The Prophetic Timeline: Why Jesuit Futurists/Jesuit Preterists Ignore It

[Zao is life]

Satan does not have 7 heads.

And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads! -- Rev 12:3

So tell John he misheard, if you like. But I believe John, firstly because I believe scripture, and secondly because I've seen how you make it up as you go along.

 

[Timtofly]

And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads! -- Rev 12:3

So tell John he misheard, if you like. But I believe John, firstly because I believe scripture, and secondly because I've seen how you make it up as you go along.

No, I use the point that Daniel 2 was part of what John was describing. You claim Satan was a literal dragon with 7 heads.

John was describing the relationship of Satan with those kingdoms throughout time, then he called that historical view a dragon with 7 heads. John also mentioned the angels who left their first estate and placed into the pit in chains of darkness.

John explains himself:

"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

What is the last name mentioned? Do the other terms describe Satan as adjectives? Or are the last 3, describing a literal dragon?

Was the original serpent actually a dragon who was cursed , and lost use of the legs? Perhaps Satan has taken the form of a dragon to appear on the earth? The point of symbolism is to describe a point that John was actually seeing. Why do you all think John actually saw a dragon with 7 heads?

John wrote using symbolism. John wrote what he saw in the past, the present, and the future. Revelation 12 contains the past, present, and future and not a literal dragon.

 

[David in NJ]

Daniel chapter 2 is the foundational eschatological template upon which rests the entire Biblical prophetic timeline. It is here God shows us the Four major world empires - Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome - with Rome divided into the Ten Kingdoms which evolve into Europe, the divisions of which are followed by the eventual Second Coming of Jesus.

It is imperative we do not depart from this template, nor go beyond the minute alterations God shows us through subsequent prophetic revelations. For example, Daniel 7 subsequently reveals through the description of the Ten Horns (which are identical to the Ten Toes) that the Ten Toes do not all survive until the Second Coming - three are uprooted by the Little Horn which arises among the Ten Horns. Unfortunately, Jesuit Futurists and Jesuit Preterists in Protestant sheep's clothing expose themselves as the papal sympathizers they are by willful departure from the Biblical prophetic timeline into the realm of bazarre Jesuit eschatological nonsense. Examples:

• prophecy is to be "of no private interpretation" and we must ask the "holy men" of Scripture what the prophetic symbolism means - popular Jesuit nonsense relies on newspaper headlines for interpretation.

• the lopsided two horn divisions of the Ram (MP) are "guideposts" ensuring posterity recognizes it to indeed be the MP empire which eventually merged into the one - they don't establish additional kingdoms/rulers which contradicts the Daniel 2 template.

• the four horn divisions of the He Goat (Greece) are "guideposts" ensuring posterity recognizes it to indeed be the Greek empire which eventually evolved into four smaller kingdoms of the same empire - they don't establish a "fifth empire" or any such nonsense which contradicts the Daniel 2 template.

• the kingdoms all follow each other in quick succession - there are no "gaps" between them, which is paramount to a correct understanding of the timing of the rise of the "Little Horn" in Daniel 7.

• the two legs of the Image (Rome) are "guideposts" ensuring posterity recognizes it to indeed be the Roman Empire which eventually fell - both to the "Ten Toes" barbarians in the West and into total insignificance, eschatologically speaking, in the East. Jesuit Futurist nonsense has some foolishly arguing Rome is still here, therefore, the 6th century papal Antichrist of Protestant Historicism is not valid - but this false dichotomy between "Rome and Rome" ends at the bottom of the Image with the 5 Toes on each foot comprising the Ten Toes of the barbarian tribes which evolved into Europe.

Protestant Historicism is the only eschatological interpretation that remains Biblically consistent with the Biblical prophetic timeline from beginning to end. It requires no "prophetic rubber bands" to stretch prophecy across thousands of years "gaps" on the prophetic timeline. It requires no willful ignorance of historic facts such as what the ECFs claim was taught by Paul and the early church concerning the "restrainer". It requires no inconsistent interpretations of symbolism such as making the 70 Weeks over here symbolic but the 2300 Days over there literal.

It does, however, require three things the Jesuit Futurist and Jesuit Preterist crowds appear to lack: an accurate knowledge of Scripture, a knowledge of unrevised history, and common sense.

the divisions of which are followed by the eventual Second Coming of Jesus.

