The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Taken]

I guess I missed that. You, therefore, do not take these events in the literal sense, correct? IOW, unlike how Christ literally bodily rose from the dead, none of the dead in Christ that rise first are literally bodily rising from the dead per your view of this, correct?

Yes…I do take scriptural teaching in the LITERAL sense. If God said it, If Jesus said it…and since God approved the Scripture…
It IS truth to me….whether or not it makes sense to my MIND….The Lord God CAN NOT LIE.
I also appeal to God for His Understanding of Spiritual things / Events.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

You are so full of yourself!

You may need a q-Tip…I have repeatedly claimed it is Christ IN me…
Can’t help you if that is not satisfactory unto you.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[WPM]

You may need a q-Tip…I have repeatedly claimed it is Christ IN me…
Can’t help you if that is not satisfactory unto you.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

There are indeed 2 Christ's - one is true and biblical. The other is a figment of a person's imagination. Christians don't write off those who disagree with them. They simply disagree with them.

 

[Taken]

There are indeed 2 Christ's - one is true and biblical. The other is a figment of a person's imagination. Christians don't write off those who disagree with them. They simply disagree with them.

Sure…and they should know WHY they disagree.

 

[WPM]

Sure…and they should know WHY they disagree.

So, give me Scripture that supports a Pretrib rapture, followed by a 7 yr trib (or any trib), followed by a 3rd coming? No Pretrib here has been able to do that. All they have is insults, name-calling and avoidance.

 

[jeffweeder]

What is incoherent is making a distinction between being IN CHRIST or IN JESUS as if saying in Christ or in Jesus does not mean the same thing??? That is not only incoherent, but a bit bizarre! How can anyone professing to be of Christ not understand that Jesus is Christ? Jesus is the personal name our Lord was given, and Christ is His identity as our anointed Messiah/Savior and Lord.

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 1:1 (KJV) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Acts 2:36 (KJV) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Amen, good post.

Only someone who is lacking Spiritual understanding would disagree.

 

[Taken]

So, give me Scripture that supports a Pretrib rapture, followed by a 7 yr trib (or any trib), followed by a 3rd coming? No Pretrib here has been able to do that. All they have is insults, name-calling and avoidance.

You look them up….

It is a STUDY of multiple scriptures that have been posted and reposted on every thread about the Pretribulation Rapture…

What I do NOT see on Anti-Pre-tribulation Rapture threads….
IS…anyone posting the PRESENCE of the CHURCH “MEMBERS”…ie THOSE IN CHRIST, ON EARTH during the tribulation..

The Tribulation IS the DAY of WRATH….Zeph 1:15

So WHY is the CHURCH “members” WHO have been MADE WHOLE, body, soul, spirit…IN Christ….ON Earth suffering wrath sent down from Heaven?
WHEN….1 Thes 5:9 says they are NOT appointed to Wrath…


Why are ANTI-Pre trib Rapture claimants …. SILENT on any Scriptures to support the CHURCH shall go through the tribulation and suffer Wrath?


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Amen, good post.

Only someone who is lacking Spiritual understanding would disagree.

Actually….IN Christ…are made whole and raised up by the Lord, to the clouds, before the Trib.

Those IN Jesus…still living when the trib occurs become KILLED then soul saved, soul raised up by God to Heaven and body raised up by God at the first resurrection.

He with spiritual understanding comprehends the difference and WHY and WHEN they are raised UP and by WHOM.

Do the facts of who, what, when, why, where plainly given you in scripture elude you?

 

[jeffweeder]

Actually….IN Christ…are made whole and raised up by the Lord, to the clouds, before the Trib.

Those IN Jesus…still living when the trib occurs become KILLED then soul saved, soul raised up by God to Heaven and body raised up by God at the first resurrection.

Where does it state that?

 

[Keraz]

Why are ANTI-Pre trib Rapture claimants …. SILENT on any Scriptures to support the CHURCH shall go through the tribulation and suffer Wrath?

