Premils won't understand the amil view until they understand this.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus will never enforce the will of the Father the Father doesn't want it that way He wants justice and actions by obedience and love.

Exactly. Jesus will never be a dictator as premils falsely imagine.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Jesus does not and will never force anyone to do anything.

 

[MatthewG]

The generation is not "fullness of time". And no it has nothing to do with physical temple in the 1st Century.



Not true. The Saints always had Tribulations since the fall of Man. The same tribulation will be greater near the end prior to Second Coming.
The generation has nothing to do with First Century or false preterists' vision of 70AD "generation". I already refuted this before and I will not going to discuss this nonsense.




Wrong Jersualem. Wrong Temple. Wrong Holy City. Wrong people of the prince. And wrong timing, too.

Case closed.

Okay.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Most premils also believe that this age ends at the coming of the Lord, so that's not just an amil teaching.

I know. I think for myself.

The premils who believe this age ends at the coming of the Lord believe the thousand years is the age to come that Jesus talked about (Luke 20:34-36).

Revelation 20 speaks of two distinct occasions when people are resurrected -- the resurrection of those in Christ at his coming and the rest of the dead after the thousand years. In Luke 20, Jesus discusses the condition and situation of those who have been resurrected in any case.

Folks like David, Moses, Job, Daniel, and Abraham are not "in Christ", but they are sons of the resurrection nonetheless and these will be resurrected in the second group and given a place in David's eternal kingdom.

But amils (except for some partial preterists) believe that the age to come is ushered in with the eternal new heavens and new earth.

Doesn't everyone?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus ruling with a rod of iron represents Him destroying His enemies, not ruling over them as you imagine.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

I'm in need of some clarification on this. How does it work? Once Jesus destroys them, how does he then rule over them?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Exactly. Jesus will never be a dictator as premils falsely imagine.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Jesus does not and will never force anyone to do anything.

You base this on what?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus ruling with a rod of iron represents Him destroying His enemies, not ruling over them as you imagine.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

One more thing. After further thought I remembered the prophet saying that people would come to Jerusalem seeking wisdom and information. And Jesus takes his throne in Jerusalem after the world is devastated. Bearing this in mind, we can conclude at least two things: 1) people voluntarily come to Jerusalem, and 2) the rod of iron destroys governments, religious institutions, and all other organized forms of authority, but not necessarily all unbelievers.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Verse 7 shows when satan is released

Verse 5 tells us when the rest of the dead lived again

Verse 12 shows us when the rest of the dead lived again, on the judgement day which is after satan is released, has his last assault on the church and is cast into the lake of fire. Thus the binding ends before the reigning.

For the eternal reign of God when New Jerusalem comes down to earth? I agree! but for the Millennial Kingdom when Jesus reigns on earth for 1000 years? No Scripture says Satan is bound first.

 

[Marty fox]

For the eternal reign of God when New Jerusalem comes down to earth? I agree! but for the Millennial Kingdom when Jesus reigns on earth for 1000 years? No Scripture says Satan is bound first.

The reigning and the binding starts at the same time

 

[TribulationSigns]

The reigning and the binding starts at the same time

Agreed! At the Cross, not in the future as most supposed.

The establishment and reigning of the Kingdom (through the church) cannot start until the strong man, Satan, has to be bound FIRST, per Matthew 12.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Agreed! At the Cross, not in the future as most supposed.

The establishment and reigning of the Kingdom (through the church) cannot start until the strong man, Satan, has to be bound FIRST, per Matthew 12.

Satan hasn't been bound yet. Remember what Peter said?

1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Since the Devil prowls around like a roaring lion, he is not bound.

 

[IndianaRob]

Satan hasn't been bound yet. Remember what Peter said?

1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Since the Devil prowls around like a roaring lion, he is not bound.

Satan isn’t bound for everyone, just those that are born of God.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Satan hasn't been bound yet.

Oh...yes! He has been bound since the Cross. The real problem is that you do NOT understand the purpose of his binding which is for the sake of God's Elect. For example, you said:

Remember what Peter said?

1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Since the Devil prowls around like a roaring lion, he is not bound.

Satan was bound in the bottomless pit the same way God explains it. In other words, though Satan was destroyed [katargeo] that he is brought down to idleness or uselessness by the death of Christ so that the nations (or Gentiles) can be saved (instead of being deceived), he is clearly in another sense "not destroyed" for the world and still active in the world. This is why while God has His Elect secured (saved), they shall suffer tribulation in the world BECAUSE Satan STILL WORKS through unsaved people whom God does not plan to seal, but he cannot harm the Elect.

Hebrews 2:14-15

• "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
• And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

Shall we ask God how He says Satan is destroyed, and yet is still active in the world? Yes, we should! And you did and the answer is found by comparing Scripture with Scripture, searching the Bible in the Spirit of obedience. Then we come to understand that Satan was bound and spiritually chained and made idle for the sake of the elect of the nations, but not for the world. He cannot harm the elect, but he goes about seeking whom he may devour of the world. Selah! What do you expect the binding of Satan should looks like? A world peace? No earthquake? No wars?

