When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[The Light]

Nonsense. We have shown that the seventh trumpet is when Christ returns.

It's when He sets His feet on the mount of Olives, so it is one of His returns. He also returns at the 6th seal for the second harvest. He also returns for the 144,000 first fruits. He also returns for the alive that remain. And He also returns for the dead in Christ.

That is the end. It signals several things as occurring at that point including unbelievers all being destroyed and "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". The dead are judged AFTER the thousand years and Satan's little season (Revelation 20:11-15). You have no response for this. You don't accept what it says will happen at the seventh trumpet.

I don't accept what you say, no. I certainly accept what the Word says.

Rev 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

LOL. You have nothing of substance to offer. Absolutely nothing. You just make the text say whatever you want it to say.

Oh boy. You want to talk about LOL. I post the text as proof and then you claim that I provided no exegesis when the text speaks for itself. I don't need to make up a bunch of nonsense to make my doctrine work.

Where does the Word say the 144,000 is the Church?

I have said the rapture is portrayed in Revelation 11:12 and Revelation 14:14-16. Do you deny that? Right after the rapture occurs (Revelation 14:14-16), all unbelievers are killed and that is portrayed in Revelation 14:18-20.

Which has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet.

So, Revelation 14:14-20 is portraying the same event as 1 Thess 4:14-5:3.

Try making a coherent argument for once if you want to be taken seriously.

Try posting a coherent scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's when He sets His feet on the mount of Olives, so it is one of His returns. He also returns at the 6th seal for the second harvest. He also returns for the 144,000 first fruits. He also returns for the alive that remain. And He also returns for the dead in Christ.

Unlike you, I'm going by what the text actually says in relation to the seventh trumpet. You don't want to accept what it says will happen at that point.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Do you agree with John that the seventh trumpet will signal the arrival of "the time of the dead, that they should be judged"? I do. When are the dead judged? Their judgment is written about in Revelation 20:11-15. You somehow have the dead being judged 1,000+ years after the seventh trumpet sounds, thereby making it so that the seventh trumpet announces something that won't even occur for another 1,000+ years? And that is supposed to make any sense?

I don't accept what you say, no. I certainly accept what the Word says.

So do I, but we don't agree on what the Word says.

Rev 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Oh boy. You want to talk about LOL. I post the text as proof and then you claim that I provided no exegesis when the text speaks for itself. I don't need to make up a bunch of nonsense to make my doctrine work.

You have no idea what exegesis is. Quoting scripture alone is not exegesis! Showing the context and showing how it lines up with the rest of scripture is exegesis. You NEVER do that. Such as what I did with Revelation 11:15-18. I showed how it correlates with the timing of Revelation 20:11-15.

Where does the Word say the 144,000 is the Church?

Where did I say it was? I have told you several times that since it says they are firstfruits, I relate them to the believers from the twelve tribes that James wrote to (see James 1,18) and their souls are now in heaven.

Which has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet.


Try posting a coherent scripture.

LOL. All scripture is coherent. It's your interpretations of scripture that are incoherent. You complain about us supposedly not finding the rapture in scripture and then when we show where we see it, you just dismiss it. What a joke! You won't even address the similarities between Revelation 14:14-20 and 1 Thess 4:14-5:3. How can you be taken seriously when you are unwilling to address any points that I'm making?

 

[The Light]

Unlike you, I'm going by what the text actually says in relation to the seventh trumpet. You don't want to accept what it says will happen at that point.

I think you mean that you don't want to accept what Daniel 12 says about MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Armageddon is over and Christ has set up His millennial kingdom on the earth. His feet have obviously touched the Mount of Olives as Zechariah 14 prophesies.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Do you agree with John that the seventh trumpet will signal the arrival of "the time of the dead, that they should be judged"? I do. When are the dead judged? Their judgment is written about in Revelation 20:11-15. You somehow have the dead being judged 1,000+ years after the seventh trumpet sounds, thereby making it so that the seventh trumpet announces something that won't even occur for another 1,000+ years? And that is supposed to make any sense?

You seem to want to ignore this verse.

Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So do I, but we don't agree on what the Word says.

No. I don't agree with you. I agree with the Word.

You have no idea what exegesis is

Sure I do. You quote scripture and then perform exegesis. Simple.

This is an important tool that is utilized by those that cannot accept the written Word of God. God tells you what He means. Some cannot accept it and then they go to making scripture say what they want to make their doctrine work.

