The Rapture Cover-up

[IndianaRob]

I agree. The OP is not taking into consideration "these all died" does not apply to Enoch any more than "not having received the promises" since he's very much received the promise of eternal life.

I did take it into consideration and here’s why what you say is not true.

The promise was not HEAVEN, the promise was HEAVENLY JERUSALEM . All of them including Enoch DIED without entering into heavenly Jerusalem because heavenly Jerusalem didn’t come until Christ.

Does this make sense?

 

[IndianaRob]

Enoch:
>now up in heaven
>enjoying the privilege of heavenly citizenship
>enjoying the company of perfect heavenly beings
>enjoying the peace and tranquility of the divine glory
>enjoying the sweet water of the River of Life and the delicious fruit from the Tree of Life
>enjoying being "absent from the body and present with the Lord" for all eternity...

...is still considered one "not having received the promises"?

All I'm saying is that if a blind man can see Enoch has absolutely received just about every one of God's promises He has to offer, do you think "these all died" could be as inapplicable to Enoch as "not having received the promises"?

Read the entire chapter and you will see that the promise that they all died without receiving was HEAVENLY JERUSALEM not heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

Let me see if I can clarify this. Paul teaches a harpazo, a catching away to heaven of each and every believer as it’s time to leave this world and go to heaven.

No.

The surviving Christians from the trib will be taken to the clouds of the Earth to meet Jesus at the second coming, not "heaven".

The rapture heresy hijacks that idea and claims there will be a corporate snatching away at the end of time.

The only heresy is pre and mid trib rapture theories. The true rapture is post trib like what Paul taught.

 

[Phoneman777]

I did take it into consideration and here’s why what you say is not true.

The promise was not HEAVEN, the promise was HEAVENLY JERUSALEM . All of them including Enoch DIED without entering into heavenly Jerusalem because heavenly Jerusalem didn’t come until Christ.

Does this make sense?

So, two reasons why I'm right:

1. Pretty sure Hebrews 11 mentions "promises" (plural) which includes eternal life, presence of the Lord, River of Life, Tree of Life, etc.

2. Dispensationalism is a lie. Heavenly Jerusalem already existed in Enoch's day - it's where God's throne is, the Heavenly Sanctuary after which the OT sanctuary was patterned, the Tree of Life, the River of Life, Paradise, etc.

 

[Phoneman777]

Read the entire chapter and you will see that the promise that they all died without receiving was HEAVENLY JERUSALEM not heaven.

Friend, it's "promises" (plural), not "promise" (singular). New Jerusalem is one of many promises. "They will mount up wings as eagles" and "run and not be weary" are just two. (+ 1 point)

Is Enoch subject to weariness or gravity? Of course not. (+ 1 point)

"not see" is as easily defined as "not experience" as "not look upon". (0 points: draw)

So, two points for me and zero for you tips the scales in favor of Enoch not dying because he received promises others didn't and "not see death" can mean "not experience death".

I agree the (secret) rapture is a myth, but because Paul says we go up at the same time Jesus is coming down and bringing a fiery hammer of anger with Him at the Second Coming.

 

[MA2444]

I agree the (secret) rapture is a myth, but because Paul says we go up at the same time Jesus is coming down and bringing a fiery hammer of anger with Him at the Second Coming.

That doesnt even make sense though.

We meet Jesus on the fly? Come on honey, I got some butt to kick and then we'll go to the reception? Uhhh, no.

The proof is in the details. I think if post tribbers knew the language better and customs back then then it would be more clear. But those of us born Western wasnt raised with the Language over there, so we dont know these things right off. We have to dig and study about it and so many times when I read a passage I'll open up BlueLetter Bible.org and go through each word in the passage and there is always different ways certain words are defined and many times it is the innocuous words used that can mean different things and when you insert different uses of the word into the (thought) it can change the meaning of the passage rather dramatically! The proof is always in the details. You have to care enough about finding the truth to take this time.

And what's up with you posttribbers saying Rapture isnt in the Bible at all? It sure is!

You & I read a Translation into English of the text. Go pick up the Latin Vulgate and there it is...Rapture. But for the English version the term Harpazo was chosen for us. But it is there.

 

[IndianaRob]

So, two reasons why I'm right:

1. Pretty sure Hebrews 11 mentions "promises" (plural) which includes eternal life, presence of the Lord, River of Life, Tree of Life, etc.

2. Dispensationalism is a lie. Heavenly Jerusalem already existed in Enoch's day - it's where God's throne is, the Heavenly Sanctuary after which the OT sanctuary was patterned, the Tree of Life, the River of Life, Paradise, etc.

