The absurdity of Pretrib logic

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rwb

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Why did Jesus ASK His disciples…??
What say you?

Mark 8:
[27] And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?

AND

[29] And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

AND…before answering WHY, consider WHAT Jesus SAID to those who KNEW the answer to His question…

CONSIDER “HOW” the Disciples KNEW the answer to His QUESTION…

Matt 16:
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mark 30
[30] And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

Matt 16:
[20] Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

WHY? What say you?


Glory to God,
Taken

The disciples of Christ could not be martyred before completing the task He was assigning to them, which was "build My church". And that would require the power of the Holy Spirit in them, which had not yet come. (Jo 14:16-17) His disciples would live to be witnesses of His sacrificial death and resurrection, then be witnesses of the Gospel of Christ Jesus our Lord. (Mt 16:21-28)

Matthew 16:17-19 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 

Taken

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What is incoherent is making a distinction between being IN CHRIST or IN JESUS as if saying in Christ or in Jesus does not mean the same thing??? That is not only incoherent, but a bit bizarre! How can anyone professing to be of Christ not understand that Jesus is Christ? Jesus is the personal name our Lord was given, and Christ is His identity as our anointed Messiah/Savior and Lord.

You fail to comprehend MEN shall be ACCOUNTED NOT ACCORDING TO WHAT IS….RATHER WHAT INDIVIDUAL MEN HEARTFULY BELIEVE!

Are you unaware ancient OT men did NOT KNOW the NAME of Gods Word (Jesus) or the NAME of Gods Power (Christ)…because it was KEPT Secret from them?
Yet…(many) OT men Believed IN (until their physical death)…God AND His WORD AND His POWER.

Are you unaware men historically AND TODAY believe IN JESUS….but NOT THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST?

Are you unaware men historically and presently BELIEVE IN Jesus AND Jesus IS the Christ….but HAVE NEVER Confessed their belief to the Lord God?

Are you unaware during the LAST DAYS…EVERY SINGLE individual manKIND of being is Held accountable for his True Heartful Belief at the MOMENT of his Physical Death…WHICH WILL DETERMINE his ETERNAL Judgement?

Are you unaware NOT EVERY SINGLE individual manKIND of Being believes the SAME THINGS?

Christ the Lord Jesus….SHALL RAISE UP unto Him…(before the trib) Those WHO HAVE…believed IN God, IN Jesus, IN Christ…
AND Confessed their true Heartful BELIEF unto the Lord God Almighty.
THAT raising up is called THE RAPTURE.

God … SHALL RAISE UP unto Him…(after the trib)…Those WHO Died heartfully Believing IN JESUS…
How does God KNOW…who they are?
Scripture tells you … He searches their HEART for their TRUE Belief!
THAT raising up is called the FIRST Resurrection.

God …SHALL ALSO RAISE UP …(after the trib)….Those who rejected Jesus, rejected God.
How does God KNOW…who they are?
He searches their Heart.
Called the SECOND Resurrection.
THEY shall stand BeFORE the JUDGE…see Him…BelIeve…BOW in Worship unto Him…
(Fulfilling Prophecy that ALL shall BELIEVE)…
The ALL Life removed from their body & soul and their body & soul DESTROYED in the lake of fire, IN Hell…and they Forgotten.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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The disciples of Christ could not be martyred before completing the task He was assigning to them, which was "build My church". And that would require the power of the Holy Spirit in them, which had not yet come. (Jo 14:16-17) His disciples would live to be witnesses of His sacrificial death and resurrection, then be witnesses of the Gospel of Christ Jesus our Lord. (Mt 16:21-28)

Matthew 16:17-19 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The answer to WHY did Jesus ask his DISCIPLES “WHO” they thought He is….
WAS TO REVEAL…an Order and Way of God…
Meaning Men are to learn / know Jesus IS THE CHRIST….by God TELLING THEM…!!

The answer to WHY Jesus said for His Disciples to TELL no man Jesus IS the Christ….same reason…
It is Gods Place, Order and Way for God to tell men, Jesus IS the Christ.

It is Gods Order and Way….
God introduced the Son of Man…
Then
That His name is Jesus.
Then
That the Son of man IS the Only begotten Son of God
Then
That the Son of God IS ….Gods Messiah, Gods Christ…Gods word, Gods Life, Gods Way, Gods wisdom, Gods Power, Gods seed, Gods Gift to mankind to take, receive, possess forever or reject.


