The six things of Daniel 9:24
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Another point is that neither the people of the prince who would come and destroy the city and sanctuary, nor the destruction of the city and the sanctuary, are the subject of verses 24-25 and the 70 weeks.
Daniel was in Babylon when he received the prophecy, and at the time the city and sanctuary both still lay in ruins. But here in verses 24-25 Daniel is being told that the city and the sanctuary will be rebuilt, only to be told in verses 26b and 27b that both will be destroyed again - but without any date or 70 weeks timeline being given as to when that next destruction of city and tabernacle would occur.
The 70 weeks in verses 24-25 is about the coming of the Messiah only. The destruction of city and tabernacle are not mentioned in verses 24-25. The prophecy does not date or give a timeline for that next destruction of city and sanctuary.
I did not say anything about Jesus's baptism, Nor 4 days into the 70th week.
Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, hailed as the King of Israel, that comes in the name of the Lord, in John 12:12-15. 4 days later, he was crucified.
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
The same angel who told Daniel that the sanctuary would be defiled before the Messiah came. The sanctuary still lay in ruins at the time Daniel received the prophecy.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
The same angel who told Daniel that the sanctuary would be defiled before the Messiah came. The sanctuary still lay in ruins at the time Daniel received the prophecy.
I'm not telling you his name because you are asking me stupid questions, deliberately.
Note: In the text of Daniel, Daniel 8:11 and Daniel 11:31 are linked to both:-
(a) daily sacrifices for sin being removed in the temple of God; and
(b) an abomination of desolation being placed in the holy place in the temple.
We need to know and understand that (a) history; and (b) the book of Maccabees in the Apocrypha; and (c) the 1st century Jewish historian Josephus all link Daniel 8:11 and Daniel 11:31 to Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes" and to the second century, BC.
The Jews' festival of Hanukkah is based on this history.
We should also take note that Daniel 12:11-12 ALSO links the 1,290 days and 1,335 days that the verses are talking about, to both:-
(1) daily sacrifices for sin being removed in the temple of God; and
(2) an abomination of desolation being placed in the holy place in the temple.
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"'Abomination of Desolation' is a phrase from the Book of Daniel describing the pagan sacrifices with which the 2nd century BC Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes replaced the twice-daily offering in the Jewish temple, or alternatively the altar on which such offerings were made."(Abomination of desolation - Wikipedia)
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BIBLICAL AND HISTORICAL FACTS
Not destroyed:
(i) The abomination of desolation (singular) set up by Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes" in 167 BC in the holy place of the 2nd temple in Jerusalem, is not associated with the destruction of either the city of Jerusalem, or of the temple in it: After he was ousted by the Maccabees, the temple was cleansed, and reconsecrated to God.
This took place around 236 years before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jerusalem temple in 70 A.D.
Destroyed:
(ii) Daniel 9:26-27 prophesied that abominations (plural) were going to be committed that the text associates with the destruction of the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the temple).
Note: If you are not fair to biblical and historical facts by acknowledging them, you will always wind up misinterpreting prophetic scripture.
Have you changed your mind about some of this recently? Whenever I proposed pretty much the same thing you appeared to be adamantly opposed to what I was proposing. Or at least that's how you came across to me at the time.
To me it makes perfect sense that Christ fulfilled the first half including the middle, then a gap until it is time for the beast to ascend out of the pit, and then this beast fulfilling the 2nd half which still involves Christ. But not His first coming, His 2nd coming. The first half involved His 1st coming, the 2nd half involves His 2nd coming. And why not?
It's not like there are not two comings of Christ, one when He was born, and another one in the end of this age at the end of the beast's 42 month reign. And besides, how can everlasting righteousness have already been brought in when there is still this beast that makes himself out to be God to contend with first? I would think everlasting righteousness fits the new heavens new earth, not this present age instead. After all, something everlasting can't possibly fit something that has an end eventually, such as this current age.
I agree. The four verses in 9:24-27 might be thought of as being given as the first two (24-25) represent the "restorative" verses within this prophecy. But in 26-27, Gabriel gives us the "destructive" verses.
The "restorative" verses reveals the timing of those elements that will be fulfilled. It reveals what are the exact elements of the restoration process will be fulfilled. It also reveals the person (s) who are responsible for fulfilling those identified elements:
Only the first and third timed sections are given by Gabriel - the first 49 years and the last 7 years. These two bookends of the prophecies tie the entire 70 weeks together - obviously meaning there is no gap or time between the 70 year prophecy.
