jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
They should be looking for the one who saved them, according to the scriptures. Unfortunately, some will look upon the one they pierced in unbelief when he comes again.
The six things of Daniel 9:24
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jeffweeder
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They must of. They were filled with the Holy Spirit after being washed clean.
Is it not Daniel's people whom you claim will fulfill prophecy in your indeterminate future?
If Daniel's people are confined to "the large group of Jews that shared in the Babylonian captivity with Daniel, which was around 120, 000", then Daniel's people cannot spontaneously reappear to fulfill prophecy in your indeterminate future.
They ceased to exist long ago.
As does your hypothesis.
Keraz
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I have a question for those who would insist that Paul was speaking only of Jewish believers when he referred to “the Israel of God.” Paul’s use of this expression implies that there was an Israel during his time that was not of God, which would have been national Israel (as a whole, minus the remnant of believers). It’s often insisted today that modern Israel is a continuation, or a restoration, of national Israel, which was wiped out by the Roman armies in 70 AD. If that (pre-70 AD) Israel was not of God, then why do some deceived and confused people think that national Israel today is allegedly: “God’s chosen people”, “the apple of God’s eye,” a nation that we must bless and support unconditionally, etc.?
Paul did make a distinction in Galatians 6:16, but it wasn’t between Jewish believers and non-Jewish believers. It was between “the Israel of God,” those who belong to Christ, and the Israel that was not of God, those outside of Christ. The Israel of God today still has everything to do with God’s chosen One, Jesus Christ and His faithful, born again followers.
Today, there is a few faithful Christians living in the State of Israel. The Prophecy of Isaiah 29:1-4, tells us how the Lord will make Jerusalem His fire Altar and only a remnant will survive by hiding underground.
Paul did make a distinction in Galatians 6:16, but it wasn’t between Jewish believers and non-Jewish believers. It was between “the Israel of God,” those who belong to Christ, and the Israel that was not of God, those outside of Christ. The Israel of God today still has everything to do with God’s chosen One, Jesus Christ and His faithful, born again followers.
Today, there is a few faithful Christians living in the State of Israel. The Prophecy of Isaiah 29:1-4, tells us how the Lord will make Jerusalem His fire Altar and only a remnant will survive by hiding underground.
TribulationSigns
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The Mount Sinai Covenant is NOT the covenant of Daniel 9:27. Period.
Paul was sent to be an apostle to the Gentiles. Peter an apostle to the Jews. Galatians 2:8.
So there were Gentile believers. And there were Jewish believers.
Paul, in Galatians 6 was addressing the issue that some Jewish believers in Christ were trying to impose circumcision on Gentile believers in Christ. Paul made it clear that the Gentile believers in Christ were not required to be circumcised.
In Galatians 6:16, Paul was saying that Jewish believers who did not try to impose circumcision on Gentile believers were the Israel of God.
Paul was not saying that Gentile believers combined with Jewish believers were the Israel of God.
And Paul stated... Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
The covenant that Daniel confessed that his people transgressed (in the text) in Daniel 9:11 was the Mt Sinai covenant. Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 made a law that the future leaders of Israel would remind the descendants of them coming out of Egypt of the Mt Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle, of promises made to them. i.e. confirm the covenant on a 7 year cycle..
The little horn person, who will become the prince that shall come, following the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 39, will be perceived by the Jews as their long-awaited messiah. And the person will be anointed the King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah - making the person the Antichrist.
As the Antichrist, he will confirm the Mt Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle, are required by the law Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. The confirmation process will be a big speech to the nation of Israel from the temple mount - emphasizing that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever.
Then later, about 3 years into the 7 year cycle, i.e. the 70th week of Daniel 9:27, the Antichrist (the little horn person) will as it says in Daniel 8:13 will stop the daily sacrifice and commit the transgression of desolation.
What will be the transgression ? And of what ? It will be the Antichrist (the little horn person) will stop the daily sacrifice and go into the temple, sit, and claim to have achieved God-hood.
A blatant transgression of the Mt. Sinai covenant to worship the One True God. The temple that the Jews are going to build, will thus become desolate of praise and worship of the One True God. To get even worse when the abomination of desolation is set up on the temple mount.
Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
The vision in that verse is the vision in Daniel 9:21,22,23,24. The vision is time of the end. Daniel 8:17.
Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Gabriel was speaking to Daniel in Daniel 8:17, and also Gabriel was speaking to Daniel in Daniel 9, beginning in verse 21. And continuing through the remainder of Daniel 9 about the 70 weeks.
The 70th week is still future. And involves fulfillment's of activities by the little horn person who becomes the prince that shall come following Gog/Magog (the 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9 are the 7 years of the 70th week of Daniel 9), who becomes the Antichrist, who then later becomes the revealed man of sin, who then becomes the beast-king of Revelation.
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Perhaps we should look at Daniel 9:24 in this manner/way: -
"Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To: -
a. finish the transgression, and
b. make an end of sins.
{And then after the 70 weeks of years has past} Israel, my faithful servant, i.e. Christ, will: -
1. make reconciliation for iniquity,
2. bring in everlasting righteousness,
3. seal up vision and prophecy, and
4. anoint a scared place {as being} Holy.
