Daniel's Final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 Made Simple

[CTK]

Then so would all of the millions of sheep sacrificed as innocent for the thousands of daily sacrifices, since the Law was established by Moses from God.

I have no idea what you are trying to say....

If you want to discuss your interpretations that would be fine...

 

[Timtofly]

First, you need to realize that John does "NOT" say he saw the martyrs, nor does he say that he saw their bodies or the persons, or he saw souls (which could be illustrating people). He is very specific! Be careful. He saw the souls "OF" those who were beheaded for the witness of God. The souls of them, nothing more! Again, this is the Spiritual picture that the Lord is giving us. First the Messenger of the Covenant comes from heaven and binds Satan so that the New Covenant Church can be built, and then John sees the souls of those martyred raised up to reign with Christ on thrones. In other words, they are made kings and Priests unto God after Christ binds Satan. If you look at verse 5 you'll see that this (the souls of these martyrs up on thrones) is called The First Resurrection. It's now a simple matter of Biblical deduction to discover exactly when and what was "The First Resurrection?" Selah!

The first resurrection is a judgment event. It is the sentence handed down. You will receive the first resurrection when your soul stands in judgment the instant your dead corruptible body physically dies.


These souls do not stand before Christ. This is a judgment on earth by multiple thrones/judges.

That is when the first resurrection happens, a new permanent incorruptible physical body.

You seem to equate an event that can only happen to a soul after physical death, to a spiritual event prior to physical death.

 

[Timtofly]

I don’t know where this comes from. I don’t believe any week in Daniel 9 is a week of years so if I said that then it was a typo.

My whole contention is that people are changing the meaning of “week” to years.

Jacob served Laban for 7 years then Laban gave Jacob Leah. Jacob and Leah started a 7 day period (1 week) on the wedding night.

Then Jacob was upset because Laban tricked him. Laban told Jacob to finish the wedding week (a 7 day period starting with the day Jacob had physical union with Leah) he had started with Leah.

Laban told Jacob that after Jacob finished her 7 day marriage period, then if he would serve him 7 more years then Laban would give Rachel as Joseph’s wife.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

That is the covenant that Christ confirmed on the cross.

You understand that the same Hebrew word can be either years or days depending on context. No one says a "week" means "years". It is either a week of years or a week of days. Or: a set of 7 days or a set of 7 years.

So 70 weeks can mean 70 sets of 7 years or 70 sets of 7 days. But the translator or one interpreting Hebrew, can only go by context. That is Hebrew grammar not a day year principle.

The 7th Trumpet of Revelation is the final confirmation of the Atonement Covenant. That was Gabriel's point.

The Prince to come part has not been fulfilled. Jesus is both Messiah and Prince to come, that is the definition of the 70th week. It will not be a 7 year period. But 3.5 years has been accomplished as Messiah.

Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled at the same time as what Paul told us about in Romans 11. Romans 11 was written decades after the church would have already taught what you are trying to introduce 2 millennia later. Paul is no where close to your assessment:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

The Second Coming is when Israel will be turned away from ungodliness, and their sin taken away. That is echoed by John in Revelation 10:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

You may not see those promises as a mystery. You may even apply them to the spiritual work of God in Christ. But the 70 weeks will not be over until God declares them over.

 

[Timtofly]

Did Jesus fulfill "reconciliation for iniquity" for the 3,000 of Daniel's people in Jerusalem who received Him on the Day of Pentecost? Acts 2:41

No one yet has answered this question.

Give it your try.

Do they have permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise?

If you say no, then you still have them in a state of death, without a physical body. Daniel 9:24 has not been realized for them.

I say they do have permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise. So they are made alive, and enjoying Paradise, as Daniel 9:24 states. The only part left of their being made alive is to put on the robe of white at the 5th Trumpet, the Second Coming.

Until Adam's transgression is removed from creation, Daniel 9:24 will not be realized. You do understand that Israel was called out of Egypt to administer the Law as a response to Adam's transgression, right?