The Jews are responsible for fulfilling all the elements that were destroyed or taken away by the Babylonians in the first timed section of 49 years. This will include EVERY piece of the furniture found within the Sanctuary as well as the Temple, the walls, the streets, etc.
However, the ONLY element within the Sanctuary they could not restore is the Ark of the Covenant. Thus, this would be assigned to be fulfilled by the only One who could fulfill it - the Messiah who would arrive only after all the other elements were fulfilled / restored. Which is why He would arrive on the first day of the last week to fulfill His God given missions. So, the "restorative" verses are all "time stamped" if you will, but the "destsructive verses which reveal the destruction of those same elements are not given a "time stamp" with the exception of the crucifixion of the Messiah. However, I believe this is indeed purposeful. Jesus would arrive in the last week of the prophecy and He would be our High Priest, our Passover Lamb, our Temple, the Bread of Life, the Light of the World, --- in other words, He would represent every piece of furniture within the Sanctuary including the holy Temple. In the "destructive" verse where Gabriel tells us He will be "cut off" in the "midst of the week," or exactly 3.5 years of the last 7 years, it is telling us that ALL of these elements are indeed destroyed at the same time as the time of the cross. Gabriel will also reveal the literal destruction of the city and the sanctuary and identify the prince of the people who is to come who will destroy everything in 70 AD, but after the cross, these are no longer holy or have any holy significance remaining - they are just structures. Just as the perfect sacrifice of our Messiah had done away with any further need for animal sacrifices and offerings, His death would also symbolize the timing of the destruction of the physical elements that were restored after Babylon.
Please see above.
Please see above.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
You were linking the destruction of city and temple mentioned in verses 26-27 to the desolation of a New Testament Temple at the close of this age, and to the second half of the 70th week.
I still disagree with that. The city and temple's destruction or desolation mentioned in verses 26b and 27b are not mentioned in the 70 weeks prophecy in verses 24-25. The city and temple's destruction or desolation mentioned in verses 26b and 27b wer not dated by the prophecy or given a 70 weeks timeline - only the coming of the Messiah was dated and given a timeline of 70 weeks in verses 24-25.
I realized the following through watching Jewish Christians in Israel sharing the gospel with Jews in Israel, and mentioning that many Rabbis acknowledge that according to Daniel 9:24-27, Messiah would come before the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD,
and also the fact that many of the Rabbis have this idea that there are two Messiahs because one is prophesied to be a suffering servant who would die for the people (Messiah ben Yosef),
and the other is prophesied to be the King who would save Israel from their enemies, destroying them (Messiah ben David),
and these Jewish Christians were telling the Jews they were talking to that they (the Jewish Christians) believe He is one Messiah who came and died for the people, and is coming again and will take up His reign when He comes back as Messiah ben David.
The city and temple were destroyed in 70 AD. We know this is historical fact.
But we also know that Messiah did not get to complete everything that was prophesied about what He would accomplish.
So in that sense, yes. I realized while watching the Jewish evangelists that it's because Jesus was cut off by the people in the middle of the 70th week that:
(a) in the process He fulfilled the suffering servant prophecies regarding Him dying for the people; and
(b) Could not at that time continue and fulfill all the other prophecies.
Yes. We now agree on the above, despite which city & temple is being mentioned in Daniel 9:26-27 and the timing for its destruction.
But at the same time, time did not stand still in the middle of the final week circa AD30 or AD33 and time has not been standing still since then until now. Time marches on. The rest of the 70th week marched on also - just the prophecies were not all fulfilled, and so will still be fulfilled when He comes back.
I see Christ as being "the LORD our righteousness" now, so in that sense He has already brought in everlasting righteousness - because He is righteous and He lived a perfectly righteous life and He took our sins upon Himself and died and rose again.
His Kingdom has come in that it is in those in whom His Spirit dwells, but His Kingdom is coming. Same with the everlasting righteousness that He brought, IMO.
I had asked you what the vision is in Daniel 9:21, 22, 23, 24. You turn around and asked me where was Daniel when the angel touched him. So I asked you who the angel was. Why can't you say it was Gabriel ?
I am trying to get you to say what the vision is that is found Daniel 9:21, 22, 23, 24 that will be fulfilled within the 70 weeks.
The little horn person is time of the end and will stand up against the Prince of princes, but will be broken not by human means. He will commit the transgression of desolation.