You need to correct the above statement.

The Second Coming of Christ is AFTER the "Ten Toes" of Daniel ch2

Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly [m]fragile. 43As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall [n]break in pieces and [o]consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”

 

[Zao is life]

You claim Satan was a literal dragon with 7 heads.

No I don't. And you know it.

Not going to debate this point with you anymore. You claimed that Satan (the dragon) is the seventh head of the beast - so Satan gives Satan his seat, his power and all his authority.

The dragon is the dragon in the Revelation, Tim. The dragon, the whole dragon, and nothing but the dragon.

The dragon is Satan.

The beast is the beast.

No point in arguing in circles.

 

[Timtofly]

No I don't. And you know it.

Not going to debate this point with you anymore. You claimed that Satan (the dragon) is the seventh head of the beast - so Satan gives Satan his seat, his power and all his authority.

The dragon is the dragon in the Revelation, Tim. The dragon, the whole dragon, and nothing but the dragon.

The dragon is Satan.

The beast is the beast.

No point in arguing in circles.

The dragon is symbolism of 7 empires. Satan is the 7th head, but the 8th empire.

God gives all human empires permission to be in authority.

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast."

"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,"

Satan exercises all the same power, as it was his power to start with through all those earthly empires throughout time starting with Babylon. And that is only by God's permission to begin with as we understand from Job.

Both the dragon and beast are symbolism. Not literal. This is humanity and Satan working together. The other 6 heads are not seperate, but part of the dragon. The 7th head of the beast is not seperate, but still in conjunction with human authority.

Satan is not even attributed to the dragon until Revelation 20, when he is bound in the pit. The dragon is not bound, but Satan for a thousand years.

The symbolism of these three beast (dragon, sea beast, scarlet colored beast) is about human government. Beasts represent kingdoms not human individuals. The heads represent the major kingdoms from Daniel until now. The horns would be individual humans, but they are not past humans, but future. The only other individual is Satan, along with a person referenced as the false prophet.

 

[Phoneman777]

You need to correct the above statement.

The Second Coming of Christ is AFTER the "Ten Toes" of Daniel ch2

Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly [m]fragile. 43As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall [n]break in pieces and [o]consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”

I absolutely believe the Ten Toes arise before the Second Coming, because both the Ten Toes and the Ten Horns represent the rise of the barbarian tribes which arose out of the ashes of the Roman Empire.

 

[David in NJ]

I absolutely believe the Ten Toes arise before the Second Coming, because both the Ten Toes and the Ten Horns represent the rise of the barbarian tribes which arose out of the ashes of the Roman Empire.

Good late Morning,

You are 100% CORRECT

My wording/sentence was incorrect.

The 10 Toes is in full authority at His Second Coming.

Daniel 2:45 - Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”

 

[CTK]

I absolutely believe the Ten Toes arise before the Second Coming, because both the Ten Toes and the Ten Horns represent the rise of the barbarian tribes which arose out of the ashes of the Roman Empire.

If I might add my 2 cents to this... I would ask that you might consider the 10 toes are the same as the 10 horns and are the same as the 10 kings and are the same as the Saints of the Most High in Chapter 8.

The Chapter 2 metal man image gave us the "blueprints" of the four kingdoms that God would bring out of the sea. There are these 4 and only 4. Also, each body part of the metal man and the associated metal type is purposeful. It establishes the internal borders and boundaries for each of the 4 kingdoms, while the metal man image from head to toes represent the external kingdoms that will come upon the earth. God has given us these restrictions, guidllines so our interpretations will be found within them. Each of these 4 kingdoms will have their own actors and events that will take place and there is no bleeding over to the next kingdom. This is purposeful so we must honor His guidlines and boundaries. But what I believe has also been designed within Daniel is the following: Just as God has given us the only 4 kingdoms in Chapter 2, He has also given or used different symbols for each of the 4 kingdoms in the latter chapters of Daniel (especially 7 and 8), however, the number and identities of the 4 kingdoms will never change - God will use different symbols to provide us with additional characteristics and attrributes so we can identify them and also learn their mission in His plan of salvation.

This is important because God is alsos using this same method to reveal the different characteristics and attributes of the 10 toes / horns / kings / Sainst of the Most High. Just like the 4 kingdoms, these 10 are the same entity but they are presented differently as time moves forward through those kingdoms.