An example would be when God tells us the 144,000 are first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel. A little exegesis and whallah, voila, presto chango, hocus pocus those 144,000 are miraculously changed into the Church. Forget the truth that God tells us and make the scripture say whatever you want.

. Quoting scripture alone is not exegesis! Showing the context and showing how it lines up with the rest of scripture is exegesis. You NEVER do that. Such as what I did with Revelation 11:15-18. I showed how it correlates with the timing of Revelation 20:11-15.

The scripture says what it says. When the scripture says we are not appointed to wrath........that's what it means. And yet your doctrine appoints the Church to the wrath of God.

Whallah, voila, presto chango, hocus pocus, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, there is nothing to see here..................and yet.......the great multitude in heaven BEFORE the 7th seal is opened.

LOL. All scripture is coherent. It's your interpretations of scripture that are incoherent. You complain about us supposedly not finding the rapture in scripture and then when we show where we see it, you just dismiss it.

You show the rapture in Revelation 14. Sure I dismiss it. As we can see in Rev 14, the wrath of God is about to begin.
Rev 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

What a joke! You won't even address the similarities between Revelation 14:14-20 and 1 Thess 4:14-5:3. How can you be taken seriously when you are unwilling to address any points that I'm making?

1 Thes 4:14 is talking about the Lord bringing the dead in Christ with Him when He comes for the alive that remained.

1 Thes 5:3 is talking about the Day of the Lord coming as a thief. This happens at the 6th seal and then the 7th seal is opened and the 1 year day of the Lord begins.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think you mean that you don't want to accept what Daniel 12 says about MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I fully accept it. I also accept that the Hebrew word translated as "many" there does NOT mean "many, but not all" as you falsely believe. And I showed examples where it is used to refer to all of something, the number of which is "many" and you just ignore all of that because you want to make Daniel 12:2 say what you want it to say instead of recognizing that Jesus talked about the same thing in John 5:28-29.

You end up having to believe that both saved and lost dead people will be resurrected at the same time on at least two different occasions, which is completely ridiculous.

Armageddon is over and Christ has set up His millennial kingdom on the earth. His feet have obviously touched the Mount of Olives as Zechariah 14 prophesies.

Is 2 Peter 3:10-13 in your Bible?

You think that Zechariah 14 is talking about what will happen when Christ returns.

Zechariah 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

You take this literally and believe it will occur when Christ returns. It says the land described will experience "no more utter destruction". How does that line up with the following exactly?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

How could that land survive the burning up of the earth exactly?

Also, the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night is the day Christ returns, as Paul wrote about as well (1 Thess 5:2-3). These passages do not allow for any mortal survivors of Christ's return. That's why Paul said "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:3). Surely, they can not escape the entire earth being burned up. So, how do you reconcile your interpretation of Zechariah 14 with 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thess 5:2-3? Do you think Peter and Paul were familiar with Zechariah 14? I'm sure they were. And, yet, they still indicated that no unbelievers will survive Christ's return. And we know all believers will be changed to have immortal bodies at that point. So, I'm going to side with Peter and Paul here instead of you and accept their understanding that no mortals will survive Christ's second coming.

You seem to want to ignore this verse.

Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

You seem to want to lie. I ignore nothing. Tell me why the word "zao" is used in reference to those who "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" while the word "anazao" is used to refer to the rest of the dead living again after the thousand years? The word "zao" refer to being alive and living which is why it says "they lived and reigned with Christ". John saw the souls of the dead in Christ there. They live and reign with Christ in heaven having already spiritually had part in the first resurrection, which is Christ's resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). The rest of the dead will be bodily resurrected after the thousand years (and Satan's little season) as will all of the dead in Christ and all will stand before the throne to give an account of themselves (Romans 14:10-12, Matthew 25:31-46, Rev 20:11-15).

Sure I do. You quote scripture and then perform exegesis. Simple.

Why do you never do that then? You quote scripture and then make claims about it without showing exactly how you are interpreting it and why. And you don't show how it agrees with the rest of scripture.

This is an important tool that is utilized by those that cannot accept the written Word of God. God tells you what He means. Some cannot accept it and then they go to making scripture say what they want to make their doctrine work.

An example would be when God tells us the 144,000 are first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel. A little exegesis and whallah, voila, presto chango, hocus pocus those 144,000 are miraculously changed into the Church. Forget the truth that God tells us and make the scripture say whatever you want.

Are you being purposely dense here? I very specifically told you my understanding of who they are and I didn't say that they are the church. Hello? I based it on James 1:1,18 and see them as the first Christians.