Glory to God,
Taken
 

rwb

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You fail to comprehend MEN shall be ACCOUNTED NOT ACCORDING TO WHAT IS….RATHER WHAT INDIVIDUAL MEN HEARTFULY BELIEVE!

Are you unaware ancient OT men did NOT KNOW the NAME of Gods Word (Jesus) or the NAME of Gods Power (Christ)…because it was KEPT Secret from them?
Yet…(many) OT men Believed IN (until their physical death)…God AND His WORD AND His POWER.

Are you unaware men historically AND TODAY believe IN JESUS….but NOT THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST?

Are you unaware men historically and presently BELIEVE IN Jesus AND Jesus IS the Christ….but HAVE NEVER Confessed their belief to the Lord God?

Are you unaware during the LAST DAYS…EVERY SINGLE individual manKIND of being is Held accountable for his True Heartful Belief at the MOMENT of his Physical Death…WHICH WILL DETERMINE his ETERNAL Judgement?

Are you unaware NOT EVERY SINGLE individual manKIND of Being believes the SAME THINGS?

How does all you say here give you license to argue in Christ and in Jesus are not saying the very same thing??? What does any of this have to do with in Christ and in Jesus meaning the SAME THING?

EVEN THOUGH THE OLD COVENANT PEOPLE DID NOT KNOW THE NAME JESUS, THEY DID KNOW ENOUGH TO RECOGNIZE THAT JESUS, THE CHRIST IS THE MESSIAH/SAVIOR THE PROPHETS FORETELL WOULD COME!
Christ the Lord Jesus….SHALL RAISE UP unto Him…(before the trib) Those WHO HAVE…believed IN God, IN Jesus, IN Christ…

Those who shall be raised up unto Him are destined to suffer persecution and even great tribulation in this life! However, those who are of Christ shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air before the WRATH of God by fire shall be poured upon the whole earth. Just as the Apostle Paul was called to great suffering for the name of Christ in this life, all who are faithful to claim the name of the Lord shall endure great persecution and suffering in this life. Which is why Christ reminds us to remain faithful unto DEATH (bodily) and we shall receive the crown of life.

Acts 9:16 (KJV) For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Revelation 2:10 (KJV) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Called the SECOND Resurrection.

Where does Scripture mention this SECOND resurrection? I find only the "first resurrection" and a bodily resurrection of all who are in the graves in the hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds.
 
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Davidpt

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Davidpt addresses a post in detail occasionally but never comes back to answer the multiple holes in his arguments. That has been his modus operandi for years. His avoidance only serves to reinforce the Amil paradigm.

The way I reason things in general, assuming one side is correct, the side that is correct would be like arguing that 2 + 2 = 4, the side that is wrong would be like arguing 2 + 2 = 5. Why would anyone arguing 2 + 2 = 4 need to consider any arguments by someone that is arguing 2 + 2 = 5? That's backwards, thus a waste of time since the one arguing 2 + 2 = 4 already has the trump argument that can't be trumped.

For example, 1 Corinthians 15:28. Anyone that insists that the same day that Christ returns this is the same day 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, meaning the end has arrived, is someone that is arguing 2 + 2 = 5, and not someone that is arguing 2 + 2 = 4. It is totally impossible, as in zero possibility, that the same day Christ returns, keeping in mind that days we experience as humans involve 24 hours each, that within 24 hours of Him having returned 1 Corinthians 15:28 will have been fulfilled. Which also means that if 24 hours have come and gone it is now no longer the same day Christ returned, though. Which then brings up the following point.

If after He has returned and that 24 hours have come and gone and that 1 Corinthians 15:28 still hasn't been fulfilled, what should that be telling anyone with a brain? It should be telling anyone with a brain that there is obviously, thus undeniably, a gap between the coming in 1 Corinthians 15:23 and the end meant in verse 24, since it is impossible that within 24 hours of Him having returned 1 Corinthians 15:28 is then fulfilled.

