The Rapture Cover-up

[David in NJ]

How do you understand this verse?

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Enoch is immortal in heaven but immortality can’t come until we’ve been “clothed upon” with the immortal body. Am I misunderstanding this?

Enoch is immortal in heaven but immortality can’t come until we’ve been “clothed upon” with the immortal body. Am I misunderstanding this?

You are understanding correctly.

The COMPLETE Body of Immortality will take place at the Second Coming which is the Resurrection of the Saints.

We, who are in Christ now/Today, will NEVER die = our spirit/soul will never die.
Able, Enoch, Noah, Joseph, Moses, Elijah etc etc are ALIVE Today in Heaven with the LORD waiting to Return with Christ for their
COMPLETED Immortal Bodies.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

1 Thess 4:13-18
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

“O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

 

[David in NJ]

I know a lot of people believe that but the book of Hebrews is crystal clear that all those in chapter 11 including Enoch died.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

When it says: "these all died in faith" it excludes Enoch because it clearly states: "Enoch did not see death"

God separated Enoch from his flesh body without experiencing death.

Question of the DAY: Why did God do this with Enoch and Elijah???

 

[IndianaRob]

You are understanding correctly.

The COMPLETE Body of Immortality will take place at the Second Coming which is the Resurrection of the Saints.

We, who are in Christ now/Today, will NEVER die = our spirit/soul will never die.
Able, Enoch, Noah, Joseph, Moses, Elijah etc etc are ALIVE Today in Heaven with the LORD waiting to Return with Christ for their
COMPLETED Immortal Bodies.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

1 Thess 4:13-18
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

“O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

I agree with most of what you have to say but to say believers are in heaven without their heavenly bodies is to say they’re “unclothed” isn’t?

 

[David in NJ]

Elijah didnt die either. He was taken up in a chariot of fire. Did God toss hs dead body over the side before his spirit got to heaven?!

I think not. When you read the bible brother you have to keep in mind that the book is instructions to Us. Not instuctions to God. God is not bound by our rules, lol.

God can do whatever He wants to and to whoever He wants to no matter what scripture says, unless scripture says that God will not do this or that. (Like God said, I will no more flood the earth totally anymore...

Scripture says it is appointed unto man to die once and then the Judgment. It doesnt say, and God is subject to this also to never take a man without death. He will do as He pleases.

Did God toss hs dead body over the side before his spirit got to heaven?!

LOL x 1,000,000,000

I was imagining the SAME

Did God toss hs dead body over the side before his spirit got to heaven?! I think not.

AGREE

 

[rebuilder 454]

Do you agree that the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 25 is the kingdom of heaven that is “within” us?

Luke 17:21 (KJV): “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

It is both.
It is both future and now.
It is both us and heaven.

 

[David in NJ]

I agree with most of what you have to say but to say believers are in heaven without their heavenly bodies is to say they’re “unclothed” isn’t?

They are given a 'intermediate' clothing = "with God ALL things are Possible"

"When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."
Rev 6:11

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The rapture can’t be reconciled with that verse. In fact that verse says the rapture is impossible.

Nonsense. There can be exceptions. You don't need to interpret that verse so rigidly. Lazarus and others died twice. To not allow for exceptions to that is ridiculous. Paul clearly taught that those who are alive and remain will be caught up with the resurrected dead in Christ at His second coming (1 Thess 4:14-17). To deny that will happen in the future is heresy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

None of the Christians are left behind in the parable though/ The foolish went to hell not to the GT where they get a second chance. The bible never says anyone is left behind at the rapture. 100 percent of Christians are raptured at the time of the event. The rest belong top satan and like the foolish virgins, they go to hell.

Right. Those who say "Lord, Lord, open to us", like the foolish virgins (Matthew 25:11) when Christ comes, will be cast into the fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[IndianaRob]

Nonsense. There can be exceptions. You don't need to interpret that verse so rigidly. Lazarus and others died twice. To not allow for exceptions to that is ridiculous. Paul clearly taught that those who are alive and remain will be caught up with the resurrected dead in Christ at His second coming (1 Thess 4:14-17). To deny that will happen in the future is heresy.

Paul taught clearly that WE, including himself would be alive and remain.

Somehow rapture believers can’t let that verse say what it says. The Bible doesn’t say Paul wasn’t aware of the timing of the event, rapture believers ADD that to the verse.

 

[David in NJ]

Right. Those who say "Lord, Lord, open to us", like the foolish virgins (Matthew 25:11) when Christ comes, will be cast into the fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Somebody has been reading their Bible.......

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let me see if I can clarify this. Paul teaches a harpazo, a catching away to heaven of each and every believer as it’s time to leave this world and go to heaven.

The rapture heresy hijacks that idea and claims there will be a corporate snatching away at the end of time.