The scripture says what it says. When the scripture says we are not appointed to wrath........that's what it means. And yet your doctrine appoints the Church to the wrath of God.

No, it does not as I have told you many times. That is a lie. I can only call it a lie at this point because I have told you many times that my doctrine does not have the church going through any of God's wrath. I will tell you what I believe. You can't tell me what I believe.

Whallah, voila, presto chango, hocus pocus, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, there is nothing to see here..................and yet.......the great multitude in heaven BEFORE the 7th seal is opened.

You act like a little child. You should be embarrassed. Do you believe in soul sleep or something? You don't recognize that there are a great multitude of the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven right now?

You show the rapture in Revelation 14. Sure I dismiss it. As we can see in Rev 14, the wrath of God is about to begin.
Rev 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Are you ignoring Revelation 14:14-16? That passage does not describe God's wrath. It describes believers being gathered from the earth.

1 Thes 4:14 is talking about the Lord bringing the dead in Christ with Him when He comes for the alive that remained.

Not with bodies. That's ridiculous. It's talking about the souls of the dead in Christ being with Him. Their bodies are not resurrected until that time. The souls of the dead in Christ come with Him and then unite with their resurrected, changed bodies. Then, they, along with those who are alive and remain, are caught up TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air. You are trying to make 1 Thess 4:14 say what you want it to say instead of interpreting it in context.

1 Thes 5:3 is talking about the Day of the Lord coming as a thief. This happens at the 6th seal and then the 7th seal is opened and the 1 year day of the Lord begins.

LOL. How can "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" go on for an entire year? Explain that if you want to be taken seriously. If it lasts for 1 year then it could not be referred to as "SUDDEN destruction".

 

[The Light]

I fully accept it. I also accept that the Hebrew word translated as "many" there does NOT mean "many, but not all" as you falsely believe. And I showed examples where it is used to refer to all of something, the number of which is "many" and you just ignore all of that because you want to make Daniel 12:2 say what you want it to say instead of recognizing that Jesus talked about the same thing in John 5:28-29.

You end up having to believe that both saved and lost dead people will be resurrected at the same time on at least two different occasions, which is completely ridiculous.

Daniel 12:1-2 is about the people of Daniel.

There is NO chance that MANY OF THEM means ALL OF THEM. You are grasping at the straw of a doctrine of unbelieving men who thought would not keep His promise to His Chosen.

Is 2 Peter 3:10-13 in your Bible?

You think that Zechariah 14 is talking about what will happen when Christ returns.

Zechariah 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Ah, errrr, ah, yea, ah......................................... yeah.

Zechariah 14
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

You take this literally and believe it will occur when Christ returns. It says the land described will experience "no more utter destruction". How does that line up with the following exactly?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

How could that land survive the burning up of the earth exactly?

This is the 6th seal coming of the Lord. Obviously the great multitude is in heaven, and the unrighteous are on the earth for the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath. Those that flee from Israel after the AOD is set up will be in a place of protection.

Also, the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night is the day Christ returns, as Paul wrote about as well (1 Thess 5:2-3). These passages do not allow for any mortal survivors of Christ's return. That's why Paul said "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:3). Surely, they can not escape the entire earth being burned up. So, how do you reconcile your interpretation of Zechariah 14 with 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thess 5:2-3? Do you think Peter and Paul were familiar with Zechariah 14? I'm sure they were. And, yet, they still indicated that no unbelievers will survive Christ's return. And we know all believers will be changed to have immortal bodies at that point. So, I'm going to side with Peter and Paul here instead of you and accept their understanding that no mortals will survive Christ's second coming.

I have no Idea why you keep claiming this.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

You seem to want to lie.

You and your buddy have a real problem with that word. I'm not the one falsifying the scripture.

Why do you never do that then? You quote scripture and then make claims about it without showing exactly how you are interpreting it and why. And you don't show how it agrees with the rest of scripture.

The scripture can speak for itself. When the Word says we are not appointed to wrath, that's what it means and yet you have the Chruch going through the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath. You are in error.

When the Word says that the 144,000 first fruits are of the 12 tribes of Israel, that's what the Word means. I don't need anyone to start making up a bunch of nonsense and telling me it's the Church because they are listening to someone's interpretation when the scripture does not need to be interpreted.

 

[The Light]

No, it does not as I have told you many times. That is a lie. I can only call it a lie at this point because I have told you many times that my doctrine does not have the church going through any of God's wrath. I will tell you what I believe. You can't tell me what I believe.