If the last day involves more than 24 hours anyway, why not simply apply 2 Peter 3:8 to this last day in question? At least a thousand years can explain this extra time needed before 1 Corinthians 15:28 can be fulfilled. 24 hours certainly can't explain it. As if Matthew 19:28, for example, something that must be fulfilled post the 2nd coming, that this can somehow be fulfilled within 24 hours of Christ having returned. That is one of the stupidist things I have ever heard of, that that verse can somehow be fulfilled from start to finish within 24 hours of Christ having returned. Not to mention, there is still the great white throne judgment to factor in as well.

Common sense alone proves that Premil has to be true because something has to explain this extra time needed to fulfill something such as Matthew 19:28 post the 2nd coming. Why not this thousand years since a single 24 hour day obviously can't explain it? Once again, until Matthew 19:28 is fulfilled first, and until the great white judgment is fulfilled first, keeping in mind that neither of them can be fulfilled within 24 hours or less, we can't be in the time of 1 Corinthians 15:28 in the meantime.
 

rwb

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The answer to WHY did Jesus ask his DISCIPLES “WHO” they thought He is….
WAS TO REVEAL…an Order and Way of God…
Meaning Men are to learn / know Jesus IS THE CHRIST….by God TELLING THEM…!!

The answer to WHY Jesus said for His Disciples to TELL no man Jesus IS the Christ….same reason…
It is Gods Place, Order and Way for God to tell men, Jesus IS the Christ.

It is Gods Order and Way….
God introduced the Son of Man…
Then
That His name is Jesus.
Then
That the Son of man IS the Only begotten Son of God
Then
That the Son of God IS ….Gods Messiah, Gods Christ…Gods word, Gods Life, Gods Way, Gods wisdom, Gods Power, Gods seed, Gods Gift to mankind to take, receive, possess forever or reject.


Glory to God,
Taken

That Jesus is Christ comes to mankind through the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit! The disciples would not have understanding of all the indwelling Spirit would teach them, before He was sent to be IN them. But again, I don't know what any of this has to do with saying in Christ and in Jesus is NOT saying the very same thing???
 

Taken

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How does all you say here give you license to argue in Christ and in Jesus are not saying the very same thing??? What does any of this have to do with in Christ and in Jesus meaning the SAME THING?

You are claiming …IN Christ…IN Jesus means the same thing.

Scripture expressly differentiates those two terms and expressly notifies you WHO redeems those IN Christ and those IN Jesus.

I Can NOT Understand spiritual things FOR YOU.
 

Taken

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I don't know what any of this has to do with saying in Christ and in Jesus is NOT saying the very same thing???

I see you lack understanding regarding express Spiritual events…

Only God can give you spiritual understanding.
 

Taken

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@CadyandZoe ~

It is beyond frustrating to have a conversation regarding spiritual things, when the other is void of spiritual understanding….

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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covenantee

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Why did Jesus ASK His disciples…??
What say you?

Mark 8:
[27] And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?

AND

[29] And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

AND…before answering WHY, consider WHAT Jesus SAID to those who KNEW the answer to His question…

CONSIDER “HOW” the Disciples KNEW the answer to His QUESTION…

Matt 16:
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mark 30
[30] And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

Matt 16:
[20] Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

WHY? What say you?


Glory to God,
Taken
You've quoted your own disproof.

Matt 16:
[20] Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Jesus Christ Himself declared that He was Jesus the Christ.

He drew no distinction between Jesus and Christ.

Therefore there is no distinction between "in Jesus" and "in Christ".

So why are you distinguishing?
 

Hobie

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I want to say at the start, this is not an attack on individual Pretribbers. There are many solid Pretribbers out there. This is a challenge on the doctrine espoused by them.

Anyone that has engaged with Pretribbers on forums like this will know that they cannot furnish us with one single proof text to support their teaching. They cannot show you where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord. That is because it does not exist. It is a man-made doctrine. They seem incapable of recognizing that there is only one final future coming of the Lord. That event will see Jesus coming literally, physically and visibly "with" and "for" His people. Multiple Scripture proves that He will rescue all His elect and then destroy all the wicked. This is shown to be the end!

Here are some of the revealing statements Pretribbers have made recently.














So, where is a Pretrib rapture in the Bible? Nowhere! They admit this, yet refuse to abandon their error. Amazing! They admit this, yet they want to change us and get us to believe this error. It is ridiculous!