This Heavenly Jerusalem, it is a spiritual city where believers in Christ live. This city was not available to the Old Testament believers. Christ did away with earthly Jerusalem and established heavenly Jerusalem.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

[rebuilder 454]

People please stop spreading the rapture heresy.

The rapture is a lie and it’s covering up one of the most important and uplifting doctrines in the Bible. That doctrine is BELIEVERS IN CHRIST NEVER DIE.

Enoch is the model for how all believers leave this world. ENOCH DIED but he did not SEE his death because he was taken to heaven and then his body fell to the ground DEAD.

We’re told in Hebrews that Enoch did not SEE death.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Then a few verses later we are told that ENOCH DIED along with all the other saints mentioned in Hebrews 11.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

We should comfort one another with these words not turn those words into a lie.

Please stop replacing the pretrib rapture via omission of the pretrib rapture verses.
You have no understanding of the groom gathering the bride.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No.

The surviving Christians from the trib will be taken to the clouds of the Earth to meet Jesus at the second coming, not "heaven".




The only heresy is pre and mid trib rapture theories. The true rapture is post trib like what Paul taught.

There are no postrib rapture verses

All the rapture verses are NOT IN THE SETTING that you need them to be.

They are in the OPPOSITE setting.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That doesnt even make sense though.

We meet Jesus on the fly? Come on honey, I got some butt to kick and then we'll go to the reception? Uhhh, no.

The proof is in the details. I think if post tribbers knew the language better and customs back then then it would be more clear. But those of us born Western wasnt raised with the Language over there, so we dont know these things right off. We have to dig and study about it and so many times when I read a passage I'll open up BlueLetter Bible.org and go through each word in the passage and there is always different ways certain words are defined and many times it is the innocuous words used that can mean different things and when you insert different uses of the word into the (thought) it can change the meaning of the passage rather dramatically! The proof is always in the details. You have to care enough about finding the truth to take this time.

And what's up with you posttribbers saying Rapture isnt in the Bible at all? It sure is!

You & I read a Translation into English of the text. Go pick up the Latin Vulgate and there it is...Rapture. But for the English version the term Harpazo was chosen for us. But it is there.

Not only that, but the rapture verses are all pretrib
Rev 14:14 only fits a pretrib rapture.
Mat 24:38 only fits a pretrib rapture
Rev 19 only fits a pretrib rapture
Acts 1 ( like manner) only fits pretrib rapture
Lots gathering only fits pretrib rapture.
"One taken/left" only fits pretrib rapture.
Mat 25 virgin parable only fits pretrib rapture
The AC killing all refusing the mark only fits pretrib rapture.
Rev 14:1 has saints in heaven during the trib.
As does Rev 14:14.
So 1 thes 4 has already happened at that point. ( the dead in christ raised FIRST) ..Unless you are a postribber changing up the bible.

 

[IndianaRob]

Please stop replacing the pretrib rapture via omission of the pretrib rapture verses.
You have no understanding of the groom gathering the bride.

Tell me about the gathering of the bride.

 

[Phoneman777]

That doesnt even make sense though.

We meet Jesus on the fly? Come on honey, I got some butt to kick and then we'll go to the reception? Uhhh, no.

Sure it does, for Jesus Himself says at we're "caught up" (rapture) at the same time the wicked are running to the rocks and mountains and dropping dead "at the brightness of His coming". Didn't Moses clarify to us that nobody can look upon God's glory while clothed in this mortal body and survive? The righteous are "changed" at the last trump while the wicked are "charred" by the intolerable glory of Jesus.

I think if post tribbers knew the language better and customs back then then it would be more clear.

I agree. For some reason, pretribbers think "apostasia" doesn't mean "apostasy" and therefore don't consider the papal apostasy which rose up to convince everyone that "raptura" refers to a "catching away of the saints from earth" when Jesus sneaks into town and sneaks out with the saints.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Tell me about the gathering of the bride.

Mat 25 the groom gathers the bride in the virgins parable.
Rev 19 the bride has become the wife.
The last supper dialog is the same dialogue as the Jewish betrothal.
In the book of Ruth the gentile bride , Ruth, is in the covenant with Boaz who was the kinsman redeemer.
Jesus told the Pharisees when asked about fasting that the bride would not fast while the bridegroom is with them but when the bridegroom is taken away then the bride will fast.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.

 

[Phoneman777]

This Heavenly Jerusalem, it is a spiritual city where believers in Christ live.

The various names in Scripture for God means Christianity is polytheistic - right?
Or, maybe the various names are used to describe different aspects of the one God?