If you have the Church on earth during the 7th seal, you have the Church going through the wrath of God. Make any claim you want; I am looking at the facts.

You act like a little child. You should be embarrassed. Do you believe in soul sleep or something? You don't recognize that there are a great multitude of the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven right now?

I have never been one to put up with a bunch of nonsense.

Are you ignoring Revelation 14:14-16? That passage does not describe God's wrath. It describes believers being gathered from the earth.

You kind of want to skip that second angel don't ya.

Revelation 14
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Not with bodies. That's ridiculous. It's talking about the souls of the dead in Christ being with Him. Their bodies are not resurrected until that time. The souls of the dead in Christ come with Him and then unite with their resurrected, changed bodies. Then, they, along with those who are alive and remain, are caught up TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air. You are trying to make 1 Thess 4:14 say what you want it to say instead of interpreting it in context.

The dead in Christ rise first.....................the alive remain. Maybe I could get Douggg to draw you a chart.

LOL. How can "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" go on for an entire year? Explain that if you want to be taken seriously. If it lasts for 1 year then it could not be referred to as "SUDDEN destruction".

Can you figure this out or can you provide some exegesis that proves that this does not mean what it says so your doctrine can be right.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Daniel 12:1-2 is about the people of Daniel.

There is NO chance that MANY OF THEM means ALL OF THEM. You are grasping at the straw of a doctrine of unbelieving men who thought would not keep His promise to His Chosen.

Daniel 12:2 is about the resurrection of the dead in general and not just Daniel's people. There is no reason to see Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 as different events. Believing that causes you to conclude that there will be two separate events where both saved and lost people will be resurrected. How do you reconcile that with the rest of scripture?

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Why would the following ever no longer be true?

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It makes no sense to believe that one day God would change His mind and decide that "they that worship him" no longer "must worship him in spirit and in truth.". Your understanding of Zechariah 14 contradicts what Jesus, Paul and Peter said would happen when Christ returns which is that He will destroy all of His enemies and they will experience "sudden destruction" by fire from which "they shall not escape" just as no one escaped the flood in Noah's day or the fire that came down on Sodom in Lot's day.

Also, keeping the feast of tabernacles involves animal sacrifices and offerings. Why would that be reinstated after Jesus made His "once for all" sacrifice that established the new covenant while making the old covenant and its animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete? That makes no sense! Your doctrine causes things to REGRESS after the incredible PROGRESS made by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ! You don't even think about these things!

The scripture can speak for itself. When the Word says we are not appointed to wrath, that's what it means and yet you have the Chruch going through the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath. You are in error.

I don't have a single member of the church being affected by God's wrath in my doctrine. Your lack of trust in God to protect His own while they are on the earth says a lot about you. The only time when God will need to take us off of the earth is when Jesus returns and sends fire down upon the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12).

When the Word says that the 144,000 first fruits are of the 12 tribes of Israel, that's what the Word means. I don't need anyone to start making up a bunch of nonsense and telling me it's the Church because they are listening to someone's interpretation when the scripture does not need to be interpreted.

You need to get your memory checked. Something is seriously wrong with it. I have told you several times that I don't interpret it that way and see them as being the first believers from the 12 tribes of Israel that James wrote to (see James 1:1, 18).

 

[doctrox]

From the OP:

So when is the resurrection of the dead, and the living in Christ being caught up to the Lord?

If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you have the Church on earth during the 7th seal, you have the Church going through the wrath of God. Make any claim you want; I am looking at the facts.

You don't know the difference between facts and opinions. I do NOT have the church on earth during the 7th seal. The reason there is silence in heaven for half an hour at the 7th seal is because no one is there. Jesus will have descended at that point with the souls of the dead in Christ who will unite with their changed bodies and then be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air. He will then proceed to take vengeance on all of His enemies on the earth by burning it up with fire (2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

I have never been one to put up with a bunch of nonsense.

Then you should have no problem putting up with me because I don't waste time with nonsense. You're fortunate that you don't have to put up with yourself because you wouldn't put up with yourself for very long, apparently.

You kind of want to skip that second angel don't ya.

Revelation 14
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The dead in Christ rise first.....................the alive remain. Maybe I could get Douggg to draw you a chart.

Again, no exegesis from you. You think just quoting scripture and making vague comments is enough. I could quote the same scripture and say that it refutes your view. Which it does. But, it's pointless to do that without showing how and explaining why. I have no idea what you're talking about here. I don't want to skip that. Why would I? It supports my view. I told you more than once that I see Revelation 14:14-20 as describing the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3. So, why would I want to skip this?