What Bible are you reading, anyway? It's very clear that all believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at the same time.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This couldn't be more clear. The Lord will descend from heaven and He will have "them also which sleep in Jesus" with Him. That is the souls of the dead in Christ. Then the bodies of the dead in Christ will be resurrected (and changed to be immortal - 1 Cor 15:51-52). Then those who are alive and remain at that time will be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. At the same time. It couldn't be more clear.

 

[David in NJ]

Paul taught clearly that WE, including himself would be alive and remain.

Somehow rapture believers can’t let that verse say what it says. The Bible doesn’t say Paul wasn’t aware of the timing of the event, rapture believers ADD that to the verse.

Paul taught clearly that WE, including himself would be alive and remain.

This is not accurate or true.

Paul was hoping for the Lord's Return but later on he realized(and wrote) it was not for his generation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul taught clearly that WE, including himself would be alive and remain.

Somehow rapture believers can’t let that verse say what it says. The Bible doesn’t say Paul wasn’t aware of the timing of the event, rapture believers ADD that to the verse.

Nonsense. Paul didn't know the timing of Christ's second coming. No one knows the day or hour (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13). You are trying to make the text say what you want it to say. Your rigid, hyperliteral approach to interpreting scripture doesn't work. You need to use spiritual discernment. He said that the dead in Christ will be resurrected and together with those who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air when Jesus comes. This is very simple and you're still missing it because you've been blinded by a bunch of unbiblical nonsense.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul was speaking generally here about the church when he said "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...". He was not saying that he knew whether or not he would be among those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord. He was just saying those of us who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, which may nor may not include him, would not meet Christ first before those who are asleep (the dead in Christ). They would go to meet the Lord together. That's it. There's no reason to conclude that he was saying he was guaranteeing that he would be among those who are alive and remain unto the coming of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Somebody has been reading their Bible.......

Good luck finding a pretrib rapture in the scriptures I posted, right? Pretribs never use scripture to interpret scripture. They interpret each verse or passage in isolation without considering context and without taking the rest of scripture into account.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Somebody has been reading their Bible.......

He is transposing the LOF onto the virgin parable

The LOF is after the Millennium.
The second coming is on white horses.

S-I has his doctrine... EXTREMELY convoluted.
Way, way "out there"
Amil has its very own belief system.
I am not on the same page with any amil

Conversing with A telephone pole is more profitable than than amil doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

They are given a 'intermediate' clothing = "with God ALL things are Possible"

"When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."
Rev 6:11

Note carefully the martyrs are confined to under the altar.
Later, we see the innumerable number before the throne
Not under the altar.
Note that they were confined until "their number is fulfilled"

Yet another dynamic that ONLY FITS pretrib rapture.
Billions beheaded at the start of the gt.
They were left behind and NOT PROTECTED as postribbers have erroneously and falsely believed.
All believers are killed for not taking the mark.
No postrib rapture at all.
No postrib rapture verses

 

[David in NJ]

Good luck finding a pretrib rapture in the scriptures I posted, right? Pretribs never use scripture to interpret scripture. They interpret each verse or passage in isolation without considering context and without taking the rest of scripture into account.

BINGO

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He is transposing the LOF onto the virgin parable

The LOF is after the Millennium.
The second coming is on white horses.

S-I has his doctrine... EXTREMELY convoluted.
Way, way "out there"
Amil has its very own belief system.
I am not on the same page with any amil

Conversing with A telephone pole is more profitable than than amil doctrine.

You can't refute what I said in post #68, but you are welcome to try. Your insults prove nothing. Try exegeting scripture for once and see how it goes. You seem to be afraid to do that. Why don't you show me how I'm supposedly misinterpreting the passages I quoted? Tell me how those passages are not related to each other. Show me how the ones who will say "Lord, Lord, open to us" at Christ's second coming will somehow be allowed to continue living instead of being cast into the fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Show me something besides your normal babbling for once.

 

[David in NJ]

He is transposing the LOF onto the virgin parable

The LOF is after the Millennium.
The second coming is on white horses.

S-I has his doctrine... EXTREMELY convoluted.
Way, way "out there"
Amil has its very own belief system.
I am not on the same page with any amil

Conversing with A telephone pole is more profitable than than amil doctrine.

Good Morning my brother in Christ

Went up to Lake Ontario for a test run with the boat.

Rivers were flooded and brown/mud so any salmon that came in shot straight up the rivers to spawning grounds undeterred.

Going back up soon - you coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Note carefully the martyrs are confined to under the altar.
Later, we see the innumerable number before the throne
Not under the altar.
Note that they were confined until "their number is fulfilled"

Yet another dynamic that ONLY FITS pretrib rapture.
Billions beheaded at the start of the gt.
They were left behind and NOT PROTECTED as postribbers have erroneously and falsely believed.
All believers are killed for not taking the mark.
No postrib rapture at all.
No postrib rapture verses

This is pure nonsense. Nothing but babbling. No exegesis of scripture to ever be found from you. Your doctrine is based only on assumptions and speculation and not on scripture. Back up these claims with scripture if you want to be taken seriously. Show exactly how you're coming to these conclusions instead of just making all these claims.