The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[IndianaRob]

You do realize that no saint can be in a glorified immortal body until the last trumpet sounds first, right?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


This presents a major problem for Pretribbers who think they are bodily snatched up to heaven before great tribulation begins. This would mean Pretribbers are being transported to heaven while still in mortal bodies, thus when they get to heaven they are dwelling there still in mortal bodies since they couldn't possibly already be in possession of immortal bodies if that can't even happen until the last trump sounds first.

Are Pretribbers going to move the goalpost here? That 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is not meaning after great tribulation after all but is meaning prior to great tribulation?

You then think it is reasonable that the church is transported to heaven while still in a mortal body state, and that they then dwell in heaven in a mortal body state until great tribulation is past? It's one thing to have souls dwelling in heaven without bodies. But whoever heard of anyone dwelling in heaven in a literal mortal body, meaning in the exact same body they had when they were allegedly snatched up to heaven prior to great tribulation?

What do you think happens to a believer when we die?

 

[Davidpt]

What do you think happens to a believer when we die?

Their body stays behind in the ground , assuming they are buried and not cremated, yet that is beside the point, but that their soul ascends to heaven and they rest in heaven until it is time for the last trump. God then brings them with Him, thus the dead in Christ rise first. Per this scenario it makes no sense that if they are already in heaven to begin with, as to why God brings them with Him to then do a u-turn moments later and take them back to where they already were to begin with?

It's even more bizarre per Pretrib since they couldn't possibly be obtaining immortal bodies at this point if the last trump can't happen until after great tribulation. You then have God bringing them with Him in order to accomplish exactly zero if they then do a u-turn and go back to heaven where they already were to begin with. When God brought them with Him moments earlier they were in a disembodied state. When God takes them back to heaven moments later they are still in a disembodied state. Totally pointless, doesn't even remotely make sense.

 

[IndianaRob]

Their body stays behind in the ground , assuming they are buried and not cremated, yet that is beside the point, but that their soul ascends to heaven and they rest in heaven until it is time for the last trump. God then brings them with Him, thus the dead in Christ rise first. Per this scenario it makes no sense that if they are already in heaven to begin with, as to why God brings them with Him to then do a u-turn moments later and take them back to where they already were to begin with?

Isn’t this verse telling us that when we’re done with this earthly we get the heavenly body?

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens

Isn’t this verse backing that up?

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

 

[jeffweeder]

THE CHURCH, body, soul, spirit are raised up by the Lord…when He descends to the CLOUDS…BEFORE the Trib & wrath is sent down from Heaven UPON ALL who dwell upon the earth.

.

Jesus said he will come after the tribulation....,

Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not provide its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And at that time the sign of the Son of Man [coming in His glory] will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth [and especially Israel] will mourn [regretting their rebellion and rejection of the Messiah], and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliance and splendor].

Paul in Thessalonians teaches according to the Lords own word.

1Thess 4
15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!


Paul wrote a second letter to dispel pretended spiritual insight from people like yourself.


2Thess 2
2 Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.

2Thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


That passage is also according to the Lords own word given here...,

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons)

 

[Super Kal]

Isn’t this verse telling us that when we’re done with this earthly we get the heavenly body?

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens

Isn’t this verse backing that up?

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2 Corinthians 5:4 is a callback to 1 Corinthians 15:54, when Paul says that "death is swallowed up in victory"
plus, we have to keep in mind, that after the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, the Apostle John said in John 3:13
"no man has ascended up into heaven, except Hi, who descended from heaven, that is the son of man"

There is currently no one ever in heaven right now. The first resurrection has not happened, that only happens at the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54

 

[Keraz]

There is currently no one ever in heaven right now. The first resurrection has not happened, that only happens at the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54

Right: even David 'sleeps' in his grave. Acts 13:36

The Last Trump has to be at the end of Gods Plan for mankind, as described in Revelation 20:11-15 Only then will anyone be made immortal and Death will be no more. Rev 21:4

 

[MA2444]

There are indeed 2 Christ's - one is true and biblical. The other is a figment of a person's imagination. Christians don't write off those who disagree with them. They simply disagree with them.

