Premils won't understand the amil view until they understand this.

[Marty fox]

Given what we hear in the news every day, do you believe Jesus is in charge?

Yes we have free will but that doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't reign and isn't in control.

 

[Marty fox]

I don't see what you see.

erse 7 shows when satan is released

Verse 5 tells us when the rest of the dead lived again

Verse 12 shows us when the rest of the dead lived again, on the judgement day which is after satan is released, has his last assault on the church and is cast into the lake of fire. Thus the binding ends before the reigning.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes we have free will but that doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't reign and isn't in control.

Jesus has free will also but he obeys the will of the Father. During the Millennial period, Jesus will enforce the will of the Father on the earth. Since this hasn't happened yet, the Millennial period hasn't started yet.

 

[Marty fox]

Jesus has free will also but he obeys the will of the Father. During the Millennial period, Jesus will enforce the will of the Father on the earth. Since this hasn't happened yet, the Millennial period hasn't started yet.

Jesus will never enforce the will of the Father the Father doesn't want it that way He wants justice and actions by obedience and love.

 

[TribulationSigns]

the fullness of time would be a generation 40 years.

Where do you find this in Scripture that the 40 years is considered "fullness of time?"

 

[CadyandZoe]

erse 7 shows when satan is released

Verse 5 tells us when the rest of the dead lived again

Verse 12 shows us when the rest of the dead lived again, on the judgement day which is after satan is released, has his last assault on the church and is cast into the lake of fire. Thus the binding ends before the reigning.

I'm trying to understand your perspective but I'm still not seeing it. Sorry. Does the reign of Jesus end? Or do you mean the reign of the saints ends?

 

[MatthewG]

Where do you find that in Scripture that the fullness of time is 40 years??

40 years would be a generation. Jersualem was desolated in 70ad.

Jesus foretold of a tribulation for one generation. A generation is typically 40 years biblically.

Joshua 5:6 Yes, for forty years the Israelites walked through the wilderness until the whole nation was gone—all the fighting men who had gone out from Egypt, who had not listened to the voice of the Lord. The Lord had sworn to them that they would not see the land that the Lord had sworn to their fathers to give us, a land flowing with milk and honey.

Response stopped

Sent by Copilot:​

It sounds like you’re referring to the period when the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years before entering the Promised Land. During this time, Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, known as the Torah or the Pentateuch. These books include Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy1.
The 40-year period was a result of the Israelites’ lack of faith and obedience, leading God to decree that the generation that left Egypt would not enter the Promised Land2. This time was also marked by various events and teachings that Moses documented, which have had a lasting impact on religious traditions.
Is there a specific aspect of this story you’re curious about?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus will never enforce the will of the Father the Father doesn't want it that way He wants justice and actions by obedience and love.

Why does it say that he will rule with a rod of iron? Doesn't this sound like enforcement?

In Revelation 20 it says that thrones are set up. Doesn't the presence of thrones suggest judgment, justice, and arbitration?

 

[Marty fox]

Why does it say that he will rule with a rod of iron? Doesn't this sound like enforcement?

In Revelation 20 it says that thrones are set up. Doesn't the presence of thrones suggest judgment, justice, and arbitration?

No that is showing unrepentant judgement

Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verse above Paul talked as in a presence tense and as in reigning in life not judgement

 

[Marty fox]

I'm trying to understand your perspective but I'm still not seeing it. Sorry. Does the reign of Jesus end? Or do you mean the reign of the saints ends?

We reign with Jesus until the end of our world which is after satans binding

 

[rebuilder 454]

Look at what Paul says about all of this below

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

It is not "either <> or"

We both rule and reign now and in the FUTURE mil.
The Bible sword has two edges.
( which is the stumbling block of the "one dimensional doctrine" of election vs choice)
Again..that dynamic is both chosen and free will.
Side by side truths of the Bible.

Jesus a lion.? Is Jesus a lamb? Yes he is both. But but how can he be both?

 

[CadyandZoe]

No that is showing unrepentant judgement

Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verse above Paul talked as in a presence tense and as in reigning in life not judgement

Both the Premillennial view and the Amillennial view teach that Jesus rules over his church. We can both agree on that point.

The discussion is focused on the meaning of Revelation 20:4 and whether John is discussing the church age or something else. Suppose he is discussing the church age, does this mean that I need to become a martyr to be a member of Christ's church?

 

[CadyandZoe]

We reign with Jesus until the end of our world which is after satans binding

Why wouldn't we reign after that?

 

[WPM]

All this means is that the Millennial period is in this age and not the next.

Oh! So, you are now Amil? PTL!

 

[Marty fox]

Why wouldn't we reign after that?

Because we

Both the Premillennial view and the Amillennial view teach that Jesus rules over his church. We can both agree on that point.

The discussion is focused on the meaning of Revelation 20:4 and whether John is discussing the church age or something else. Suppose he is discussing the church age, does this mean that I need to become a martyr to be a member of Christ's church?

Nope because Paul said this below while he was alive on earth

Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

The point ion rev 20:4 is that we still reign even if we have been Martyred

 

[CadyandZoe]

Oh! So, you are now Amil? PTL!

No. I am not Amil. Unlike Amil, I don't believe this age ends at the coming of the Lord.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Because we

Nope because Paul said this below while he was alive on earth

Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

The point ion rev 20:4 is that we still reign even if we have been Martyred

Given that Paul was on Earth when he wrote his epistle, doesn't this indicate that we are in union with Christ?

I understand that martyred Christians remain in union with Christ after they die. However, I am struggling to understand how they are able to reign with him while being deceased. This concept seems like a stretch to me. While we have victory over death in a provisional sense now, I find it hard to grasp the idea that we are ruling and judging others while being dead.

With that in mind, what do you think of Jesus' promise to his apostles that they would rule over the twelve tribes of Israel? Matthew 19:28. Isn't it interesting that Jesus mentions thrones in that context, given that John mentions thrones in Revelation 20:4?

What do you make of that?

 

[TribulationSigns]

the fullness of time would be a generation 40 years. In my opinion, when Jesus proclaimed the falling for the temple and destruction.

The generation is not "fullness of time". And no it has nothing to do with physical temple in the 1st Century.

Jesus proclaimed only one tribulation, happening to a specific generation which was there listening to his voice.

Not true. The Saints always had Tribulations since the fall of Man. The same tribulation will be greater near the end prior to Second Coming.
The generation has nothing to do with First Century or false preterists' vision of 70AD "generation". I already refuted this before and I will not going to discuss this nonsense.

I believe 40 years after this proclamation it happened, cause in 70Ad Jerusalem is destroyed.

Wrong Jersualem. Wrong Temple. Wrong Holy City. Wrong people of the prince. And wrong timing, too.

Case closed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. I am not Amil. Unlike Amil, I don't believe this age ends at the coming of the Lord.

Most premils also believe that this age ends at the coming of the Lord, so that's not just an amil teaching. The premils who believe this age ends at the coming of the Lord believe the thousand years is the age to come that Jesus talked about (Luke 20:34-36). But amils (except for some partial preterists) believe that the age to come is ushered in with the eternal new heavens and new earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why does it say that he will rule with a rod of iron? Doesn't this sound like enforcement?

In Revelation 20 it says that thrones are set up. Doesn't the presence of thrones suggest judgment, justice, and arbitration?

Jesus ruling with a rod of iron represents Him destroying His enemies, not ruling over them as you imagine.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.