MA2444
Well-Known Member
That's right! So, Isaiah, Jerimiah and Ezekial. I forgot that earlier and couldnt remember it. I thought there was a third book the Millenium was in.
The absurdity of Pretrib logic
- Thread starter WPM
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
That's right! So, Isaiah, Jerimiah and Ezekial. I forgot that earlier and couldnt remember it. I thought there was a third book the Millenium was in.
Zechariah 14 is another good one. Basically anywhere you see positive comments about Jerusalem in the Old Testament it’s referring to heavenly Jerusalem in the millennium.
Does this mean that over the years Amils did provide Biblical evidence from the book of Revelation that prove satan is bound during the NT church era? Obviously, Revelation 20 aside since it is debatable what era of time that fits, all previous chapters are pretty much pertaining to this present age and the NT church age, the same era of time Amils have satan bound in the pit. That's 19 entire chapters covering this current age and the NT church era. So where are the verses in any of those 19 chapters that support satan is bound in the pit and not deceiving the nations at the time?
Last edited:
David, "the" pre-trib rapture view is not defined by it's proponents as "pre-great tribulation" view.
The Pre-Trib Reseach Center (PTRC) site, themselves say...
The Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC) is committed to the study, proclamation, teaching, and defense of the pre-tribulation rapture (pre-70th week of Daniel) and related end-time prophecy.
....pre-70th week of Daniel, themselves. I did not insert that phrase.
Yes! Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations (or ethnos) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”
You have been shown repeatedly what the nature of the deception in our age actually is. It is a general biblical statement regarding the enlightenment of the Gentiles (the ethnos). It is showing that those who once sat in darkness, dead in sin, blinded by Satan, without hope and without God, would be the recipients of the glorious Gospel of Christ.
This truth therefore relates to the Gentiles as a whole. It is a generality! But individuals can still be deceived by Satan. This is not a contradiction. It is repeated throughout the OT and the NT. It is telling us that the Gentiles are no longer ignorant. A light has shone on them for 2000 years, giving them the opportunity to see and believe.
Before the cross the Gentiles were considered blind, ignorant, in bondage and living in darkness, deceived by the father of lies. Satan had them hoodwinked. He ruled the nations. He had them under his control. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse.
Many overlook the seismic change in regard to the Gospel opportunity that exist today (in comparison to before the cross) in regard to the nations access to truth.
This truth is highlighted in Matthew 4:8-9 where “the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.”
During the temptations of Christ in the desert, Satan offers Jesus the world if He would only bow down before him. Satan was well within his rights to make such an offer since Adam handed over world dominion to him when he allowed himself to be subject to Satan's will.
The parallel passage in Luke 4:5-7 says: “And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.”
Manifestly, through Adam’s sin, Satan was able to present a legitimate temptation to Christ. The fact the devil had the capability to tempt the Lord with this enticement proves he enjoyed authority over the nations that had to be broken. Ultimately, God permitted Satan to have this authority. But it was Adam that relinquished this rule over the earth in the Fall. After all, this was a definite and a real legitimate temptation. The devil had huge power over this world.
God controlled one single nation. Satan controlled the nations plural.
Acts 14:16 confirms that God “in times past suffered all nations (ethnos) to walk in their own ways.”
Acts 17:30 says, “the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”
Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles (ethnos) in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”
Did that mean that all Gentiles were wholesale lost or deceived? No! Many Gentiles found Christ in the OT. It was a general observation at the prevailing spiritual condition of the mass of the people. That is all Rev 20 is saying.
The Scriptures often depict the Gentiles in the Old Testament as deceived, without hope, blinded, ignorant and darkened. The Bible repeatedly describes the Gentiles in the New Testament as enlightened. That does not suggest that all were blind in the Old Testament or that all will be enlightened in the New Testament. These are simply sweeping generalities establishing the Gospel climate in either era. The widespread light didn’t shine on the nations throughout the Old Testament. Today, it does exist as the Gospel is preached throughout the nations. Before the cross, the Gospel was largely withheld from the nations. After the cross, the Gospel spread like wildfire throughout the globe. Like Israel in the Old Testament, the Gentiles in the New Testament have now had the light shone on them through the great commission.
Imprisonment, deception, blindness, darkness, hopelessness and ignorance are often tied together in Scripture, specially to describe the state of the Gentiles before the cross.
Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”
Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”
Last edited:
Why then aren't you reading the book of Joshua literally? You read a thousand years as literally one thousand years when the nation of Israel will receive the promised land, but Joshua tells us they already received ALL the land that God had promised them. Why would Israel be given Caanan, the land of promise again for one thousand years since they were driven from the land of promise when they sinned against the covenant of the LORD God? God kept His promise regarding division of the land of promise, and He has also kept His promise to punish them and take the land from them if committed sins against His covenant.
Joshua 23:14-16 (KJV) And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.
It makes even less sense to argue for possession of land Israel of Old has already received but lost through disobedience, since under the New Covenant through Christ faithful saints aren't promised only a small portion of land, we are promised we shall inherit the whole New Earth!
It would be refreshing for you to prove what you allege, but the problem for you is that there is not proof for what you allege!
You believe Satan is bound and then there shall be peace on this earth? Is that what the Scriptures tell you?
The 7 trumpets parallel Revelation 20. It involves the same general unfolding of events, only from a slightly different camera view, zooming in on different characters. It culminates in the release of Satan from the bottomless pit near the end, a final uprising for battle, and then Christ appears in majesty and glory to rescue the righteous, destroy the wicked, remove this current fallen creation, and usher in eternity.
Revelation 9:1-5 gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact, the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”
Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the second coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that demons are in the pit before the second coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.
Revelation 9:10-11 significantly adds: “they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”
Here we have a king reigning over them called “Abaddon” and “Apollyon.” Here is proof and corroboration that Satan is located in the abyss before the second coming not after it as Premils claim.