I've been watching the thread for a few days for your reply. I thought you might to chew on it before you replied. And apparently you ignored that post of mine?

You asked for scriptures, I gave you a couple and...crickets. Today you'll prolly say we never provide scripture, lol!

Whatever buddy.

 

[rwb]

You do realize that no saint can be in a glorified immortal body until the last trumpet sounds first, right?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


This presents a major problem for Pretribbers who think they are bodily snatched up to heaven before great tribulation begins. This would mean Pretribbers are being transported to heaven while still in mortal bodies, thus when they get to heaven they are dwelling there still in mortal bodies since they couldn't possibly already be in possession of immortal bodies if that can't even happen until the last trump sounds first.

Are Pretribbers going to move the goalpost here? That 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is not meaning after great tribulation after all but is meaning prior to great tribulation?

You then think it is reasonable that the church is transported to heaven while still in a mortal body state, and that they then dwell in heaven in a mortal body state until great tribulation is past? It's one thing to have souls dwelling in heaven without bodies. But whoever heard of anyone dwelling in heaven in a literal mortal body, meaning in the exact same body they had when they were allegedly snatched up to heaven prior to great tribulation?

I really find it very difficult to understand why pretrib cannot discern the difference between great tribulation that Christ clearly warns His disciples would suffer in this life, and the wrath of God that shall not come until the last trumpet sounds???

The words Christ spoke from the Mt of Olives when speaking of what His disciples would experience as they/we take the Gospel unto all the nations of the world.

Matthew 24:4-14 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

All "these things", everything Christ says, He spoke to His disciples of every age. As the Gospel is proclaimed throughout the world, beginning with the first disciples even until the end shall come, Christ disciples will suffer "great tribulation", but never so great that there are no disciples left alive on earth to complete the task of building the spiritual Kingdom of God as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth. How much more clearly could Christ have been? Christ's disciples throughout the ages will suffer tribulation.

But what does Scripture tell us regarding the wrath of God to come? It will not come before the Gospel has been preached unto all nations, because Christ says, "and then shall the end come." And God's wrath does not come as persecution and "great tribulation" for His disciples, because it shall come down as fire from God out of heaven to consume, disciples? NO WAY! The disciples, all of them, shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air before God's wrath by fire comes down to consume all who are left alive on this earth, as well as the earth itself, to make way for a new heaven and new earth where the disciples with Christ shall live with Him forevermore.

Unless one can make a distinction between "great tribulation" and the "wrath of God" to come, they will never be able to understand that we Christians are called to suffer for His name's sake. Why should we expect anything less? Did not Christ give His life for His own? We should, as Paul writes consider it a great joy to suffer for our Lord, knowing that suffering in this life for Him leads us to more abundant faithfulness in and for Him. Remembering that suffering for Him during this life as great tribulations abound cannot be compared to the joy we shall receive through Christ. Knowing that even though our body shall breathe its last, we shall ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers there until the final trumpet sounds and the wrath of God toward unbelievers shall be!

 

[IndianaRob]

2 Corinthians 5:4 is a callback to 1 Corinthians 15:54, when Paul says that "death is swallowed up in victory"
plus, we have to keep in mind, that after the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, the Apostle John said in John 3:13
"no man has ascended up into heaven, except Hi, who descended from heaven, that is the son of man"

There is currently no one ever in heaven right now. The first resurrection has not happened, that only happens at the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54

2 Corinthians 5:4 is a callback to 1 Corinthians 15:54, when Paul says that "death is swallowed up in victory"
plus, we have to keep in mind, that after the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, the Apostle John said in John 3:13
"no man has ascended up into heaven, except Hi, who descended from heaven, that is the son of man"

There is currently no one ever in heaven right now. The first resurrection has not happened, that only happens at the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54

Right: even David 'sleeps' in his grave. Acts 13:36

The Last Trump has to be at the end of Gods Plan for mankind, as described in Revelation 20:11-15 Only then will anyone be made immortal and Death will be no more. Rev 21:4

How does Acts 13:36 prove David still sleeps in his grave?