Faithful Christians will not suffer Gods wrath, That is directed at those people who take the mark of the beast. Revelation 13:11-17

Revelation 12:14 and 17 are indisputable; the Church, Gods faithful Christian peoples, are on earth during the 42 month, or 1260 day period of world Satanic control.
The only thing that can be construed as a 'rapture', is when Jesus Returns, His angels will gather those who remain alive at that time- to where Hie will be - Jerusalem. The two Witnesses and all the martyrs killed during that period, will be resurrected and be appointed His Priests and co-rulers. Revelation 20:6

You say the 'rapture to heaven; is found by a study of multiple scriptures.
I study all the Bible and I do not see such a thing even implied. A rapture of people off the earth, is never stated or even hinted anywhere.
You had better have a Plan B ready!

 

[Taken]

Where does it state that?

Seriously? Umpteen times….it has been posted and reposted…..1 Thes 4…..

 

[jeffweeder]

Actually….IN Christ…are made whole and raised up by the Lord, to the clouds, before the Trib.

Those IN Jesus…still living when the trib occurs become KILLED then soul saved, soul raised up by God to Heaven and body raised up by God at the first resurrection.

He with spiritual understanding comprehends the difference and WHY and WHEN they are raised UP and by WHOM.

Seriously? Umpteen times….it has been posted and reposted…..1 Thes 4…..

1Thess 4
15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].


How does that support what you believe above?


Both the dead and the living are raised /caught up bodily at the same time and made whole to meet the Lord at his coming.

 

[Davidpt]

There are indeed 2 Christ's - one is true and biblical. The other is a figment of a person's imagination. Christians don't write off those who disagree with them. They simply disagree with them.

I wish I didn't have to disagree with one single Christian. Yet, how can I agree with every single Christian? I can't. So it's not like I enjoy disagreeing with other Christians about things, it's that I have no choice but to do disagree at times. Yet, I don't think less of the person simply because I disagree with them about something. And besides, just because I might disagree with someone about something, there is always that chance that the other person might be the one correct rather than me. But that's not a one way street. That works both ways since it is not reasonable that someone I'm having a disagreement with, that they are the ones that are always correct every single time, but never me, I'm wrong every single time.

 

[Davidpt]

Yes…I do take scriptural teaching in the LITERAL sense. If God said it, If Jesus said it…and since God approved the Scripture…
It IS truth to me….whether or not it makes sense to my MIND….The Lord God CAN NOT LIE.
I also appeal to God for His Understanding of Spiritual things / Events.

Glory to God,
Taken

What were you meaning by a spiritual event then?

 

[WPM]

You look them up….

It is a STUDY of multiple scriptures that have been posted and reposted on every thread about the Pretribulation Rapture…

What I do NOT see on Anti-Pre-tribulation Rapture threads….
IS…anyone posting the PRESENCE of the CHURCH “MEMBERS”…ie THOSE IN CHRIST, ON EARTH during the tribulation..

The Tribulation IS the DAY of WRATH….Zeph 1:15

So WHY is the CHURCH “members” WHO have been MADE WHOLE, body, soul, spirit…IN Christ….ON Earth suffering wrath sent down from Heaven?
WHEN….1 Thes 5:9 says they are NOT appointed to Wrath…


Why are ANTI-Pre trib Rapture claimants …. SILENT on any Scriptures to support the CHURCH shall go through the tribulation and suffer Wrath?


Glory to God,
Taken

No! You know, every Pretribbers knows, we all know, it is not in God's Book. It is a extra biblical Jesuit invention. That is why you cannot show it. Your avoidance reinforces the Op. Appreciate!

Case closed!!!

 

[WPM]

You look them up….

It is a STUDY of multiple scriptures that have been posted and reposted on every thread about the Pretribulation Rapture…

What I do NOT see on Anti-Pre-tribulation Rapture threads….
IS…anyone posting the PRESENCE of the CHURCH “MEMBERS”…ie THOSE IN CHRIST, ON EARTH during the tribulation..