So, here is an important point... the 10 toes in Chapter 2 were sitting at the end of the feet that was part of pagan Rome. In Chapter 7, they are no longer found within the feet but are now outside of the 4th kingdom beast of pagan Rome and they are "coming out of or out from the 4th beast kingdom,: and are being referred to as 10 horns (powers). Later, they will be found at the top of the 4th beast kingdom and Daniel now refers to them as 10 kings. And, then they will also be referred to later on as the Saints of the Most High.

So, what is going on? And since the 10 toes were in existence while they were within the feet of pagan Rome, and pagan Rome was slain and its body was destroyed (7:11), then the 10 toes had to be in existence before their destruction which occurred around 476 AD.

What do you think?

 

[Douggg]

So, what is going on? And since the 10 toes were in existence while they were within the feet of pagan Rome, and pagan Rome was slain and its body was destroyed (7:11), then the 10 toes had to be in existence before their destruction which occurred around 476 AD.

CTK, I think you need to study Revelation 17. The ten toes, i.e. ten kings, are in Revelation 17, but are represented as ten horns on the beast image in Revelation 17, 12, 13.

The woman turned prostitute in Revelation 17, appears to be the Vatican, located in Rome, i.e. papal Rome, Revelation 17:9, and having influence around the world, Revelation 17:15.

Those end times ten kings hate the woman turned prostitute and destroy her with fire, i.e. they burn the Vatican to the ground. Papal Rome, no more.

 

[Douggg]

absolutely believe the Ten Toes arise before the Second Coming, because both the Ten Toes and the Ten Horns represent the rise of the barbarian tribes which arose out of the ashes of the Roman Empire.

Not barbarian tribes. The ten toes (in Daniel 2) represented by the ten horns ( in Revelation) are ten kings of the end times. They will be kings, i.e. a group of leaders of the EU, the manifestation of the Roman Empire in the end times.

 

[CTK]

CTK, I think you need to study Revelation 17. The ten toes, i.e. ten kings, are in Revelation 17, but are represented as ten horns on the beast image in Revelation 17, 12, 13.

The woman turned prostitute in Revelation 17, appears to be the Vatican, located in Rome, i.e. papal Rome, Revelation 17:9, and having influence around the world, Revelation 17:15.

Those end times ten kings hate the woman turned prostitute and destroy her with fire, i.e. they burn the Vatican to the ground. Papal Rome, no more.

Dougg, you can’t throw all of Daniel 2000 years into the future! You are trying to interpret Daniel through Revelation.
Try and interpret Daniel … close the Book of Revelation… the Jews who returned from Babylon did not have access to Revelation. Daniel really does interpret Daniel —— if you try.

 

[Phoneman777]

So, here is an important point... the 10 toes in Chapter 2 were sitting at the end of the feet that was part of pagan Rome. In Chapter 7, they are no longer found within the feet but are now outside of the 4th kingdom beast of pagan Rome and they are "coming out of or out from the 4th beast kingdom,: and are being referred to as 10 horns (powers). Later, they will be found at the top of the 4th beast kingdom and Daniel now refers to them as 10 kings. And, then they will also be referred to later on as the Saints of the Most High.

I understand the horns and toes are what remains after Rome falls - the barbarians who morphed into Europe and continue to our day and to the return of Jesus, evolving into what we see today.

So, what is going on? And since the 10 toes were in existence while they were within the feet of pagan Rome, and pagan Rome was slain and its body was destroyed (7:11), then the 10 toes had to be in existence before their destruction which occurred around 476 AD.

What do you think?

Seems to me since it says "feet and toes" that denotes one single prophetic element coming after the Roman "legs" (thus, disqualifying the "feet" as Roman) and repeated again in chapter 7 as the "Ten Horns".

The space between where the Roman legs end and the Ten Barbarian Toes begin need not be seen as introducing another kingdom, but as part of the Ten Toes "barbarian tribes, the area merely points out the "separateness" of the Ten which are "divided, partly strong, partly weak, not cleaving one to another".

 

[Phoneman777]

Not barbarian tribes. The ten toes (in Daniel 2) represented by the ten horns ( in Revelation) are ten kings of the end times. They will be kings, i.e. a group of leaders of the EU, the manifestation of the Roman Empire in the end times.