The 490 years was for the nation of Israel to stop their continual idolatrous worship of the first two ages of their existence by finishing the transgression by repenting of their idolatry and make an end of continuing this sin which I suggested was points a and b above.I then suggested that Christ would fulfil the points in the list from 1 to 4, all of which took just one week to accomplish after Jesus rode the colt into Jerusalem on what we would call the Saturday twilight period of the evening and ended just over seven days later with Christ's resurrection after Christ had accomplished all four listed points above.
Remember that in Exodus 20:4-6 God foretold that the idolatrous sins of the fathers during the first two ages of the existence of Israel from the time of Isaac's birth would be visited upon their children and the children's children in the third and the four age of the existence of the nation of Israel. From the time that Daniel penned Daniel 9 until the birth of Christ, around 490 years would pass.
What Christ would achieve completing the listed four items, would be completed after the construction of Herold's temple was finished, even though more work was started after Christ's death.
That is why I thought that you had presented an interesting and very different take on Daniel 9:24 which I must confess I would not readily support..
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week."
"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah" (Jeremiah 31:31)
".. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more." (Jeremiah 31:33-34).
"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for MANY for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28).
Daniel 9:27 "And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease."
Isaiah 1:11-17
"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? says the LORD; I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
When you come to appear before Me, who has required this at your hand, to trample My courts?
Bring no more vain sacrifice; incense is an abomination to Me; the new moon and sabbath, the going to meeting; I cannot endure evil and the assembly! Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; they are a trouble to Me; I am weary to bear them.
And when you spread out your hands, I will hide My eyes from you; yea, when you make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.
Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do good; seek judgment, reprove the oppressor. Judge the orphan, plead for the widow.
Hebrews 10:8-10
"Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
And in the 70th week (i.e after the 69th week), Messiah be cut off, but not for himself. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it (the sanctuary) desolate."
The reason why the Romans destroyed the temple was not because of anything they regarded as an abomination or as "the overspreading of abominations". The Messiah was one who was ultimately making it desolate - using the Roman armies.
"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah" (Jeremiah 31:31)
".. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more." (Jeremiah 31:33-34).
"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for MANY for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28).
Daniel 9:27 "And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease."
Isaiah 1:11-17
"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? says the LORD; I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
When you come to appear before Me, who has required this at your hand, to trample My courts?
Bring no more vain sacrifice; incense is an abomination to Me; the new moon and sabbath, the going to meeting; I cannot endure evil and the assembly! Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; they are a trouble to Me; I am weary to bear them.
And when you spread out your hands, I will hide My eyes from you; yea, when you make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.
Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do good; seek judgment, reprove the oppressor. Judge the orphan, plead for the widow.
Hebrews 10:8-10
"Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
And in the 70th week (i.e after the 69th week), Messiah be cut off, but not for himself. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it (the sanctuary) desolate."
The reason why the Romans destroyed the temple was not because of anything they regarded as an abomination or as "the overspreading of abominations". The Messiah was one who was ultimately making it desolate - using the Roman armies.
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No, it does not say in the text "in the 70th week" messiah shall be cutoff.
What is the vision - in Daniel 9:21,22,23, 24 ?
The prince that shall come shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I agree - but not for the same reason.
When Christ was cut off in the middle of the 70th week, it was because the people who He had come to save from their enemies had caused Him to be cut off.
As a result He died for their sins, becoming what today's Rabbis call "Messiah ben Yosef".
But the week was not completed, because He was cut off in the middle of the 70th week. So He did not complete the prophecies that are associated with the "Messiah ben David" title that the Rabbis call the Messiah by.
The man of sin will claim to be God. We read of a beast reigning for 42 months.
The prophecies regarding the first half of the 70th week have been fulfilled.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
It does.
When Christ was cut off in the middle of the 70th week, it was because the people who He had come to save from their enemies had caused Him to be cut off.
As a result He died for their sins, becoming what today's Rabbis call "Messiah ben Yosef".
But the week was not completed, because He was cut off in the middle of the 70th week. So He did not complete the prophecies that are associated with the "Messiah ben David" title that the Rabbis call the Messiah by.
The man of sin will claim to be God. We read of a beast reigning for 42 months.
The prophecies regarding the first half of the 70th week have been fulfilled. It's the final 42 months that have not been fulfilled, although the 70th week has been completed in time (just not ALL the prophecies associated with it)
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
In John 12:12-15, Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, riding a donkey, hailed as he King of Israel. 69 weeks unto messiah.
Four days later was crucified. After 62 weeks (plus 7 weeks) was cutoff.
Then a break following the messiah cutoff - as the city and sanctuary are destroyed. By the people of the prince that shall come, i.e. the Romans. 70 AD.
The 70th week does not begin until the prince that shall come confirms the covenant for 7 years. That prince will be the little horn person.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Which is mathematically impossible because Jesus' ministry lasted 3.5 years counting from the week after the 69th week.
The 70th week is included in verse 24, not excluded from it.
The length, nor the beginning, of the messiah's ministry is not mentioned in Daniel 9.