The Tribulation IS the DAY of WRATH….Zeph 1:15

So WHY is the CHURCH “members” WHO have been MADE WHOLE, body, soul, spirit…IN Christ….ON Earth suffering wrath sent down from Heaven?
WHEN….1 Thes 5:9 says they are NOT appointed to Wrath…


Why are ANTI-Pre trib Rapture claimants …. SILENT on any Scriptures to support the CHURCH shall go through the tribulation and suffer Wrath?


Glory to God,
Taken

You do not get it do you? It would help if you actually listened to what we believe not what you think we believe.

The Church is preserved in the midst of judgment. God's elect are never subject to the wrath of God - never. See God's dealing with Israel when the plagues hit in Egypt. Revelation is a symbolic refence to, and depiction of, that with a spiritual application.

 

[Taken]

1Thess 4
15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].


How does that support what you believe above?

This topic has be posted numerous times with numerous scriptures…for that which APPLIES to those “IN” Christ….THE CHURCH.

THE CHURCH, body, soul, spirit are raised up by the Lord…when He descends to the CLOUDS…BEFORE the Trib & wrath is sent down from Heaven UPON ALL who dwell upon the earth.

* Some will come into belief DURING THE TRIB and shall be SOUL SAVED and KILLED, Their soul raised up to Heaven and their body’s raised BY God at the First Resurrection.
* A Remnant will come into belief DURING the TRIB and survive physical death…and generationally mortally continue living, reproducing, dying, for 1,000 years, VOID of satans and devils presents….then at the end of the 1,000 years shall come against the Lords Kingdom and they be killed…ending mortal life of manKIND.
* NONE of those are Christ’s CHURCH…who were raised up by the Lord…in the clouds /air with the Lord…NOt subject to the tribulation and wrath…waiting for the time when the Lord returns to earth and they come with Him…He sits in his Kingdom for 1,000 years with HIS Church, with HIS angels….ruling over MORTAL Men.

Both the dead and the living are raised /caught up bodily at the same time and made whole to meet the Lord at his coming.

No…ONLY the dead and living “IN” Christ.

 

[Taken]

You do not get it do you? It would help if you actually listened to what we believe not what you think we believe.

The Church is preserved in the midst of judgment. God's elect are never subject to the wrath of God - never. See God's dealing with Israel when the plagues hit in Egypt. Revelation is a symbolic refence to, and depiction of, that with a spiritual application.

Only have noticed your comments ABOUT…
Pre trib Rapture…
Have not noticed your Standing….Belief…
IF the Church is Raptured BEFORE the Trib Begins….or not?

 

[WPM]

This topic has be posted numerous times with numerous scriptures…for that which APPLIES to those “IN” Christ….THE CHURCH.

THE CHURCH, body, soul, spirit are raised up by the Lord…when He descends to the CLOUDS…BEFORE the Trib & wrath is sent down from Heaven UPON ALL who dwell upon the earth.

* Some will come into belief DURING THE TRIB and shall be SOUL SAVED and KILLED, Their soul raised up to Heaven and their body’s raised BY God at the First Resurrection.
* A Remnant will come into belief DURING the TRIB and survive physical death…and generationally mortally continue living, reproducing, dying, for 1,000 years, VOID of satans and devils presents….then at the end of the 1,000 years shall come against the Lords Kingdom and they be killed…ending mortal life of manKIND.
* NONE of those are Christ’s CHURCH…who were raised up by the Lord…in the clouds /air with the Lord…NOt subject to the tribulation and wrath…waiting for the time when the Lord returns to earth and they come with Him…He sits in his Kingdom for 1,000 years with HIS Church, with HIS angels….ruling over MORTAL Men.



No…ONLY the dead and living “IN” Christ.

Not so! There has only been one people of God since the beginning. There always will be. There is no apartheid with God. When Jesus comes all the righteous will be rescued. All of the wicked will be destroyed. Every text you duck around teaches that. All you have is what you have been taught. That is it!

You are incapable of showing Pretrib from Scripture because it does not exist. It is an unprovable religious illusion. That is why you Pretribbers are constantly frustrated and mean. That is why you are always avoiding simple requests.