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

 

[rebuilder 454]

Are you not going try to show by scripture what you say to be true? You havent negated anything, just stated an opinion.

Here I'll give you a couple scriptures to chew on. We are not subject to Wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,,,,/KJV

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth..../KJV

The reason they're wrong about all that ,is because both lot ,and Noah, were taken, removed, or gathered ,whatever you want to call it, under normal living conditions, with buying and selling, marrying ,and giving in marriage.

in other words normal life and then they were suddenly taken.

And so the other thing is, is that the innumerable number ,that are Before the Throne of God during the tribulation, Are obviously Martyrs that are killed during the tribulation period.... and the Bible says these came out of the Great Tribulation and have washed their robes.

What they are trying to do by saying lot was taken and then immediately judgment came is actually impossible to fit their Doctrine because their Doctrine in no way allows for normal life and commerce during the time that they say the Rapture occurs.
There is another Dynamic of the one taken and one left.
Common Sense tells you that this is a group of people. The one taken and the one left is a 50% taken in a 50% left behind group of people.
So it cannot be Earth's population.
The population never has been, and never will be 50% righteous. The Bible explicitly and vividly declares, that there are few righteous and the majority, (overwhelming majority), are UN-righteous.
So there's basically nothing of their Doctrine that's true..
they're so wrong and so messed up and so embarrassed that you can't believe that they twist the scriptures to fit their error.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus said he will come after the tribulation....,

Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not provide its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And at that time the sign of the Son of Man [coming in His glory] will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth [and especially Israel] will mourn [regretting their rebellion and rejection of the Messiah], and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliance and splendor].

Paul in Thessalonians teaches according to the Lords own word.

1Thess 4
15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!


Paul wrote a second letter to dispel pretended spiritual insight from people like yourself.


2Thess 2
2 Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.

2Thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


That passage is also according to the Lords own word given here...,

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons)

The millineum is before the judgement into the LOF

 

[rebuilder 454]

Right: even David 'sleeps' in his grave. Acts 13:36

The Last Trump has to be at the end of Gods Plan for mankind, as described in Revelation 20:11-15 Only then will anyone be made immortal and Death will be no more. Rev 21:4

I am amazed at how many do not investigate what Jesus did in decending into Hades and paradise.
David is now in heaven as are all the patriarchs.
They were raised and seen in Jerusalem

They are firstfruits along with Jesus.

 

[WPM]

I've been watching the thread for a few days for your reply. I thought you might to chew on it before you replied. And apparently you ignored that post of mine?

You asked for scriptures, I gave you a couple and...crickets. Today you'll prolly say we never provide scripture, lol!

Whatever buddy.

What is it? Please repeat.

Normally when I ask: there is nothing forthcoming.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Their body stays behind in the ground , assuming they are buried and not cremated, yet that is beside the point, but that their soul ascends to heaven and they rest in heaven until it is time for the last trump. God then brings them with Him, thus the dead in Christ rise first. Per this scenario it makes no sense that if they are already in heaven to begin with, as to why God brings them with Him to then do a u-turn moments later and take them back to where they already were to begin with?

It's even more bizarre per Pretrib since they couldn't possibly be obtaining immortal bodies at this point if the last trump can't happen until after great tribulation. You then have God bringing them with Him in order to accomplish exactly zero if they then do a u-turn and go back to heaven where they already were to begin with. When God brought them with Him moments earlier they were in a disembodied state. When God takes them back to heaven moments later they are still in a disembodied state. Totally pointless, doesn't even remotely make sense.

Just keep your beliefs afloat by omission of the pretrib rapture verses.
You guys are masters of omission
And celebrate it!!!!

 

[WPM]

The millineum is before the judgement into the LOF

Correct. But your location of it is wrong. It correlates with the intra-advent period.