In the same way, "city of God" aka "heavenly Jerusalem" aka "paradise" aka "heaven" aka Jerusalem which is above" - are all different names describing the glorious kingdom. God is going to transport that same kingdom from where it's been for eternity past to Earth and honor our little planet as the new capital of the universe.

This city was not available to the Old Testament believers. Christ did away with earthly Jerusalem and established heavenly Jerusalem.

The OT saints are sleeping, awaiting the resurrection, where Jesus will take us back to the kingdom of God, and after the 1,000 years of earthly desolation, will transport that same city to a new cleaved valley and, after tying up loose ends with the resurrection of the wicked and the Lake of Fire in which they pass out of existence, He will remake the New Heaven and New Earth as we all watch from inside New Jerusalem.

 

[IndianaRob]

Mat 25 the groom gathers the bride in the virgins parable.
Rev 19 the bride has become the wife.
The last supper dialog is the same dialogue as the Jewish betrothal.
In the book of Ruth the gentile bride , Ruth, is in the covenant with Boaz who was the kinsman redeemer.
Jesus told the Pharisees when asked about fasting that the bride would not fast while the bridegroom is with them but when the bridegroom is taken away then the bride will fast.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.

Do you agree that the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 25 is the kingdom of heaven that is “within” us?

Luke 17:21 (KJV): “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

 

[IndianaRob]

The various names in Scripture for God means Christianity is polytheistic - right?
Or, maybe the various names are used to describe different aspects of the one God?

In the same way, "city of God" aka "heavenly Jerusalem" aka "paradise" aka "heaven" aka Jerusalem which is above" - are all different names describing the glorious kingdom. God is going to transport that same kingdom from where it's been for eternity past to Earth and honor our little planet as the new capital of the universe.

The OT saints are sleeping, awaiting the resurrection, where Jesus will take us back to the kingdom of God, and after the 1,000 years of earthly desolation, will transport that same city to a new cleaved valley and, after tying up loose ends with the resurrection of the wicked and the Lake of Fire in which they pass out of existence, He will remake the New Heaven and New Earth as we all watch from inside New Jerusalem.

What was the “better thing” that God provided to us that was not available to the OT saints?

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[MA2444]

Sure it does, for Jesus Himself says at we're "caught up" (rapture) at the same time the wicked are running to the rocks and mountains and dropping dead "at the brightness of His coming". Didn't Moses clarify to us that nobody can look upon God's glory while clothed in this mortal body and survive? The righteous are "changed" at the last trump while the wicked are "charred" by the intolerable glory of Jesus.

Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you...if it says we rapture up into the air and then come right back down again with Jesus...I cant find that in my bible.
Or do they mean he goes to prepare a place for us to do battle? (Lol!)
It in no way has the ring of truth to it that we go up into the air and right back down again.

If that were true, wouldnt there be a scripture saying so?

Yeah, I've heard all sorts of testimonies where people are having an encounter with the Lord and sometimes say they collapse. Other times people go to their knees. And yet other people say they stand and talk with Jesus without collapsing. And I think this might have something to do with relationship...some people are closer to the Lord than others and perhaps that closeness to the Lord is what gives those people the capacity to stand before the Lord?

One testimony I heard a lady was taken up and she was with an Angel and they went to what appeared to be an orchard. The Angel instructed her to go get a piece of fruit and eat it, for it will strengthen you to be able to stand in front of the Lord. That what she said!

You know how the scripture says your cup will runneth over? I believe that but I think it's possible that some have thimble size cups and others have buckets and so forth so that prolly makes a difference to the person. So some may have a greater capacity than others to endure the glory of God! ?? Maybe.

 

[Phoneman777]

What was the “better thing” that God provided to us that was not available to the OT saints?

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The same thing that's been "better" than this sinful world all along: the kingdom of heaven

 

[IndianaRob]

The same thing that's been "better" than this sinful world all along: the kingdom of heaven

Yes, the kingdom of heaven inside is, not heaven where God is.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you...if it says we rapture up into the air and then come right back down again with Jesus...I cant find that in my bible.

You can't because that's not in the Bible.

We're "caught up" to Jesus and - as His bride - we go back to His Father's house the same way an ancient Semitic bridegroom would go prepare a marriage chamber at his father's house before returning for his bride. He'd never stay at her father's house - he'd always return with her to his father's house.

You know how the scripture says your cup will runneth over? I believe that but I think it's possible that some have thimble size cups and others have buckets and so forth so that prolly makes a difference to the person. So some may have a greater capacity than others to endure the glory of God! ?? Maybe.

You sound like you have a true reverence for God that is sorely lacking today. People place things on top Bibles, dress casual to preach a sermon because it's "cool" but will dress to the nines when at a mere wedding or to see some "important" person. I like that.