Before the truth of Protestant Historicism, the ECFs taught the Ten Toes and Ten Horns were the same kingdoms, so.....

 

[Douggg]

Before the truth of Protestant Historicism, the ECFs taught the Ten Toes and Ten Horns were the same kingdoms, so.....

The ten toes and ten horns are ten kings, i.e. ten men.

In Revelation 13:1, the ten horns have crowns, meaning the ten kings will be ruling with the beast-king for one hour (figurative for the 42 months in Revelation 13:5).

In Revelation 17:17 the ten kings give their kingdom (singular) over to the beast. The ten kings of ten EU nation-states will hand the EU over to the beast to become dictator of the EU. Thus, becoming the beast-king.

The EU will be the kingdom of the beast.

 

[Phoneman777]

The ten toes and ten horns are ten kings, i.e. ten men.

In Revelation 13:1, the ten horns have crowns, meaning the ten kings will be ruling with the beast-king for one hour (figurative for the 42 months in Revelation 13:5).

In Revelation 17:17 the ten kings give their kingdom (singular) over to the beast. The ten kings of ten EU nation-states will hand the EU over to the beast to become dictator of the EU. Thus, becoming the beast-king.

The EU will be the kingdom of the beast.

TBH, the "ten kings" of Revelation might point to the Club of Rome's "Ten Economic Centers" of which they'd divided up the planet in the coming NWO. But, that would make them distinct from the Ten Toes/Ten Horns.

My favorite preacher talks about the audacity of puny man to be so blinded by Satan as to think he can meet God on the battlefield. They've been the recipients of "unmixed mercy" for so long, they're high on Divine Patience.

Pastor C. D. Brooks always said, "You can't fight God...your arms are too short!" ;)

 

[CTK]

I understand the horns and toes are what remains after Rome falls - the barbarians who morphed into Europe and continue to our day and to the return of Jesus, evolving into what we see today.

Seems to me since it says "feet and toes" that denotes one single prophetic element coming after the Roman "legs" (thus, disqualifying the "feet" as Roman) and repeated again in chapter 7 as the "Ten Horns".

The space between where the Roman legs end and the Ten Barbarian Toes begin need not be seen as introducing another kingdom, but as part of the Ten Toes "barbarian tribes, the area merely points out the "separateness" of the Ten which are "divided, partly strong, partly weak, not cleaving one to another".

Thank you for your thoughts ... they are indeed inciteful. If we focus on the feet and toes in Chapter 2, do you agree that the legs of iron AND THE FEET represent the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome?

And if that might be true, then we also have an additional element found within the feet of pagan Rome. They will be disclosed as a "ceramic" like clay that will not mix with the iron... And if you notice, in the dream sequence, Nebuchadnezzar never mentions anything about the toes or the type of clay in the feet. It is as though the ceramic clay and the iron were encasing or completely covering over any sight of the individual toes. It is only during Daniel's interpretation sequence when he discloses the type of clay. There are more than a few interpretations to find here; the individual toes, whatever they are will not have been recognized as having any importance to him - he just won't see or acknowledge them, and, this 4th kingdom of pagan Rome will do to these "clay" entities the same thing they do to any other nation they conquer - they will overpower them and encase them and subjugate every part of their lives. They will symbolically not have a chance to move from the absoluty control of pagan Rome.

And this is one of the most critical verses in Daniel - if we get this wrong, there is absolutely no chance our interpretations of Chapters 7-12 will ever be properly interpreted.

And the key to this is found in verse 2:34-35. Everyone, and I do mean everyone, regardless of whether they are preterist or futurist, contend that verse 34 and 35 happen at the exact same time - at the time of the end or His second coming. Further, they also claim that this "stone" will strike the feet (not the toes) and break the entire image and destroy it and throw it into the wind.... again, this all is to occur at His second coming.

But this is not the correct interpretation. Instead, it is the Messiah at His first coming who represents the stone that will stike the image on its feet OF IRON AND CLAY, and break them into pieces. Meaning, the stone will break apart only the two components found within the feet - those of iron and clay only. He did not come to destroy but to divide. However, verse 2:35 is indeed speaking about the true end times some 2000 years after 2:34.