Can you figure this out or can you provide some exegesis that proves that this does not mean what it says so your doctrine can be right.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

These are talking about the second coming of Christ, as is Revelation 14:14-20. The book is full of recapitulations that look at the same events from different angles. What is your point here? Just quoting scripture without any commentary as to what exactly you think the scripture is saying is pointless! Stop being lazy and explain what your point is. We could just quote scripture back and forth and claim that it supports our own view and refutes the other's view, but doing NOTHING to show how and explain why it does is absolutely pointless and proves nothing.

This was your response when I questioned you about how the day of the Lord could last for 1 year. Hello? Where does that text indicate such a thing? You ignore that the day of the Lord involves SUDDEN destruction from which "they shall not escape". There's nothing sudden about something that takes a whole year to complete.

 

[WPM]

From the OP:

If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)

I was agreeing with you up till your last two paragraphs. This is where Premillennialist get it all wrong. This is where their argument goes pear-shaped. You force a meaning upon Revelation 20 that carries no corroboration elsewhere in Scripture.

Your position denies that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Amils believe in corroboration. Multiple Scripture proves that the first resurrection of Jesus occurred 2000 years ago.

What is more, mankind is all raised together to be judged when Jesus comes (Daniel 12:1-3, Matthew 12:41-42, Luke 11:31, John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15 and Revelation 20:13) for judgment.

 

[The Light]

Daniel 12:2 is about the resurrection of the dead in general and not just Daniel's people. There is no reason to see Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 as different events. Believing that causes you to conclude that there will be two separate events where both saved and lost people will be resurrected. How do you reconcile that with the rest of scripture?

Plain and simple, you don't understand what you are reading. Daniel 12:2 is about the people of Daniel. When MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake it is talking about the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. That is when the Lord comes and sends His angels to gather elect from heaven and earth. How could you possibly understand this when you think that the 144,000 first fruits of this harvest is the Church and not those of the 12 tribes. That is why the righteous that are harvested are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

You will never understand these things because you believe what you have been taught. And what you have been taught does not agree with the Word of God.

Why would the following ever no longer be true?

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It makes no sense to believe that one day God would change His mind and decide that "they that worship him" no longer "must worship him in spirit and in truth.". Your understanding of Zechariah 14 contradicts what Jesus, Paul and Peter said would happen when Christ returns which is that He will destroy all of His enemies and they will experience "sudden destruction" by fire from which "they shall not escape" just as no one escaped the flood in Noah's day or the fire that came down on Sodom in Lot's day.

Also, keeping the feast of tabernacles involves animal sacrifices and offerings. Why would that be reinstated after Jesus made His "once for all" sacrifice that established the new covenant while making the old covenant and its animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete? That makes no sense! Your doctrine causes things to REGRESS after the incredible PROGRESS made by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ! You don't even think about these things!

Here is what the Word of God says.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Why do you question what is written? It's clear enough.

I don't have a single member of the church being affected by God's wrath in my doctrine. Your lack of trust in God to protect His own while they are on the earth says a lot about you. The only time when God will need to take us off of the earth is when Jesus returns and sends fire down upon the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12).

You do have the Church on earth during the 7th seal. The Church is not appointed to wrath.

You need to get your memory checked. Something is seriously wrong with it. I have told you several times that I don't interpret it that way and see them as being the first believers from the 12 tribes of Israel that James wrote to (see James 1:1, 18).

The fact you don't interpret scripture as it is written, does not change the facts.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest, as the fig tree has two harvests. However, they went to Baalpeor. They would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles become the first harvest. You cannot have first fruits for the second harvest until the first harvest has occurred. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes after the rapture of the Church takes place.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Plain and simple, you don't understand what you are reading.

Easy to say, of course. But, you can't prove it at all as you've shown. Your arguments are very weak. I don't feel like you understand even one word of what you are reading.

Daniel 12:2 is about the people of Daniel. When MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake it is talking about the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. That is when the Lord comes and sends His angels to gather elect from heaven and earth. How could you possibly understand this when you think that the 144,000 first fruits of this harvest is the Church and not those of the 12 tribes. That is why the righteous that are harvested are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

You will never understand these things because you believe what you have been taught. And what you have been taught does not agree with the Word of God.

I haven't been taught anything about end times doctrine. You have no idea of what you're talking about. What I believe is from my own studies. You don't allow Jesus to clarify Daniel 12:2 for you. It's ludicrous to think that John 5:28-29 is talking about some other resurrection event of both saved and lost people than what Daniel 12:2 is about.