Satan is actually a king that has a throne. He carries authority and kingship over the kingdom of darkness. We see reference to that in Revelation 2:13 where it says, “I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat [Gr. thronos] is.” This statement did not in any way limit the throne of Satan to the city of Pergamos. Now, of course, the devil is not a physical being, so he does not have to sit upon a physical throne. This is basically a symbol speaking of Satan’s dominion over that particular city. Revelation 13:2 also refers to this, saying “the dragon gave him (the beast) his power, and his seat [Gr. thronos], and great authority.” Satan’s throne is not limited to one geographic city or nation. It is seen where lives submit to his lies and influence and implement his will.
If there is a correlation between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, maybe you would present the parallel. I do not see the connection at all.
According to Scripture Satan is bound that he should deceive the nations no longer. If he is not presently bound how are so many from all the nations of the world no longer deceived by him and have turned to Christ for everlasting life?
Revelation 12 covers the beginning of the millennium, after the first resurrection of Christ. It basically focuses in on the after affects of the resurrection. Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other. Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan, “the great dragon was cast out (ballo), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out (ballo) into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (ballo), which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”
In this reading we have an explicit outline of the nature and standing of the devil prior to his eviction from his accusing seat in heaven. At that time, he “accused” the elect of God in heaven “before our God day and night.” The accused here were overwhelmingly the Israeli believers – the only country privileged on a national scale with the Gospel. On earth, the devil ruled the Gentile nations unchallenged, deceiving “the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people.
Christ uses the same type of language in John 12 as He did in Revelation 12:31-33, when, shortly before the cross, He predicted the historic and eternal downfall of Satan through the cross. Jesus prophesied, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out (ekballo). And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die” (John 12:31-33).
Here again we have another clear confirmation as to the timing of the banishment of Satan. Christ deliberately connects the time of His death to the time when Satan “the prince of this world” would finally be “cast out.” There, He gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.
Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound (deo) him a thousand years, And cast (ballo) him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”
What is this telling us?
What God has been saying throughout the New Testament.
This whole portrayal seems to correspond with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).
Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control. He now holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind.
What is more, and it is sometimes missed in the text: His assumption to the throne occasioned the gracious liberating of the hitherto blinded nations by the Gospel. The Gentiles that were wholly deceived before the cross have now been enlightened and given an opportunity to experience God’s wonderful covenant of grace that was hitherto shut up to them.
By rejecting this truth Premils miss out on the enormity of Satan's defeat and fail to take a hold of the power that has been delegated to the Church.
These clear and explicit passages rebut the Premil theory on a future binding of Satan and a future imprisoning of him and his minions.
Both terms have been around as long as I can remember. And 'trib' in both terms infer the 70th week of Daniel.
The proponents of the pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib in error consider the entire 70th week of Daniel as "the tribulation"
The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is setup. Daniel 12:11-12 indicates 1335 days before Jesus returns, not 42 months. 1335 days/30 days per month = 44.5 months.
42 months is the length of time that the beast king will rule, unimpeded by the two witnesses that he will have killed in Daniel 11.
The first half of the 70th week is 1260 days.
The two witnesses are killed on day 1260. Their bodies lie in the streets of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days. On day 1263.5, the two witnesses come back to life and are called up to heaven. 1256.5 days left in the 70th wk. Those 1256.5 days are called 42 months in Revelation 11:2, that the gentiles will trampled down the city of Jerusalem.
The term time, times, half time is not exactly 1260 days, nor 42 months, but roughly 3 1/2 years.
Therefore in Daniel and Revelation, the timeframes given fit the 70th week as...
First half
1260 days (exactly) - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6
Second half
42 months (nominally) - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half time (3 1/2 years, nominally) - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7
Helpful understanding to "nominally"....
A commonly called 2x4 piece of lumber is not it's actual size when measured. When measured, it is 1 1/2 " x 3 1/2". The 2x4 term is it's "nominal" size. It's actual when measured size is called "dimensional" lumber.
Last edited:
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Heavenly Jerusalem? The Jerusalem that is on earth right now. There is a lot of unfulfilled prophecy still and it is about this earth.
I could die tomorrow and I'm not done with earth. I would return with Jesus and spend another 1000 years on earth! Without dying either I'm pert sure.
I thought I was disbled/retired. s it turns out, this is not retirment for me yet, lol. Am I not in service to the Lord? And I wonder if I will change trades for the Millenium? We'll all still work and to the glory of God.
You think Rev 14 is depicting a scene on earth because it says they are with the Lamb standing on Mt Sion? Will the four beasts the 144,000 sing before be on the earth also? Are not these the same four beasts of 4:6 that are full of eyes before and behind, vs 8 each having six wings, 5:6 stand before the Lamb that had been slain, 5:8 who fall down before the Lamb, 6 witness the Lamb opening the seals, 7 who fall down before the throne and worshipped God, 15:7 gave seven angels the seven vials full of the wrath of God? Clearly Rev 14:1-5 is depicting a scene of heaven, and not Mt Zion of the earth.
Revelation 14:1-5 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
One of the main purposes of Jesus coming was to do away with earthly Jerusalem and bring in heavenly Jerusalem.
Since Satan has been bound he is only able to deceive those among all the nations of the world who have not been born again. His ability to deceive those in Christ through fear over the power of death is broken in Christ, that all who have faith are no longer being deceived by fear of death as they once were, knowing that in Christ we HAVE ETERNAL life. You, as all premillennialists seem to think that the binding of Satan will bring love, joy and peace upon this earth. That ignores the words of Scripture, and shows you have no understanding of how the cross, resurrection and ascension of Christ spiritually binds an evil spirit.
- Status
Similar threads