God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ. There is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid, and runs completely against the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

There is definitely a continuity between Old Testament Israel and the New Testament Church. But that continuity is not through national ethnic Christ-rejecting Israel, it is through a faithful believing Israel. God has always had an elect remnant in every age. And it is that remnant that overlies the Old and New Testament.

The whole thrust of the olive tree metaphor in Romans 11 is that only the believing remnant of Israel are qualified to remain in covenant blessing. The teaching of Romans 11 in regard to one cultivated olive tree forbids the Dispensationalist ‘Separation Theology’. It also negates ‘Replacement Theology’. The New Testament congregation is clearly not a new Israel. But the analogy reinforces a faithful ‘Remnant Theology’ or an ‘Expansion Theology’ or ‘Continuation Theology’.

The continuation of the believing Israeli flock, and its morphing into the New Testament congregation, confirmed the expansion of faithful Israel in the new covenant period. It also explains the Israeli identify of the new covenant people of God and demonstrates the sense of continuity that existed between both covenant eras. Gentiles were now to be corralled into faithful Israel in extraordinary numbers. They trusted in Israel’s Messiah, they joined the old covenant flock, and became the New Testament people of God. This was a radical overhaul for even the most open-minded of Christ’s disciples. We saw that in their parochial response to Christ’s kingdom teaching in Acts 1:6 and with their struggle in the book of Acts to come to terms with accommodating Gentiles joining the congregation (ekklesia) on an equal basis to that of Jews.

Jesus said prior to the cross, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Jesus brought a radical revolutionary message to the early Jewish disciples. He told them that there are others that are not of this flock (namely not of the Jewish race) that belong to Him, who will be integrated into His sheepfold. He was talking here of the Gentiles. What is more, He describes how these two peoples (both Jews and Gentiles) would be united together in Him and become one flock! Jesus is here acknowledging that salvation would not be limited to the Jewish race. He was predicting that the Gospel would expand out and embrace the nations. He explains that there would then be a fusion of the believing element of both ethnic groups into one cohesive believing sheepfold – with Him as a Shepherd. This indeed happened 2000 years ago.

 

[Davidpt]

This topic has be posted numerous times with numerous scriptures…for that which APPLIES to those “IN” Christ….THE CHURCH.

THE CHURCH, body, soul, spirit are raised up by the Lord…when He descends to the CLOUDS…BEFORE the Trib & wrath is sent down from Heaven UPON ALL who dwell upon the earth.

* Some will come into belief DURING THE TRIB and shall be SOUL SAVED and KILLED, Their soul raised up to Heaven and their body’s raised BY God at the First Resurrection.
* A Remnant will come into belief DURING the TRIB and survive physical death…and generationally mortally continue living, reproducing, dying, for 1,000 years, VOID of satans and devils presents….then at the end of the 1,000 years shall come against the Lords Kingdom and they be killed…ending mortal life of manKIND.
* NONE of those are Christ’s CHURCH…who were raised up by the Lord…in the clouds /air with the Lord…NOt subject to the tribulation and wrath…waiting for the time when the Lord returns to earth and they come with Him…He sits in his Kingdom for 1,000 years with HIS Church, with HIS angels….ruling over MORTAL Men.



No…ONLY the dead and living “IN” Christ.

You do realize that no saint can be in a glorified immortal body until the last trumpet sounds first, right?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


This presents a major problem for Pretribbers who think they are bodily snatched up to heaven before great tribulation begins. This would mean Pretribbers are being transported to heaven while still in mortal bodies, thus when they get to heaven they are dwelling there still in mortal bodies since they couldn't possibly already be in possession of immortal bodies if that can't even happen until the last trump sounds first.

Are Pretribbers going to move the goalpost here? That 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is not meaning after great tribulation after all but is meaning prior to great tribulation?

You then think it is reasonable that the church is transported to heaven while still in a mortal body state, and that they then dwell in heaven in a mortal body state until great tribulation is past? It's one thing to have souls dwelling in heaven without bodies. But whoever heard of anyone dwelling in heaven in a literal mortal body, meaning in the exact same body they had when they were allegedly snatched up to heaven prior to great tribulation?