No, God said that iniquity was restrained or "held down" [katecho] so that it could not overcome the church, and yet God's Word says it was still working, even then in the world, through the UNSAVED -- the people whom God will not seal! As indeed Paul declared unambiguously in 2nd Thessalonians.

2nd Thessalonians 2:6-7

• "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
• For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Iniquity was RESTRAINED by the victory Christ accomplished in overcoming Satan at the cross, and yet the Apostle Paul under inspiration of God clearly says that Christ was even then letteth (restrained) it, and He would continue to restrain it until He be taken out of the way (midst). So it's not really such a great mystery. Satan was restrained for the sake of the Elect of the nations, that they not be deceived while Christ built His church (Revelation 20). That is the purpose of the millennial Kingdom!

They must be Biblically and Spiritually discerned. That is to say, we explain it Biblically by what God has written in His holy word. By searching the scriptures to know why God had bound Satan in the first place, and why God will loose Satan when the reason for his binding has been accomplished, which is when all Elect has been secured AND the testimony of the Church is COMPLETED!

Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Satan isn’t bound for everyone, just those that are born of God.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Bingo! Just as I have explained.

 

[TribulationSigns]

They must be Biblically and Spiritually discerned. That is to say, we explain it Biblically by what God has written in His holy word. By searching the scriptures to know why God had bound Satan in the first place, and why God will loose Satan when the reason for his binding has been accomplished, which is when all Elect has been secured AND the testimony of the Church is COMPLETED!

Selah!

And I want to add some more for you to consider:

Rev 20:7-9
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

During the Millennial Kingdom since the Cross, God was busy sealing (saving) His Elect through the testimony of His Two Witnesses' testimony while Satan was busy working through unsaved men in the world trying to cause problems to or slow down the building of the Church, just like what happened with Jersualem when Nehemiah had his builders armed with weapons to defend the city while building (Nehemiah 4:17-18). This is how God paints a spiritual picture for His Church during the millennial kingdom with Saints as the Two Witnesses, armed with the Word of God fighting while building the church! So what happens when the testimony of Two WItnesses for the purpose of building the church is FINISHED. Satan gets out of Bottomless Pit.

Rev 11:7
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Satan will once again deceive the nations as He did before the Cross. The question is, exactly who will he deceive this time after he is loosened? God have finished sealing all of His people and Satan already have the rest of the world under his camp after the millennial kingdom, so who will Satan going to deceive and where is his TARGET? Consider the verses again:

Rev 20:7-9
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

If the unsaved world is already under Satan's control, so what target Satan is going after? It is the CAMP OF THE SAINTS - THE CHURCH! Why? Did you think that everyone who are in the churches all over the world are saved today? I am sorry to say but No, that is NOT the case!

Mat 22:14
(14) For many are called, but few are chosen.

God has called MANY people into His Church as part of the building (just as Noah hired many people to help building the ark) since the Cross but only few are actually chosen. Therefore, it is MANY PEOPLE in the Church that Satan is ALLOWED by God to come into His church to deceive! Please consider the verses wisely:

Rev 9:1-6
(1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

The star signifies church. Here God is talking about church that has been fallen from heaven because of her apostasy and abomination. It is her who is responsible for loosening Satan and God is using him to judgment His unfaithful church. So you see, Satan was restrained in the bottomless pit from attacking the Church until the building of the church was finished. After this, the church has grown apostasy and has fallen into apostasy which is why she (with the key of bottomless pit) helped loosen Satan to came out of the bottomless pit through her disobedience!
Rev 18:2
(2) And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Rev 17:16-18
(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
(18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

This whore of Babylon is God's external church. Those people who are in the court without the temple!

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The "reed like unto a rod" illustrates the rule of a King in RULE and CORRECTION. It is a measurement of the temple where all worshippers within are God's children the Elect! The Word is the rule of God intended for everything from discipline, to coparsion, to estimation, to evaluation and guidance. it is a spiritual rod against which the temple boy of worshippers therein may be tested for trueness. Selah! The reed of measurement signifies the rod of correction, the Word, that you, me and His people may see t heir error, repent and be corrected. This is something God did NOT do with professed Christians who are also part of the Holy City but they are found in the "court which is WITHOUT the temple". IN ot her words, they are not disciplined, corrected. They may be called by God, but they are not chosen! They are not saved and only give lip serving to God.

So those people in the court, outside the temple, are the very people Satan will come to deceive to make sure they are as lost as the rest of the world in Satan's camp!

Rev 9:3-6
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

In those days, when Satan is loosened, people IN THE CONGREGATION will seek SALVATION or have DESIRED TO BE SAVED, by death in Christ, but they cannot find it because God has removed it from them! Why? Because God has finished sealing all of His people already!

These professed Christians do not realize this which is why Satan will deceive them into an army of Gog and Magog, thinking they are saved and serving God but in reality, they are attacking the testimony of God's True Saints. For example, they accused True Saints of being judgmental for not allowing homosexuals to wed or become pastors in the Churches. The enemies will insist that women are allowed to be pastors. They will promote the prosperity gospel. Etc. Etc.