It is not talking about Antiochus IV because Antiochus IV was not time of the end, and did not commit the transgression of desolation.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I agree with all the above, and especially with the part I highlight below - which I have highlighted because there are some in these boards who (believe it or not) would argue against what you say below:
Not every one who says He believes in Christ believes the above which I highlighted in red.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
There is no 70 weeks mentioned in Daniel 9:21-23. What are you talking about? Daniel is given prophetic information about 70 weeks and the coming of the Messiah only from verse 24.
Your imagination seems to be running away with you. Verses 21-23 are background information leading to Daniel receiving the prophecy. I don't know how do you read scripture, Doug, but it sure is unique sometimes.
@Douggg The matter and the vision Gabriel was talking about was what Daniel was about to be told about, not about anything he had already been told about.
When you ask questions like that, your questions are only wise in your own eyes.
Daniel is such a very difficult book to interpret. And if you look at "today's accepted interpretations," they all apply a "historical" approach to deteremine their interpretations. Meaning, they confirm, compare and attempt to identify those actors and events that actually took place within our history books and then match them to the prophecies in Daniel. But Daniel is not a history book merely recounting our historical events. This is why I contend that the only book that is needed to interpret Daniel is the Book of Daniel (and there are certainly those passages in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Deuteronomy, etc., that connect directly to Daniel... but absolutely NO extra-biblical records after the time of the Messiah are NEEDED to properly interpret Daniel. It was written for Daniel's people and his city after their return from Babylon. God would ensure there was everything His people would need within the Book of Daniel and the Tanakh for them to read, study and interpret Daniel prior to His first coming. Revelation nor any Gentile history books at that time were available or needed to accuarately interpret the prophecies within Daniel.... As a matter of fact, those who bring in or look to extrabiblical source records have come to rely on what they contend the prophecies in Daniel are speaking about and their timing. When they cannot find actors or events in their history books to match up they throw the prophecies some 2000 years in the future......when they are indeed speaking about the time of the Messiah and His first coming ----- Chapter 11 is all about the 4th kingdom at the time of the Messiah and after.... not anyone after Alexander and before pagan Rome.
What vision is this ?
Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I disagree about chapter 11 but as you say there is only one correct interpretation of Daniel (and any prophetic book) and though each one of us may individually believe it's ourselves who have it, yet not one of us agrees with everything another one says,
meaning none of us - not one of us - really understands, so .. I think it's honest to look at history though. There is a reason why the Jews still hold that festival of Hanukkah today.
I understand but there is also a reason why the Jews reject Jesus and expect His first coming in the future. It would take so long to go into Chapter 11... but Chapter 11 is also written for His people and His city.... but I AGREE WITH YOU THAT 99.99% of our interpretations follow your thoughts and interpretations.... they follow or look to our history books....
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Likewise, 99.99% of your own interpretations follow your own thoughts, so whether your thoughts or mine, or the 99% you mention, the point at which we don't agree and start diverging in interpretation is the point at which we will continue to disagree, and my experience has taught me that it's better to simply say, "I disagree" and then to stop discussing the disagreement points because it leads to all kinds of unnecessary words which still don't bring agreement or more understanding to the parties involved, and is just fruitless.
I like it when someone tells me he does not disagree and why but if we we still disagree then there's no point because the next step is for someone to tell someone "why he's wrong" or use words which imply not very complimentary things - and it's fruitless.
So I hope you don't mind if I step out of the discussion with you - and by the way, I haven't heard many people say like I do that the legs of iron in Daniel chapter 2 do not refer to the Roman Empire, so I'm not too sure about the 99%. I think the 99% agree with you about that.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
You're asking the wrong question. The question is what angel is this?
And Daniel identifies him as the angel whom he had seen in the first vision - Daniel is not identifying the first vision as having anything to do with what is about to be revealed regarding the 70 weeks and the coming of the Messiah. He is only identifying which angel is about to reveal something to him.
This:
"therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision"
is talking about what Daniel is about to be told, not about what he had previously seen or had been told about.
In what first vision ?
Hard to get answers from you. The vision that Gabriel first appeared to Daniel was in Daniel 8 about the vision of the time of the end little horn and the 2300 days of the little horn's activities of stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation - which the 70th week would therefore be still future, as that vision has not been fulfilled.
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In Danial the sacrifice is switched could the meaning be the Antichrist will Claim to be the sacrifice itself replacing Jesus as the sacrifice.The sacrifice would sit for 1290 days which is 3 and half years.
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