So now, the stone (cross) has separated the iron from the clay (and notice the order - the iron of pagan Rome is given the superior position here). Within Daniel's interpretation, he will reveal a "divided" kingdom that is now composed of "partially clay and iron, in that order." This second beast kingdom of Rome will come after pagan Rome is slain and its body is destroyed (7:11). This "divided" kingdom will become known as papal Rome headed by the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. But the purpose of the stone striking the feet was to separate the "clay" from the control of pagan Rome. But even more important, God would also, as a direct result of the cross, separate the "ceramic clay" (those Jews who would not accept Jesus as their Messiah) from the "pottery clay" (those Jews that Jesus as the Potter would mold into the shape He so desired - they would come to represent those Jews who would accept Jesus as their Messiah and go out into the world preaching the Good News.

Now, this is only a small part of the commentary on Chapter 2 that MUST tie into with the Hebrew chapters -7-12, and they do! Chapter 2 is the second most complicated chapter in Daniel only to be surpased by Chapter 11.... both are absolutely brutal to interpret and unpack.

So, God has now symbolically separated His chosen people who would accept Him and also revealed there would be many that would not and remain in the pre-cross Jewish faith. Verse 2:40 -43 go into much detail about this and they are extremely difficult to understand, but when we move on to Chapter 7, God will now reveal a very different 4th kingdom that no longer looks like the well groomed, powerful iron legs of pagan Rome. Now, they have been broken apart and Daniel can not even begin to explain what kind of animal it might represent that is found on earth.... Because the stone in a way has exploded the once organized beast and it is going in all different directions and can not be distinguished to anything within our animal kingdom...

Again, this is just a small section of a response to your insightful comments.

 

[Douggg]

If we focus on the feet and toes in Chapter 2, do you agree that the legs of iron AND THE FEET represent the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome?

Use of the terms "pagan Rome" and "papal Rome" are unique to SDA teachings.

Differently, the toes and feet of clay mixed with iron are descriptive of the Rome Empire in the end times. Which is the EU. Parts of the EU are strong nation states and other parts weak nation states.

 

[Douggg]

TBH, the "ten kings" of Revelation might point to the Club of Rome's "Ten Economic Centers" of which they'd divided up the planet in the coming NWO. But, that would make them distinct from the Ten Toes/Ten Horns.

I don't think the world as a whole will be divided up into ten regions. Because in Daniel 11:40-44, the beast-king is attacked first by the south, then the north, then east.

With the beast-king's kingdom of the EU being the west. I think the ten kings will be ten EU leaders of ten EU nation states - not yet revealed which those are. I don't think it is far into the future that those ten kings (leaders) and the little horn person will be made known - sometime before the end of 2030.

 

[Phoneman777]

I don't the world as a whole will be divided up into ten regions. Because in Daniel 11:40-44, the beast-king is attacked first by the south, then the north, then east.

With the beast-king's kingdom of the EU being the west. I think the ten kings will be ten EU leaders of ten EU nation states - not yet revealed which those are. I don't think it is far into the future that those ten kings (leaders) and the little horn person will be made known - sometime before the end of 2030.

These globalists gather at the annual "Bilderberg" meetings and other such "think tanks" claiming to work on solving the world's problems, but what they're really doing has been foretold in prophecy: helping to set up a global police state where you either conform to apostasy or suffer the consequences.

 

[CTK]

Use of the terms "pagan Rome" and "papal Rome" are unique to SDA teachings.

Differently, the toes and feet of clay mixed with iron are descriptive of the Rome Empire in the end times. Which is the EU. Parts of the EU are strong nation states and other parts weak nation states.

Dougg, you obviously have an issue with the SDA... but my interpretations are indeed my own. The SDA would certainly not accept any of the very different interpretations that relate to the 5 time elements found in Daniel. Again, every response you make is all about the future. You are completely missing the point of Daniel... it is all about the complete restoration of Daniel's people and Daniel's city after their return to Jerusalem. There is no more Daniel's people or city after the cross... After the cross, there is no more Jew or Greek, etc.

There certainly is no EU in Daniel ... you have simply not interpreted Daniel but moved on to try and determine what Revelation is telling you and then you are casting that back to the verses in Daniel. As I mentioned so many times, whether you agree with my interpretations or not is not important... we are all here to learn and express our desire to understand the Word of God. But I can unequivically state that Daniel can and will interpret Daniel - just as God would have it so His people can read, study and interpret it prior to His first coming and prior to the complete restoration of the people and the city....