Here is what the Word of God says.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Why do you question what is written? It's clear enough.

You won't even bother addressing my arguments. That's weak and cowardly on your part.

Is this not the Word of God:

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Show me where Jesus said that what He said here would no longer be true at some point in the future.

You do have the Church on earth during the 7th seal. The Church is not appointed to wrath.

Why are you trying to tell me what I believe? That's ridiculous! You can't tell me what I believe while misrepresenting what I believe. That's a lie. Why would you want to lie about what I believe? I will tell you what I believe again. I do NOT have the church on earth during the 7th seal I have the rapture occurring at that time. After we are caught up then "sudden destruction" will come upon all of Christ's enemies from which "they shall not escape". You can read what will happen in 1 Thess 4:14-5:3.

The fact you don't interpret scripture as it is written, does not change the facts.

LOL. You mean the way you interpret John 5:28-29 as it is written? As written, Jesus said that the hour is coming when ALL of the dead will be resurrected in that hour. Not some resurrected here, some resurrected there and some resurrected some other time. All in the same hour. You do not interpret John 5:28-29 as it is written.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest, as the fig tree has two harvests. However, they went to Baalpeor. They would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles become the first harvest. You cannot have first fruits for the second harvest until the first harvest has occurred. That is why there share 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes after the rapture of the Church takes place.

All you have to offer is a word salad. You make no sense.

 

[The Light]

From the OP:

If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

Which resurrection are you referring to?

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy.

This is not true. I think you have a preconceived notion about the rapture.

If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming

There will be a gathering at the second coming. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. It is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church will be gathered from heaven where they will be after the rapture of the Church before the tribulation of those days.

-- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

This verse proves you are in error as there will be a rapture that does not include just those that are resurrected.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

All that are in the graves..........at this time...........shall come forth. However, the scripture clearly says that MANY of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised at the end of the great tribulation. That occurs at the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14)

You are assuming that there is only one harvest.

Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”

There is a resurrection for the just and a resurrection for the unjust.

Daniel 12
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting
contempt.

At the second coming, many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Note............not all of them that sleep in the dust of the earth at this time shall be raised.

(Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Nice. Did you not see that MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth are raised.............and not all of them.

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4) In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

There is a 1st resurrection for the righteous and a second resurrection for the unrighteous. But there is obviously more that one of each as we can see in Daniel 12

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)

I think there is a little more to it than that. First you need to deal with Daniel 12 which shows MANY of those that sleep in the ground shall be raised some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[The Light]

Easy to say, of course. But, you can't prove it at all as you've shown. Your arguments are very weak. I don't feel like you understand even one word of what you are reading.

It's simple. You don't believe what is written and you have to perform some exegesis so your doctrine will work.

I haven't been taught anything about end times doctrine. You have no idea of what you're talking about. What I believe is from my own studies. You don't allow Jesus to clarify Daniel 12:2 for you. It's ludicrous to think that John 5:28-29 is talking about some other resurrection event of both saved and lost people than what Daniel 12:2 is about.


You won't even bother addressing my arguments. That's weak and cowardly on your part.

I addressed your arguments with the Word. I didn't write those verses.

When the name calling comes out that's just proof you can't address the scriptures.

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Show me where Jesus said that what He said here would no longer be true at some point in the future.

Straw man. Show me in these verses where those that are left of the nations which come against Jerusalem shall not go up and worship the King, the Lord of hosts and keep the feast of Tabernacles.

Zech 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

The reason you cannot comprehend these things is because you have a preconceived idea, and you don't think that will be a 1000 reign of Christ on the earth.

Why are you trying to tell me what I believe? That's ridiculous! You can't tell me what I believe while misrepresenting what I believe. That's a lie. Why would you want to lie about what I believe? I will tell you what I believe again. I do NOT have the church on earth during the 7th seal I have the rapture occurring at that time. After we are caught up then "sudden destruction" will come upon all of Christ's enemies from which "they shall not escape". You can read what will happen in 1 Thess 4:14-5:3.

You do have the Church on earth during the 7th seal. If not, what happened to them? Where is the Church during those trumpets?

LOL. You mean the way you interpret John 5:28-29 as it is written? As written, Jesus said that the hour is coming when ALL of the dead will be resurrected in that hour. Not some resurrected here, some resurrected there and some resurrected some other time. All in the same hour. You do not interpret John 5:28-29 as it is written.


All you have to offer is a word salad. You make no sense.