"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Romans 5:13-14

It was only a physical outward show of obedience to the spiritual submission within the heart. Both had to be in sync. Not one doing one thing to mask what the other was lacking in. The NT was a better Covenant, but the best one is the removal of Adam's punishment entirely. You have a mortal body, so not there until that mortal body is replaced with a permanent incorruptible physical body.

 

[Timtofly]

Well, thank you for your thoughts but we are going to have to agree to disagree. The law was certainly not done away with… our sin nature was not done away with, but the animal sacrifices and offerings were done away with as a result of the perfect sacrifice of the Messiah. The “daily” is now replaced by the permanent atonement.

The new covenant was (Jeremiah 31:31-34), was confirmed by the Messiah. The covenant given to Moses required the many Levitical ceremonies/ rituals/ practices to be kept, including the animal sacrifices and offering. These “ceremonies” were the means of removing sin … they were temporary in that they had to be repeated each year. Further, they could not remove sin or stop their sin nature.

It is the same, but different with the New Covenant. Rather than the keeping of the Levitical ceremonies as the “means,” God would send His Holy Spirit to give us all the power needed to prevent us from transgressing and sinning against our God- should we choose to accept Him. But the Covenant is exactly the same—- God gave us His 10 commandments and the means on Mt. Sinai. Jesus confirmed those same commandments but gave us a “better” means to keep His commandments. A better covenant.

I understand that many agree with your interpretation that the 70th week is “still to come,” and the 6 elements that were God’s mission to His Messiah to fulfill during His ministry on earth, but that all began in the 16th century by the Jesuits who created or produced this 7 year tribulation theory or gap theory. Essentially, they took most of 9:27 and intentionally misinterpreted it away from the Messiah and threw it some 2000 years into the future. And this interpretation has been taught to the many generations of children since that time- through their schools, universities, the pulpit, etc.
Jesus certainly did not fail in His God given mission during His “shortened” ministry. But this too was planned since the beginning of the world.

If you would like to explain why the 70th week is “still to come,” or why the Messiah did not succeed in His mission before He returned to the right hand of God, I will certainly read your comments / interpretations.

I never said the 70th week is still to come. No one agrees with me, because some want it all one way and others want it all the other way.

Daniel 9:24 is not fulfilled, because you still have a mortal body.

When Daniel 9:27 is fulfilled at the end of the days of the 7th Trumpet, even salvation of the NT Covenant will be no more.

Have you convinced a Jew that the Gospel is just the same thing as an animal Sacrifice?

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."

They will tell you that being born of Jacob and keeping the Law was exactly the same thing as you telling them the Gospel is your election. Then you both will agree to disagree as that is what enemies do, instead of fight over doctrine. God loves you both via the election. But you see the election one way though the lense of the Gospel, which is an enemy to their view of election, by birth, into the Law.

Adam was the type of Christ, but disobedient. The Law was a type of Christ via animal sacrifice as a type. Jesus is the Lamb of God. So you are stuck on the Law like Jews are looking at the OT animal sacrifices which are only a type. But Daniel 9:27 is describing Jesus as the Lamb of God, not Jesus as the daily OT sacrifices.

We are not told anything explicitly about the Second Coming, so every one has faulty eschatology. We are told it will happen. We are told what happens to the church. We are even told that the wicked will be destroyed, but no one seems to be able to acknowledge that Jesus will be on earth in person as the Prince to come, just like He was on earth in person as the Messiah.

Jesus even said He would be on the earth, in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25, but every one seems to explain away with some spiritual reasoning because of the parabolic nature of Jesus' teaching.

The reason why Daniel 9 is not complete is simple and given by Paul: "until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in".