What is the vision in Daniel 9:21,22,23,24 ?
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Well you don't have to look far to find it.
Ever read the New Testament?
These were accomplished in the 70th week: to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Jesus was Baptized 3.5 years before His crucifixion, which fulfilled the rest.
Since you correctly state that neither the length, nor the beginning, of the messiah's ministry is mentioned in Daniel 9, how can you in the same breath assert that He was baptized in the middle of the 69th week and crucified 4 days into the 70th week?
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Thank you for your interpretation. I have seen others that also share your interpretation..... so you are certainly not alone! I, however, am sitting alone but I feel comfortable with a little different interpretation. Please consider the following - it is a relatively short piece cut out from my commentary that was just released:
24a-70 weeks are determined
24b-for your people and your holy city
Gabriel begins the Lord’s interpretation by telling Daniel that seventy weeks (weeks of years, or 490 years) are determined for his people and his holy city. This introduction sets the stage for the prophecy by establishing a clear timeframe and focus. To understand why God has Gabriel start the prophecy this way, it's helpful to reflect on earlier chapters of Daniel—specifically chapters 2, 7, and 8. In those chapters, the Lord provided dreams and visions in two parts: first the dream sequence, followed by a more detailed interpretation sequence. Therefore, it is appropriate to approach Chapter 9 in a similar fashion.
In the first two verses (24a and b), Gabriel outlines the external borders or boundaries for this prophecy. He defines the "time" boundary as seventy weeks. Unlike Chapter 2, which describes four physical kingdoms, Chapter 9 reveals three separate yet consecutive time periods of 7, 62, and 1 week, making up the 70 weeks. This structured approach helps Daniel and future readers to understand the prophecy in a clear and organized manner. He also confirm this prophecy is directed and relevant to his people and his holy city (Daniel’s). Thus, it is restricted to the Jews and the city before the arrival of the Messiah. It is not meant to be sent forward some 2000 years; this is meant for “Daniel’s people and city.”
Within these verses, Daniel will record both the restorative and destructive events / prophecies that are specifically meant for the Jews. Consequently, when the Jews return to Jerusalem, the visions—the chazon and the mareh, as well as the Chapter 9 prophecy—will no longer be "shut up" or "sealed." These prophecies are intended for the Jews to read, study, and interpret along with the rest of the messianic prophecies found in the Tanakh before the coming of their Messiah. The clear timeline and detailed events provided in these prophecies would serve as a guide for them to recognize and understand the fulfillment of God's plan for their salvation and restoration. By setting these boundaries and focusing on the specific timeframes, Gabriel ensures that the prophecies are accessible and comprehensible to those for whom they were intended.
From a literal perspective, every article of the Sanctuary must be restored; the Temple would need to be rebuilt along with the city and its walls. The Jews would return from Babylon and reinstate their holy ceremonies, practices, and seven holy festivals. They would restore their way of life as it was before the Babylonian destruction, completing everything in the reverse order in which it was destroyed or taken away. There is a definite purpose for dividing these seventy-weeks-of-years into three distinct sections: seven weeks (49 literal years), sixty-two weeks (434 literal years), and the final period of one week (7 literal years). The first and third sections will have their own mission of restoration, and those assigned to complete their part in the restoration process. There will not be a restorative mission assigned to the longest timed section of 62 weeks or 434 literal years. However, this turns out to be a very effective way of ensuring the three sections cannot be separated, and indeed reflect a consecutive series of events that take place within the defined external borders. God will ensure that all restorative elements are completed before the Messiah is baptized in the Jordan. Consequently, the restorative verses of 9:24-25 must take place before the destructive verses of 9:26-27 occur. This sequence is clearly illustrated in verses 9:25 and 9:26. Both verses use the middle section of the 62 weeks to confirm both the arrival of the Messiah and His crucifixion, all occurring within the final week of the prophecy. Accordingly, the final article—the Ark of the Covenant, which was the first article taken away by Jeremiah from the Holy of Holies—would be the last piece of furniture to be restored in the Temple. It would be restored on the first day of the seventieth week of Daniel’s seventy-weeks-of-years prophecy, symbolizing the return of the Presence of God to its rightful place. God did not permit the Babylonians to take away the Ark of the Covenant, and similarly, He would not allow man to take the life of the Messiah. In John 10:17–18, Jesus states:
17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
God had designed His plan of salvation for all of mankind. It was designed so that salvation would come through the Jews. But Israel did not go to the ends of the earth preaching the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to the Gentile nations, but kept Him to themselves. When their Messiah arrived, they rejected Him. But despite this terrible transgression, salvation would still come through the Jews, but He would send His Holy Spirit to each and every one who has placed their faith in the Messiah, Jesus. God's plan of salvation, while designed to be fulfilled through the Jews, extended beyond the immediate timeline. Although Jesus fulfilled His mission as outlined in Daniel 9:24 and established His kingdom on earth, its complete realization awaited His return to the Father and His second coming. This means that instead of an immediate and complete fulfillment, God implemented an already, but not yet, plan of salvation that would continue for another 2000 years.
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