All that remain in the ground will be resurrected in that hour. Many of them that sleep in the ground will be raised before that hour. Simple enough.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's simple. You don't believe what is written and you have to perform some exegesis so your doctrine will work.

LOL. You don't even know what exegesis is. Which isn't surprising since you never do it. You seem to think that the word exegesis and manipulation are synonyms but that's not the case. To exegete scripture is simply to look at it closely and carefully while examining the context while at the same time being careful not to interpret any verse or passage in such a way that contradicts other scripture. I never see you do this. You interpret each verse or passage in isolation from the rest of scripture, you don't look carefully at context and you don't seem to even care if you interpret any given verse or passage in such a way that contradicts other scripture. Your method of interpretation is reckless.

I addressed your arguments with the Word. I didn't write those verses.

But, you don't explain how exactly those scriptures support your view. You just say they do and expect people to take your word for it.

When the name calling comes out that's just proof you can't address the scriptures.

The fact that you make no effort to address the scriptures is proof that you can't address the scriptures.

Straw man. Show me in these verses where those that are left of the nations which come against Jerusalem shall not go up and worship the King, the Lord of hosts and keep the feast of Tabernacles.

Zech 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

The reason you cannot comprehend these things is because you have a preconceived idea, and you don't think that will be a 1000 reign of Christ on the earth.

You think trying to ensure that we don't interpret that passage in such a way that contradicts another passage of scripture is a straw man argument? That says it all about your approach to scripture. You make every verse and passage say whatever you want it to say with no regard as to whether or not you are contradicting other scripture.

How interesting that you want to ignore John 4:19-22 as if the passage from Zechariah 14 somehow trumps it and makes it meaningless. That is not how to treat scripture? How do you reconcile the two passages together? What evidence do you have to show that what Jesus said in John 4:19-22 will one day no longer be true? Why would it no longer be true? Why did He make such a major change in how people approach and worship God only to cange it back to how it used to be when He comes? That's regression, not progression. The new way (new covenant), is better than the old way (old covenant) according to Hebrews 8:6-7. Why regress to how it was in old covenant times after the progress Jesus made by shedding His blood and establishing the new covenant?

To interpret Zechariah 14:16-17 literally with a future fulfillment when Christ returns means that animal sacrifices would be reinstated because animal sacrifices are required in order to keep the feast of tabernacles. Why would animal sacrifices be reinstated when Jesus made His "once for all" sacrifice to make the old covenant and its animal sacrifices obsolete long ago? Why do you think God would want things to regress back to the inferior old covenant system again? You can't just ignore all of this. You need to reconcile this with your doctrine.

You do have the Church on earth during the 7th seal. If not, what happened to them? Where is the Church during those trumpets?

Are you being purposely dense? Are you playing a game with me here? I have told you several times now that I believe His second coming is at hand at the sixth seal, so the reason that heaven is empty at the seventh seal is because no one is there. Jesus will have descended from heaven at that point with His angels and the souls of the dead in Christ. Now, put this in your memory somewhere so that you stop falsely claiming that I have the church on the earth during the 7th seal. I do not.

All that remain in the ground will be resurrected in that hour. Many of them that sleep in the ground will be raised before that hour. Simple enough.

Ridiculous enough you mean. That made no sense. Jesus did not say the hour is coming when all of the dead who haven't yet been resurrected will be resurrected. You are making John 5:28-29 say what you want it to say. Scripture does not teach that saved and lost dead people will be resurrected on two different occasions. When do you think John 5:28-29 will be fulfilled, anyway? I don't recall if you ever mentioned that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This verse proves you are in error as there will be a rapture that does not include just those that are resurrected.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What are you talking about? It says there that those who are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds. Who are THEM that those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with except for the resurrected dead in Christ who are mentioned in the previous verse that you conveniently left out?

 

[The Light]

LOL. You don't even know what exegesis is. Which isn't surprising since you never do it. You seem to think that the word exegesis and manipulation are synonyms but that's not the case. To exegete scripture is simply to look at it closely and carefully while examining the context while at the same time being careful not to interpret any verse or passage in such a way that contradicts other scripture. I never see you do this. You interpret each verse or passage in isolation from the rest of scripture, you don't look carefully at context and you don't seem to even care if you interpret any given verse or passage in such a way that contradicts other scripture. Your method of interpretation is reckless.



But, you don't explain how exactly those scriptures support your view. You just say they do and expect people to take your word for it.


The fact that you make no effort to address the scriptures is proof that you can't address the scriptures.