The church is removed at the Second Coming. Then Israel is dealt with directly by Jesus as their King, setting up His throne and His Temple. And how that works is a mystery, because no Scripture has been interpreted to teach that mystery. People keep denying that Jesus will be the Prince to come. Even you, because you have determined it was all fulfilled in the first century. You know, that other Jesuit disinformation? You along with all those who allege they are anti-Jesuit historical protestants who still claim most all of Jesus' work was accomplished 3.5 years after the Cross, are in the same preterist boat as futurist of the opposite mind set. That is if you keep blaming the Jesuit indoctrination. According to both sides, as they both accuse the other side of having roots in Jesuit think tank mindsets.

 

[CTK]

If a man dies today without Christ, he will physically be dead, and spiritually dead- already, but not yet.

If a man dies today in Christ, he will physically be dead, but spiritually alive, already but not yet.

God has already given us the opportunity to have our sins, transgressions and our inequities removed by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

There is nothing more we can do or need to do once we die. We have made our choice. We do not have to wait until anything else is accomplished.

Verse 9:24 has been fulfilled by Jesus at the cross and His sacrifice has removed our sin from His eyes. There is nothing more for us to do to receive this gift after we die, and there is nothing more Jesus has to do to make this gift available to us. He has fulfilled all 6 elements that are found in 9:24, otherwise, either Jesus or us or both has yet to complete “something” … I don’t believe that is the case.

 

[Timtofly]

I have no idea what you are trying to say....

If you want to discuss your interpretations that would be fine...

The abomination that causes the complete desolation of the Jews with their God for the next 2000 years was their rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah. Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 is spoken by Jesus and He is telling His disciples that when you see the AOD standing or where it ought not be standing.....

My response was to this point.

If the Lamb of God was an abomination, then so were the millions of sheep during the OT Covenant.

Why would one cause desolation and not the other? It was always God's plan that Jesus die on the Cross, since before creation.

Here is the verse again:

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The same person (Jesus the Lamb of God) confirms the Covenant, and then He (Jesus the Lamb of God) removes the daily sacrifice that represents that same Covenant.

Now the instrument who gets all the worship, because of what God allows is not Jesus. The one who benefits is Satan.

There is nothing in there about first century Jews messing up the next 2 Millennia. For one the kingdom was handed to all, even all Gentiles, so it was now in the hands of the Gentiles to mess up the kingdom and make it desolate, thus we have the RCC and what history calls the dark ages.

You cannot blame Israel for God's plan. God already knows the end from the beginning.

So the prophecy that Jesus gave that has yet to happen despite Jesuit propaganda, is noted here:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place"

This is what you claim as the Cross, no?

This is about the 7th Trumpet, and in the midst of the week of days, Satan will be handed the kingdom, and immediately have this AoD placed and ready to go, the split second, as he has already been working against Jesus from the moment of the Second Coming.

Gabriel is saying it is God doing the decision making, but the benefit will be in Satan interest, because Satan will have 100 percent control, and there will be no more an offer of Salvation as we know it or even the Jews once knew it. It will only be Satan's AoD that rules the day.

 

[Timtofly]

If a man dies today without Christ, he will physically be dead, and spiritually dead- already, but not yet.

If a man dies today in Christ, he will physically be dead, but spiritually alive, already but not yet.

God has already given us the opportunity to have our sins, transgressions and our inequities removed by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

There is nothing more we can do or need to do once we die. We have made our choice. We do not have to wait until anything else is accomplished.

Verse 9:24 has been fulfilled by Jesus at the cross and His sacrifice has removed our sin from His eyes. There is nothing more for us to do to receive this gift after we die, and there is nothing more Jesus has to do to make this gift available to us. He has fulfilled all 6 elements that are found in 9:24, otherwise, either Jesus or us or both has yet to complete “something” … I don’t believe that is the case.

Daniel 9 is not talking about God's perspective. Of course, from God's perspective the redeemed were sinless before creation even happened. That was God's election. So confident was God that He placed every single human's name, ever to be conceived from Adam and Eve into the Lamb's book of life.

The promise was given to Israel as a physical act of life on earth. Not the heavenly kingdom made up of the church both OT congregation and NT congregation. What the Cross secured for many was the heavenly kingdom.