 

[WPM]

Just keep your beliefs afloat by omission of the pretrib rapture verses.
You guys are masters of omission
And celebrate it!!!!

This is all noise. They do not exist. If they did, you would actually quote them and then explain them. But you can't because you don't have them.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I've been watching the thread for a few days for your reply. I thought you might to chew on it before you replied. And apparently you ignored that post of mine?

You asked for scriptures, I gave you a couple and...crickets. Today you'll prolly say we never provide scripture, lol!

Whatever buddy.

Ask them to post a single postrib rapture verse

Just one.
Get ready for a good laugh.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is all noise. They do not exist. If they did, you would actually quote them and then explain them. But you can't because you don't have them.

Lying is still your banner huh?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Correct. But your location of it is wrong. It correlates with the intra-advent period.

Have you ever investigated ANYTHING?
YOU simply troll in here and lie your head off.
Then accuse everyone challenging your error of "no verses"
A telephone pole is more coherent than your trolling nonsense.

I challenged all of you a year ago to provide a single postrib rapture verse

None of you stepped up.
Your deal is a wasteland of one liners.
Trump
Last trump
7th trump
Last day
Day of the Lord
Darby
LA Haye
Scofield.

.....and on and on...pure nonsense.

 

[Taken]

Not so! There has only been one people of God since the beginning. There always will be. There is no apartheid with God. When Jesus comes all the righteous will be rescued. All of the wicked will be destroyed. Every text you duck around teaches that. All you have is what you have been taught. That is it!

You are incapable of showing Pretrib from Scripture because it does not exist. It is an unprovable religious illusion. That is why you Pretribbers are constantly frustrated and mean. That is why you are always avoiding simple requests.

God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ. There is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid, and runs completely against the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

There is definitely a continuity between Old Testament Israel and the New Testament Church. But that continuity is not through national ethnic Christ-rejecting Israel, it is through a faithful believing Israel. God has always had an elect remnant in every age. And it is that remnant that overlies the Old and New Testament.

The whole thrust of the olive tree metaphor in Romans 11 is that only the believing remnant of Israel are qualified to remain in covenant blessing. The teaching of Romans 11 in regard to one cultivated olive tree forbids the Dispensationalist ‘Separation Theology’. It also negates ‘Replacement Theology’. The New Testament congregation is clearly not a new Israel. But the analogy reinforces a faithful ‘Remnant Theology’ or an ‘Expansion Theology’ or ‘Continuation Theology’.

The continuation of the believing Israeli flock, and its morphing into the New Testament congregation, confirmed the expansion of faithful Israel in the new covenant period. It also explains the Israeli identify of the new covenant people of God and demonstrates the sense of continuity that existed between both covenant eras. Gentiles were now to be corralled into faithful Israel in extraordinary numbers. They trusted in Israel’s Messiah, they joined the old covenant flock, and became the New Testament people of God. This was a radical overhaul for even the most open-minded of Christ’s disciples. We saw that in their parochial response to Christ’s kingdom teaching in Acts 1:6 and with their struggle in the book of Acts to come to terms with accommodating Gentiles joining the congregation (ekklesia) on an equal basis to that of Jews.

Jesus said prior to the cross, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Jesus brought a radical revolutionary message to the early Jewish disciples. He told them that there are others that are not of this flock (namely not of the Jewish race) that belong to Him, who will be integrated into His sheepfold. He was talking here of the Gentiles. What is more, He describes how these two peoples (both Jews and Gentiles) would be united together in Him and become one flock! Jesus is here acknowledging that salvation would not be limited to the Jewish race. He was predicting that the Gospel would expand out and embrace the nations. He explains that there would then be a fusion of the believing element of both ethnic groups into one cohesive believing sheepfold – with Him as a Shepherd. This indeed happened 2000 years ago.

Not so!

Thanks for your convoluted commentary…
One people NO DIVISION, ethnic or otherwise.
All people, ethnic or otherwise fused 2,000 years ago.