The Bible evidence supports one final future climatic coming of Jesus

The Bible shows us that there is one future coming of the Lord which is all-consummating.

The Greek word parousia appears 24 times in the New Testament. It is rendered “coming” in 22 passages and “presence” in 2. The word can be interpreted coming, arrival or presence and simply expresses in the Greek what it implies in the English. The word parousia is mostly applied in Scripture to the second coming of the Lord although it is not solely restricted to that Advent. In II Thessalonians 2:9 the word is applied to the arrival of antichrist. The word is also used in other passages to describe the coming or arrival of a person (1 Corinthians 16:17 and 2 Corinthians 7:6).

Notwithstanding, the first time we encounter the word parousia in relation to the coming of the Lord is in Matthew 24. The word is found in the disciples’ response to the Lord’s statement outside the temple.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then question the Lord on the detail, meaning and timing of this solemn prophecy and of the end of the world by way of two questions in Matthew 24:3, asking,

(1) “Tell us, when shall these things be?” and
(2) what shall be the sign of thy coming [or parousia], and of the end [or sunteleías, or completion, or consummation] of the world?”

In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ immediately adds in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [Gr. erchomai] in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together[Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Here is the gathering of God's people, the catching away, the rapture of the Church. This comes after the tribulation period.

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

This day finds the wicked unprepared. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”
Very true..
 

Davidpt

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You are claiming …IN Christ…IN Jesus means the same thing.

Scripture expressly differentiates those two terms and expressly notifies you WHO redeems those IN Christ and those IN Jesus.

I Can NOT Understand spiritual things FOR YOU.

I certainly don't know what you are meaning. Instead of making statements like that then expecting some of the rest of us to grasp why you conclude that, why not simply provide an example or two from the Bible that you feel proves your point, then explain how it proves your point?
 

Taken

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I certainly don't know what you are meaning. Instead of making statements like that then expecting some of the rest of us to grasp why you conclude that, why not simply provide an example or two from the Bible that you feel proves your point, then explain how it proves your point?


Already provided the Scriptures….
you can have a look…

1 Thes 4:16 IN Christ..
Raised by the Lord…ie pre-Trib Rapture

1 Thes 4:14 IN Jesus
Raised by God…ie post Trib First resurrection

Glory to God,
Taken
 

WPM

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I see you lack understanding regarding express Spiritual events…

Only God can give you spiritual understanding.
This sums up the Pretrib approach to end times. Demean those who disagree with you. And if anyone disagrees with you they are spiritually unenlightened.

Pride cometh before a fall.
 
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Davidpt

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Already provided the Scriptures….
you can have a look…

1 Thes 4:16 IN Christ..
Raised by the Lord…ie pre-Trib Rapture

1 Thes 4:14 IN Jesus
Raised by God…ie post Trib First resurrection

Glory to God,
Taken

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


them also which sleep in Jesus
the dead in Christ shall rise first

I still don't know what you are meaning. Sleep in this context means they are physically dead back on earth, exactly what verse 16 says since that verse says they are the dead. Jesus also means Christ, right? Not that you are disagreeing with that. The point then being, it shouldn't be wrong to understand verse 14 like such---them also which are dead in Jesus. Nor should it be wrong to understand verse 16 like such--those that sleep in Christ shall rise first. It means the same thing, regardless.

A question or two for you. Verse 14 says that God will bring those that sleep in Jesus with Him.

Bring them from where? As in, where are they initially located when He brings them with Him. In order to bring them with Him He has to gather them up first from somewhere.

To then take them to where? Meaning after He brought them with Him, where does He take them to after that?
 

Taken

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This sums up the Pretrib approach to end times. Demean those who disagree with you. And if anyone disagrees with you they are spiritually unenlightened.

Pride cometh before a fall.

It is not “prideful” to recognize when a person does not comprehend plain knowledge or knowledge that is effected spiritually and requires spiritual understanding to know how a spiritual event shall come to pass.

it is also not a prideful thing to be or remain ignorant.
Regarding spiritual things I get my understanding FROM GOD…no clue what you study or where you get your understanding.