The heavenly kingdom was not the promise in Daniel 9. The promises of Daniel 9:24 deal directly with Jesus as King over His people on earth, just like He was their Messiah to be the Lamb of God.

 

[CTK]

My response was to this point.

If the Lamb of God was an abomination, then so were the millions of sheep during the OT Covenant.

Why would one cause desolation and not the other? It was always God's plan that Jesus die on the Cross, since before creation.

Here is the verse again:

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The same person (Jesus the Lamb of God) confirms the Covenant, and then He (Jesus the Lamb of God) removes the daily sacrifice that represents that same Covenant.

Now the instrument who gets all the worship, because of what God allows is not Jesus. The one who benefits is Satan.

There is nothing in there about first century Jews messing up the next 2 Millennia. For one the kingdom was handed to all, even all Gentiles, so it was now in the hands of the Gentiles to mess up the kingdom and make it desolate, thus we have the RCC and what history calls the dark ages.

You cannot blame Israel for God's plan. God already knows the end from the beginning.

So the prophecy that Jesus gave that has yet to happen despite Jesuit propaganda, is noted here:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place"

This is what you claim as the Cross, no?

This is about the 7th Trumpet, and in the midst of the week of days, Satan will be handed the kingdom, and immediately have this AoD placed and ready to go, the split second, as he has already been working against Jesus from the moment of the Second Coming.

Gabriel is saying it is God doing the decision making, but the benefit will be in Satan interest, because Satan will have 100 percent control, and there will be no more an offer of Salvation as we know it or even the Jews once knew it. It will only be Satan's AoD that rules the day.

Jesus was indeed speaking of Himself in Matthew and Mark when He referred to the AOD standing in the holy place … or standing where He should not ought be… mentioned in Daniel…

The “Abomination” is Jesus when He took on the sin of the world. When He did this, He was an “unclean,” and an unclean thing is an abomination to the Lord (Leviticus). Of course Jesus never sinned…

There is nothing in my words that blames Israel … It was God’s plan to go to the cross before the foundation of the world. The Jews were not able to recognize their Messiah… this was His doing. But they were partially blinded and because of their disbelief and rejection and the crucifixion of their Messiah, they would be punished. God would make desolate Him from His people until the time of the Gentile is fulfilled.

God has indeed removed sin, transgression, and our inequity shown is we place our faith and trust in Him. He has fulfilled His mission given to Him by His Father otherwise His unmerited sacrifice and gift can / could not be available to us before our death. We are asked to choose to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, His sacrifice on the cross to be saved. Just as the previous covenants He entered into with man, they are conditional… but He has always fulfilled His side of the arrangement. He has completed 9:24 … There is no way God would ask us to accept this covenant He made if it was not a “finished work.”

 

[IndianaRob]

You understand that the same Hebrew word can be either years or days depending on context. No one says a "week" means "years". It is either a week of years or a week of days. Or: a set of 7 days or a set of 7 years.

The Hebrew word only means seven. The deceiver James Strong ADDED the part in red to the original word.

Properly passive participle of H7650 as a denominative of H7651; literally sevened, that is, a week (specifically of years): - seven, week.

Every single instance where H7620 is used in the Bible it always refers to 7 days.

 

[covenantee]

Do they have permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise?

Did they receive Christ?

If not, who did they receive?

Did He forgive their sins?

If not, what did He forgive?

Did they experience Christ's reconciliation for iniquity?

If not, what did they experience?

 

[Timtofly]

The Hebrew word only means seven. The deceiver James Strong ADDED the part in red to the original word.

Properly passive participle of H7650 as a denominative of H7651; literally sevened, that is, a week (specifically of years): - seven, week.

Every single instance where H7620 is used in the Bible it always refers to 7 days.