You think trying to ensure that we don't interpret that passage in such a way that contradicts another passage of scripture is a straw man argument? That says it all about your approach to scripture. You make every verse and passage say whatever you want it to say with no regard as to whether or not you are contradicting other scripture.

You haven't been paying attention. I have shown how Daniel 12:2 proves that many of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised. This shows there is more than one resurrection.

How interesting that you want to ignore John 4:19-22 as if the passage from Zechariah 14 somehow trumps it and makes it meaningless. That is not how to treat scripture? How do you reconcile the two passages together? What evidence do you have to show that what Jesus said in John 4:19-22 will one day no longer be true? Why would it no longer be true? Why did He make such a major change in how people approach and worship God only to cange it back to how it used to be when He comes? That's regression, not progression. The new way (new covenant), is better than the old way (old covenant) according to Hebrews 8:6-7. Why regress to how it was in old covenant times after the progress Jesus made by shedding His blood and establishing the new covenant?

To interpret Zechariah 14:16-17 literally with a future fulfillment when Christ returns means that animal sacrifices would be reinstated because animal sacrifices are required in order to keep the feast of tabernacles. Why would animal sacrifices be reinstated when Jesus made His "once for all" sacrifice to make the old covenant and its animal sacrifices obsolete long ago? Why do you think God would want things to regress back to the inferior old covenant system again? You can't just ignore all of this. You need to reconcile this with your doctrine.

I just quoted the scripture that tell what will happen in the future according to the Word of God. What does and does not happen regarding animal sacrifice is not in my control or concern. The Word says what the Word says.

Are you being purposely dense? Are you playing a game with me here? I have told you several times now that I believe His second coming is at hand at the sixth seal, so the reason that heaven is empty at the seventh seal is because no one is there. Jesus will have descended from heaven at that point with His angels and the souls of the dead in Christ. Now, put this in your memory somewhere so that you stop falsely claiming that I have the church on the earth during the 7th seal. I do not.

It magic..........there is no rapture until the seventh trumpet..............but somehow the Church is not on earth during the 1st trumpets. Your story has lots of hole. It's a having your cake and eating it too situation.

Ridiculous enough you mean. That made no sense. Jesus did not say the hour is coming when all of the dead who haven't yet been resurrected will be resurrected. You are making John 5:28-29 say what you want it to say. Scripture does not teach that saved and lost dead people will be resurrected on two different occasions. When do you think John 5:28-29 will be fulfilled, anyway? I don't recall if you ever mentioned that.

I don';t think you will ever understand Daniel 12:1-2

 

[doctrox]

The Church will be gathered from heaven where they will be after the rapture of the Church before the tribulation of those days.

and

...MANY [this] and MANY [that]...

and

But there is obviously more that one [resurrection] of each...

Rather, what is "obvious" are the numerous falsehoods floundering about in your sinking rapture vessel.

I'll leave you to your much beloved house of cards.

 

[jeffweeder]

This verse proves you are in error as there will be a rapture that does not include just those that are resurrected.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Apostle Paul would be one of the dead in Christ at his coming, You agree?

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That is all those who came to Faith at his coming. The living and the dead in Christ.
Look what Paul said in his second letter regarding ALL who have believed the Gospel...,


4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure. 5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you,

7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire,


What else does the Lord do when he comes for those who belong to him?

8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


Dealing out full and complete vengeance = eternal punishment on those who reject the Gospel when he comes for his own.
This happens at the GWT of course.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You haven't been paying attention. I have shown how Daniel 12:2 proves that many of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised. This shows there is more than one resurrection.

You have shown nothing except that you are willing to interpret one passage of scripture in such a way that contradicts other passages of scripture. I'm not willing to do that.

I just quoted the scripture that tell what will happen in the future according to the Word of God. What does and does not happen regarding animal sacrifice is not in my control or concern. The Word says what the Word says.

You have no concern that your interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-17 contradicts John 4:19-22 and Hebrews 8-10. That says it all about you. You have no interest in making sure your interpretation of any given verse or passage doesn't contradict any other verse or passage in scripture.

It magic..........there is no rapture until the seventh trumpet..............but somehow the Church is not on earth during the 1st trumpets. Your story has lots of hole. It's a having your cake and eating it too situation.

You do nothing but make claims without backing them up. It's impossible to take you seriously.

I don';t think you will ever understand Daniel 12:1-2

I understand it just fine. And I understand that scripture never teaches that both saved and lost people will be resurrected two different times in the future. That is ludicrous.