The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

Yes, myself, I don't believe in a rapture at all.

Why would you refer to yourself as being a pretribber ?

"pretribber" is label for persons who believe in a pre-trib (ulation) rapture. But since pre-trib considers the entire 7 year 70th week as "tribulation" - the term pre-trib actually infers pre-70th week rapture.

From this website...

Home - The Pre-Trib Research Center

www.pre-trib.org

The Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC) is committed to the study, proclamation, teaching, and defense of the pre-tribulation rapture (pre-70th week of Daniel) and related end-time prophecy.

 

[WPM]

Hey man! Glad to see you mentioned this part about heaven and earth. It's my favourite part of pre-trib-ism. You know why? Cause it turns out, that "heaven and earth" have already passed away. Betcha didn't know that! And yes, I'm being serious.

The heaven and earth in this prophesy, is a reference to the temple (proof below). True story. The outer temple represented earth and the sea, and the inner temple heaven, with the holy of holies, of course, the throne room of God. The entire temple structure was built to be a connection between heaven and earth. That was literally the point of it, to be a meeting place between God and man, and so that's why it was designed the way it was, and that's why it was called "heaven and earth" because this was the place where heaven and earth came together, to meet.

I know most Christians today have no clue about this, and therefore assume that it refers to the earth we walk on, and the heaven God lives in, but ignorance is no excuse. I'm telling you now, that this is a fact. Heaven and earth refers to the temple structure. See how Josephus describes it in Antiquities of the Jews, Book 3, Chapter 7:

When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men. And when he ordered twelve loaves to be set on the table, he denoted the year, as distinguished into so many months. By branching out the candlestick into seventy parts, he secretly intimated the Decani, or seventy divisions of the planets; and as to the seven lamps upon the candlesticks, they referred to the course of the planets, of which that is the number. The veils, too, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine linen was proper to signify the earth, because the flax grows out of the earth; the purple signified the sea, because that color is dyed by the blood of a sea shell-fish; the blue is fit to signify the air; and the scarlet will naturally be an indication of fire.

Now the vestment of the high priest being made of linen, signified the earth; the blue denoted the sky, being like lightning in its pomegranates, and in the noise of the bells resembling thunder. And for the ephod, it showed that God had made the universe of four elements; and as for the gold interwoven, I suppose it related to the splendor by which all things are enlightened. He also appointed the breastplate to be placed in the middle of the ephod, to resemble the earth, for that has the very middle place of the world. And the girdle which encompassed the high priest round, signified the ocean, for that goes round about and includes the universe. Each of the sardonyxes declares to us the sun and the moon; those, I mean, that were in the nature of buttons on the high priest’s shoulders. And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning. And for the mitre, which was of a blue color, it seems to me to mean heaven; for how otherwise could the name of God be inscribed upon it? (ANT 3.7)

This old "heaven and earth" was destroyed, as the old covenant was destroyed, and in the new covenant a new connection between" heaven and earth" was made and that is the life of Jesus that lives in us. This is why we no longer need the old heaven and earth. We now have a direct connection to God. We are now the new temple.

Are you sure you are not a Full Preterist? This is spirutualization gone crazy. I am not going to waste my time on such nonsense.

 

[WPM]

So what your saying is that no matter what scripture it is you have already rejected it with your tone. So go read the books for yourself and perhaps you can find it.

Lol. It is NOT there. I suspect you know what I know, thus your inability to provide anything.

 

[IndianaRob]

Where is a millennium mentioned in Isaiah?

Isaiah chapter 11 is about the millennium.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So, where is a future thousand years mentioned anywhere else in this Book after the second coming?

I could ask you the same question. We are both looking at the same chapter of Revelation. You believe that John is describing the current church age. I believe John is describing a future age. The text supports my position, it doesn't support yours.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Isaiah 9:1-2 predicted the Messiah and the massive effective of the spread of the Gospel to the nations: “the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records, “Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Luke 2:27-32: “And he (Simeon) came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 13:46-48: “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 26:17: "Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Romans 15:8-12 records: "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Try finding verses that suggest Satan has been bound.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Isaiah chapter 11 is about the millennium.