So then you are saying that the 70 weeks were over prior to 500BC? 490 days is less than 2 years.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus was indeed speaking of Himself in Matthew and Mark when He referred to the AOD standing in the holy place … or standing where He should not ought be… mentioned in Daniel…

The “Abomination” is Jesus when He took on the sin of the world. When He did this, He was an “unclean,” and an unclean thing is an abomination to the Lord (Leviticus). Of course Jesus never sinned…

There is nothing in my words that blames Israel … It was God’s plan to go to the cross before the foundation of the world. The Jews were not able to recognize their Messiah… this was His doing. But they were partially blinded and because of their disbelief and rejection and the crucifixion of their Messiah, they would be punished. God would make desolate Him from His people until the time of the Gentile is fulfilled.

God has indeed removed sin, transgression, and our inequity shown is we place our faith and trust in Him. He has fulfilled His mission given to Him by His Father otherwise His unmerited sacrifice and gift can / could not be available to us before our death. We are asked to choose to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, His sacrifice on the cross to be saved. Just as the previous covenants He entered into with man, they are conditional… but He has always fulfilled His side of the arrangement. He has completed 9:24 … There is no way God would ask us to accept this covenant He made if it was not a “finished work.”

Those promises were for the descendants of Jacob. That any Gentiles have been included is God's grace and mercy.

 

[Timtofly]

Did they receive Christ?

If not, who did they receive?

Did He forgive their sins?

If not, what did He forgive?

Did they experience Christ's reconciliation for iniquity?

If not, what did they experience?

They do have permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise. They have been made alive.

Why would you think otherwise?

 

[CTK]

Those promises were for the descendants of Jacob. That any Gentiles have been included is God's grace and mercy.

Do you mean the New Covenant He confirmed mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-34 was for His people? Then I certainly agree, however, God knew they would reject His Messiah and this offer of salvation would be extended to the Gentiles.

 

[CTK]

They do have permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise. They have been made alive.

Why would you think otherwise?

Forgive me but I have not been following all of the responses to this post... Can you elaborate or tell me who has "permanent incorruptible physical bodies that are now in Paradise?" I would not want to comment until I understand the context.... thanks.

 

[covenantee]

They do have permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise. They have been made alive.

Why would you think otherwise?

Because mercifully I don't think like you.

I think acceptance, forgiveness, reconciliation.

You don't.

 

[IndianaRob]

So then you are saying that the 70 weeks were over prior to 500BC? 490 days is less than 2 years.

No I’m not saying that at all. Daniels 70 weeks started with the ministry of John the Baptist and ended at the resurrection of Jesus and the Old Testament saints.

The 70 weeks are literal weeks in which the righteous people of Israel we’re restored and heavenly Jerusalem was built.

 

[CTK]

No I’m not saying that at all. Daniels 70 weeks started with the ministry of John the Baptist and ended at the resurrection of Jesus and the Old Testament saints.

The 70 weeks are literal weeks in which the righteous people of Israel we’re restored and heavenly Jerusalem was built.

Not sure I understand…

No I’m not saying that at all. Daniels 70 weeks started with the ministry of John the Baptist and ended at the resurrection of Jesus and the Old Testament saints.

The 70 weeks are literal weeks in which the righteous people of Israel were restored and heavenly Jerusalem was built.

I have never heard that interpretation before… interesting!
But, can you tell me how the 7, 62 and 1 week fit in with this? Didn’t the 70 weeks start at the decree to build and restore Jerusalem?

Thanks.

 

[IndianaRob]

Not sure I understand…

I have never heard that interpretation before… interesting!
But, can you tell me how the 7, 62 and 1 week fit in with this? Didn’t the 70 weeks start at the decree to build and restore Jerusalem?

Thanks.

I believe the 7 weeks were the ministry of John the Baptist and the 62 weeks were the ministry of Jesus.

Yes I know we’ve been taught the ministry of Jesus was 3 1/2 years but the same “scholars” that say that will also the 70 weeks are weeks of years.

The only week that matters as far as proving the weeks are literal weeks is the 70th week. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, he was crucified a few days later and then exactly 7 days from Palm Sunday he rose from the dead