The rapture…The first resurrection…The second resurrection ARE Spiritual Events…
If you do not KNOW which does or does not apply to you or WHY…not my dilemma.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Davidpt

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It is not “prideful” to recognize when a person does not comprehend plain knowledge or knowledge that is effected spiritually and requires spiritual understanding to know how a spiritual event shall come to pass.

it is also not a prideful thing to be or remain ignorant.
Regarding spiritual things I get my understanding FROM GOD…no clue what you study or where you get your understanding.

The rapture…The first resurrection…The second resurrection ARE Spiritual Events…
If you do not KNOW which does or does not apply to you or WHY…not my dilemma.

Glory to God,
Taken

I guess I missed that. You, therefore, do not take these events in the literal sense, correct? IOW, unlike how Christ literally bodily rose from the dead, none of the dead in Christ that rise first are literally bodily rising from the dead per your view of this, correct?
 

WPM

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It is not “prideful” to recognize when a person does not comprehend plain knowledge or knowledge that is effected spiritually and requires spiritual understanding to know how a spiritual event shall come to pass.

it is also not a prideful thing to be or remain ignorant.
Regarding spiritual things I get my understanding FROM GOD…no clue what you study or where you get your understanding.

The rapture…The first resurrection…The second resurrection ARE Spiritual Events…
If you do not KNOW which does or does not apply to you or WHY…not my dilemma.

Glory to God,
Taken
You are so full of yourself!
 

Taken

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1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


them also which sleep in Jesus
the dead in Christ shall rise first

I still don't know what you are meaning. Sleep in this context means they are physically dead back on earth, exactly what verse 16 says since that verse says they are the dead. Jesus also means Christ, right? Not that you are disagreeing with that. The point then being, it shouldn't be wrong to understand verse 14 like such---them also which are dead in Jesus. Nor should it be wrong to understand verse 16 like such--those that sleep in Christ shall rise first. It means the same thing, regardless.

A question or two for you. Verse 14 says that God will bring those that sleep in Jesus with Him.

Bring them from where? As in, where are they initially located when He brings them with Him. In order to bring them with Him He has to gather them up first from somewhere.

To then take them to where? Meaning after He brought them with Him, where does He take them to after that?


All body’s come from and return to the dust of the earth…It’s life is BLOOD and dies with the body.

All souls belong to God…it’s life is Gods Breath.

All remain living and depart out of DEAD body’s.

Saved souls are escorted to Heaven.

Unsaved souls are sent to Hell.

All humans HAVE a natural spirit, which is a individuals absolute truth in his heart.
(His carnal mind may or may not agree with the truth in his heart. His carnal mind may know the truth in his heart…yet lie, cheat, plot, etc.)

WHEN an individual CHOOSES to trust, believe, commit, and submit, promise, vow, his bodily life unto DEATH FOR the Lord God…THEN does the Lord God forgive him for having HAD not believed, SAVE his soul, AND give him a circumcised heart … ie a new heart, and Gods Seed that rebirths his natural spirit (from a mans seed) to a supernatural spiritual spirit from Gods Seed…AND then the Spirit of God….expressly the Spirit of Gods TRUTH dwells in that mans Heart….(and Christ is called IN that man)…effectively super-seeding the mans natural truth…with Gods Truth.
A body Death is required to receive salvation…HOWEVER by through, of Jesus’s DEATH….God offered men to receive their Salvation BEFORE a physical bodily death…called their submission to be “crucified with Christ Jesus”…Thereafter THEY are accounted….body, soul, spirit….WHOLE….a changed, anew creature…

It is called a living sacrifice. It is accounted accomplished….but not yet “manifested” ie. Able to be SEEN by men…WHILE they WAIT for their NEW Glorified body to be manifested….THEY ARE Occupying Christ Jesus’ RISEN BODY….and thus they are called……IN CHrist.
They are subject to be bodily raised up BY the Lord….Before the Trib…called the Rapture.

THOSE who die “IN” Jesus, have not become MADE IN CHRIST….They bodily die heartfully believing IN Jesus….but made no commitment….When they bodily die…God shall SAVE their soul and RAISE UP THEIR DEPARTED soul….to Heaven….and RAISE UP out of their grave their BODY in Glory….First Resurrection.


Everyone is not born at the same time…nor believe the same things….but every Human HAS a body, a soul, a spirit….that each part of a man will be contended with…
Some live their whole bodily life with no thought or care of their soul or their spirit.

Hope this helps..

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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