Sounds like it. :)

 

[CadyandZoe]

Like most Premils with a BIG-devil and small-god theology, you refuse to read on 1 Peter 5:8 says: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

Since Peter mentions that the Devil walks about seeking whom he may devour, this contradicts your mistaken belief that he has been bound.

 

[MA2444]

Lol. It is NOT there. I suspect you know what I know, thus your inability to provide anything.

Maybe you should read it again?

 

[IndianaRob]

Sounds like it. :)

For sure! The only question is when is it. In my opinion the timing is given in verse 10.

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Maybe you should read it again?

WPM believes in Replacement theology. He reinterprets God's promises to Israel as if they were promises "spiritual Israel." 1948 blew Amillennialism out of the water.

 

[CadyandZoe]

For sure! The only question is when is it. In my opinion the timing is given in verse 10.

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

I imagine this is why Jesus is called "the branch." Yes?

 

[IndianaRob]

I imagine this is why Jesus is called "the branch." Yes?

I would agree. And that leads to Jeremiah 33 which is also about the millennium.

 

[Davidpt]

Try finding verses that suggest Satan has been bound.

Especially in the book of Revelation, but not meaning Revelation 20:1-3. Where is there a single verse anywhere else in that book that depicts satan in a bound state at the time where he is not deceiving any nations during the NT church era? I can't even find anything like that in Revelation 12 which covers the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years Amils claim satan is bound in the pit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Especially in the book of Revelation, but not meaning Revelation 20:1-3. Where is there a single verse anywhere else in that book that depicts satan in a bound state at the time where he is not deceiving any nations during the NT church era? I can't even find anything like that in Revelation 12 which covers the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years Amils claim satan is bound in the pit.

I agree. What is your opinion of Revelation 12:10?

 

[Davidpt]

Why would you refer to yourself as being a pretribber ?

"pretribber" is label for persons who believe in a pre-trib (ulation) rapture. But since pre-trib considers the entire 7 year 70th week as "tribulation" - the term pre-trib actually infers pre-70th week rapture.

From this website...

Home - The Pre-Trib Research Center

www.pre-trib.org

The Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC) is committed to the study, proclamation, teaching, and defense of the pre-tribulation rapture (pre-70th week of Daniel) and related end-time prophecy.

A Pretrib rapture simply means any rapture that occurs before the start of great tribulation, regardless what one labels that view. Post trib means any rapture that occurs after great tribulation has ended. Pretrib means before great tribulation, post trib means after great tribulation. If you don't even know what pre and post means, maybe you should just stay away from this subject then? Even mid trib is pretrib since that proposed rapture also happens before great tribulation begins the fact there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation period. Great tribulation is 42 months and that mid trib has that rapture occurring before this 42 months begin, thus pretrib.

Not everyone agrees the 70th week is future. For the sake of argument, let's say everyone did agree. The timeline would look like this then.

The beginning of the 70th week up unto the middle involves 42 months. From the middle to the end of the 70th week involves another 42 months. Per this scenario since great tribulation is only 42 months, well 42 months can't stretch into 84 months, therefore, this 42 months either fits the first half of the 70th week or it fits the 2nd half. Obviously, it would be the 2nd half it fits. Any proposed rapture that precedes the beginning of the 2nd half of the 70th week would be pretrib, including your Anytime rapture and mid trib, since both proposed raptures precede the beginning of great tribulation. And that 'pre' means before the start of great tribulation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I would agree. And that leads to Jeremiah 33 which is also about the millennium.

Yes, indeed. The Lord is our righteousness. :)

 

[WPM]

Especially in the book of Revelation, but not meaning Revelation 20:1-3. Where is there a single verse anywhere else in that book that depicts satan in a bound state at the time where he is not deceiving any nations during the NT church era? I can't even find anything like that in Revelation 12 which covers the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years Amils claim satan is bound in the pit.

Avoid the biblical evidence over the years and you will assume that.

 

[WPM]

Yes, indeed. The Lord is our righteousness. :)

Where does it mention a millennium there? You are making the Bible say what you want.

 

[MA2444]

I imagine this is why Jesus is called "the branch." Yes?

Is that right? Doesnt it say in another place, I am the vine and Ye are the branches?