From the beginning…God CLEARLY ESTABLISHED DIVISION, regarding MULTIPLE things….
Light / Dark
Up / Down
With / Without
Good / Evil
IN / OUT
PEOPLE;
Hebrews, Tribes, Israel / Greeks, Gentiles

In the Garden Adam Was being TAUGHT from God…ONLY Good.
Adam Had at his Offering a TREE to eat from, CALL the TREE OF LIFE…He failed to take and eat from the Tree of Life before he was SENT out of the Garden.

^^^^ THOSE DIVISIONS were EXACTLY what Adam LEARNED WHEN He ate from the TREE OF GOOD AND EVIL…

2,000 + years ago, God purposed IN Himself, His Word, to be Sent to Earth, In the Likeness AS a specific Tribesman of ethnic ISRAEL Jewish man, TO SEEK OUT, preach and teach SPECIFICALLY the Tribesmen OF ethnic ISRAEL (that were Choosing and Following Gentile ways).

1 Sam. 9:
[16] To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.

Eph 1:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Isa 55:
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Luke 1:
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Heb 1:
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son

John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Matt 15:
[24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

When you ignore HISTORY, when you fail to follow HISTORY bit by bit, step by step, you lose track of the TRUTH!

ISRAEL (the Tribesmen) Are a specific Ethnic group….and are STILL DIVIDED…
Amongst themselves AND FROM Gentiles.

Gentiles (Greeks and all others NOT ISRAEL) Are specific Ethnic groups….are STILL DIVIDED…
Amongst themselves AND FROM Israel.

Gods OFFERING 2,000+ Years ago IS Gods PLAN of reconciliation ACCORDING TO GODS, manner, bit by bit, step by step…Order and Way…

Gods END of DAYS (as we now now them)…being the DIVISIONS among men….
* SHALL BE DIVISIONS ONCE and FOREVER according to Gods Order and Way…
Before, During, After…Gods Tribulations and Wrath He SHALL SEND DOWN FROM HEAVEN UPON the WHOLE of mans WORLD, EARTH.

1 John 5:
[19] And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

You should have LEARNED…
Once before THESE DAYS..the whole world was in wickedness….AND Gods ANGER waxed greatly…THAT ONLY 8 did God find that were Faithful to God….AND God DESTROYED the Earth and ALL that were UNFAITHFUL…

And the 8 Gods SAVED…were Lifted UP above the Earth while God was DESTROYING the Earth…
And the SAME shall AGAIN OCCUR.

It matters NOT to me, IF YOU ARE or ARE NOT among those WHOM have been Taught, told, know, act, do….to ESCAPE the DEVASTATION, that SHALL COME UPON the earth.

Luke 21:
[36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If you have NOT LEARNED and CHOSEN to be accounted WORTHY to escape Gods Tribulations and Wrath sent upon the whole of the earth… you deal with it, you enjoy it, you be content with your choices.

Me? I made my election, my choice a long time ago to be ACCOUNTED WORTHY according to Gods Order and Way and Offering, He MADE 2,000+ years ago, By, Through, Of His WORD Jesus, His LIFE Jesus, His WAY Jesus, His WISDOM Christ, His POWER Christ, His SEED Christ…WHO presently DWELL IN me and I IN Him….

AND WHERE HE IS ….(DURING Gods Tribulations and Wrath Send down from Heaven to Earth…). I AM now IN SPIRIT and SHALL BE FACE TO FACE WITH HIM, WHERE HE IS…
(Ding, ding, ding….Where He shall be is NOT IN Heaven, NOT ON Earth…BUT IN the Clouds / Air above the Earth…(the SAME LAST PLACE Jesus was WITNESSED being SEEN as He was ascending INTO HEAVEN WITH ALL WHO…are ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE Gods Tribulations and Wrath.)

It’s SAD for you…you are Ignorant of Gods Order and Way….purposing Your way instead…




Glory to God,
Taken