Please note what the army of Gog and Magog wear in Ezezkiel 38. These are mimic of the same armor and weaponry that God gave to His True People (Ephesians 6)! They are our true enemies right within the Church! Not Russia! Satan is deceiving people of the congregation and make them part of his army of Gog and Magog to attack God's chosen to silence their truthful testimony. This is why CHrist warned us of the rise of false prophets and christs in Matthew 24. This will take place for a short season before Christ Return.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The reigning and the binding starts at the same time

Around the same time. but not simultaneously like say 12:01 PM on A THURSDAY. After satan is bond into the abyss, the first resurrection occurs, and with that the giving of where the trib saints will reign. This all takes some time.

 

[Reddsta]

There is not one that says he has power over us.

Greetings WPM...I have a question...

What is your understanding of the "apostasy?"

Redd...:)

 

[WPM]

Greetings WPM...I have a question...

What is your understanding of the "apostasy?"

Redd...:)

I believe it is a spirit of antichrist that is released at the end and which is enabled by the false prophet - a religious apostate spirit.

 

[WPM]

Satan hasn't been bound yet. Remember what Peter said?

1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Since the Devil prowls around like a roaring lion, he is not bound.

Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small Jesus, Amil has a BIG Jesus and small devil. Satan is chained. He is restrained. He is defeated. The Christian has authority over him and his minions. His territory has been invaded for 2000 years. The Church is everywhere. He can only hurt those who get close to him.

Yes 1 Peter 5:8 says, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” but you fail to complete the teaching of the passage or grasp the power the believer possesses. The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.” We have power over Satan since the cross!

While Satan resists you, the Bible says you have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against you.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” This is a well-tested principle that the saints of old have proved down through the years. You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original is the Greek word pheugo. It means to escape, flee away or vanish.

Because of Christ's defeat of Satan on the cross, we have complete authority over the enemy. He cannot do what he wants with us. We are protected by God and armed with real spiritual power. We merely have to submit to God, resist the devil and he must flee from us.

 

[WPM]

I'm in need of some clarification on this. How does it work? Once Jesus destroys them, how does he then rule over them?

The word should be rendered "shepherd" not "rule." It is called the judgment. Revelation 2:25-27: “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end [Gr. telos], to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule [Gr. poimaino] them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ [Gr. suntribo]: even as I received of my Father.”

The unindoctrinated mind will have no difficulty understanding the truth being presented here. It's very clear and unambiguous. We are looking at the total wholesale destruction of the wicked. That is what awaits the ungodly when Jesus comes.

Christ is talking to the Church (the elect/the overcomers) and telling them that they will have "power" over "the nation" when He comes (speaking of Judgment Day). He then shows that this will correspond with the destruction of the nations: "as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers." How can the nations survive? They cannot!

Please note that there is no mention of a future 1,000 years. That is because Revelation 20 relates to the here-and-now. When Christ comes it is "the end" (see it in the text above)!

Premils have to ignore/dismiss the crucial words patasso, meaning to smite, and suntribo, meaning to break to shivers, in Revelation 2:25-27. There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as they imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.

There is no reward awaiting these proud Christ-rejecters. When a pot is broken with an iron rod it is destroyed, not subjugated. It's state changes completely and it does not continue in its prior state. When therefore the wicked are “broken,” “dashed to pieces,” “cut off,” then “the wicked shall be no more” at the second coming. This is not an exercise in rulership, subjugation, or discipline; but rather their total obliteration; thus, the meaning of the analogy of the rod and the pottery. The vivid picture painted is of the potter destroying an unwanted useless vessel.

You need to see what the word poimaino means and how similar kindred words are interpreted elsewhere in Scripture. The word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with no ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

Whatever the “rule” here relates to, it involves the wholesale destruction of the wicked. This demolishes the whole Premillennialist thesis of this event ushering 1000 years of perfect bliss with the righteous reigning over the mortal wicked on a regenerated earth in perfect justice.

The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should smite the nations [Gr. patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous], and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”

The coming of Christ is not to high-five sin and mollycoddle sinners. It is to judge sinners and banish sin from the earth forever. Premil ushers countless mortal rebels unto the new earth, but Scripture shows they are all totally destroyed. The new earth is incorrupt! Only the incorrupt can possess it. Your argument conflicts with clear and repeated Scripture.

A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is actually coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.

 

[WPM]

I know. I think for myself.

Revelation 20 speaks of two distinct occasions when people are resurrected -- the resurrection of those in Christ at his coming and the rest of the dead after the thousand years. In Luke 20, Jesus discusses the condition and situation of those who have been resurrected in any case.

Folks like David, Moses, Job, Daniel, and Abraham are not "in Christ", but they are sons of the resurrection nonetheless and these will be resurrected in the second group and given a place in David's eternal kingdom.

Doesn't everyone?

Yes. Christ's resurrection 2000 years ago and the approaching physical resurrection of all mankind.