Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

[Behold]

Are you saved by faith,

[

A person is saved by God, based on God receiving their Faith in Christ.

Christ teaches this as "no one comes to the Father, but BY me".. John 14:6

"by me" = "All that BELIEVE IN ME"...

So, that is our :..... = "faith, is counted by God, as (Christ's) Righteousness"...

How does that work?

Well, "all have sinned, there is NONE righteous, no not one"..

So, Christ came, virgin born, to live a sinless life, and then offer this to a sinner, for their sin, from The Cross. .. = "Christ came into the world to SAVE Sinners".

This is the "divine exchange", whereby God takes the righteousness and righteous life that Jesus lived, and gives it to the BELIEVER, as "the GIFT of Righteousness" and "the GIFT of Salvation".... and takes ALL the Believer's Sin, and Christ dies for it ALL.

"God hath made JESUS... to BE SIN......for us".

See that exchange?
That is Redemption found IN Christ.

You take Christ by Faith, and God takes you by that Faith........not by water, and not by works.

This is "Justification, BY Faith"..

 

[GodsGrace]

Tell that to @Johann - LOL

I doubt @Johann needs any advice from me.
I'm speaking in general.
Unless there's a specific reason, I tend to just trust the translators of the NT.
They take a lot into consideration that is not included in the lexicon.

Thanks. Experts? (who never get it wrong?)

Experts don't usually get translations wrong.
They also use hermeneutics which we don't know enough about...
at least, most of us. This requires years of study of text, language, culture, etc.

It changes the meaning of the verse. Anyway, it's the topic question. Currently at page 11 of discussion. Many seem willing to discuss it. Even though you seem to prefer that we don't.

Where did I say I prefer that this not be discussed?
I've participated.
My question to you is WHY is this so important to you.
FAITH
THE FAITH
The FAITH

Does it have to do with soteriology?
You don't really have to answer, of course.

This is why ALL the other translation use "the faith". None of them wants to divert from the KJV. imho

[

Oh my.
This is too funny.
Most theologians and text experts don't even like the KJV.
So much has been learned since then.
I think it's beautiful language, but most persons have to translate it first and then read it again for content/context.
Too much work for most.

No one cares about diverting from the KJV.
I also read the bible in Italian...trust me, Italian translators don't care about the KJV.

 

[GodsGrace]

Let's see what your translation "experts" say about Ephesians 2:8-9

Ephesians 2:8-9NIV
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[

Which experts St. SteVen....don't get carried away.

Do you mean this?:

New International Version
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

New Living Translation
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

English Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Berean Standard Bible
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Berean Literal Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

King James Bible
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

New King James Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

NASB 1995
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

NASB 1977
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Legacy Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Amplified Bible
For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;

Christian Standard Bible
For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—

American Standard Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God,

Contemporary English Version
You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better than we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

English Revised Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.

International Standard Version
For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God

Literal Standard Version
for by grace you are saved, through faith, and this [is] not of yourselves—[it is] the gift of God,

Majority Standard Bible
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

New American Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;

NET Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

New Revised Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—

New Heart English Bible
for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Webster's Bible Translation
For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Weymouth New Testament
For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--

World English Bible
for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Young's Literal Translation
for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

 

[GodsGrace]

@St. SteVen

I wanted to add that in the Italian bible Ephesians 2:8 states the faith.....

but only because it MUST be added for grammatical purposes, to make it flow better
la grazia, tramite la fede...
same for four different Ital bibles I have.

It literally says THROUGH THE FAITH

Again, WHY?

What is wrong about being saved by THE faith?

Don't you have A FAITH?
That is THE FAITH.

I think you're caught in a nuance that is of little importance.

 

[Johann]

for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

So what is the Dorean? Is it salvation, grace, faith?
Granville Sharp's rule is a grammatical principle concerning the use of the Greek article (ὁ, ἡ, τό) in the New Testament. The rule states that when two singular, personal, and non-proper nouns of the same case are connected by the conjunction "καί" (and), and the first noun has the article while the second does not, both nouns refer to the same person or subject.

Applying Granville Sharp's rule to the the passage requires careful consideration of the Greek text. The passage in question seems to be Ephesians 2:8, which in Greek reads:

"τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·"

Transliteration:

"Tē gar chariti este sesōsmenoi dia pisteōs; kai touto ouk ex hymōn, theou to dōron;"

Translation:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Granville Sharp’s Rule in This Passage:
In the context of Ephesians 2:8, the key phrase "καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον" ("and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God") is of interest. Specifically:

"καὶ τοῦτο" (kai touto): "and this" – This demonstrative pronoun is neuter and refers to the whole concept of salvation by grace through faith rather than to a specific word like "faith" (πίστεως) or "grace" (χάριτι).
"θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον" (theou to dōron): "it is the gift of God" – The phrase emphasizes that the entire process of salvation is a divine gift, not something originating from human effort.
Applicability of Granville Sharp’s Rule:
Granville Sharp’s rule doesn't directly apply to this phrase because there is no "καί" (and) joining two singular, personal, non-proper nouns with one article. Instead, what is evident is that "τοῦτο" (this) refers to the preceding phrase, summarizing salvation by grace through faith as a unified concept that is not from human origin but is entirely a gift from God.

This passage emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, encompassing both grace and faith. The phrase "καὶ τοῦτο" ("and this") likely refers to the entire clause preceding it ("by grace you have been saved through faith") rather than isolating either "grace" or "faith" as the specific "gift."


While Granville Sharp's rule is a valuable tool for understanding certain passages in the New Testament, it does not directly apply to Ephesians 2:8. The focus in this passage is on the complete concept of salvation as a gift from God, rather than on identifying a specific grammatical relationship between nouns. The passage underscores the idea that both grace and faith are gifts, with salvation itself being entirely the work of God.

 

[St. SteVen]

Haven't even started using any lexicons @St. SteVen -just using the Grammar and Morphology of the Hebrew and Greek and context.

Right, I hadn't either. That's what @GodsGrace called it. - LOL

[

 

[GodsGrace]

St. SteVen said:
Discussion questions;
1) Is the basis for your salvation a personal decision to follow God, or to follow the church?
2) If your salvation is in "the Faith", who prescribed what that means?

Sure.
Faith = Belief that manifests in a personal decision to follow God.
The Faith = A system of belief related to Christianity.

We are saved by grace through faith, not THE Faith.

Let me bring up another point then....
Many Christians believe they are saved by THE faith.

Why?
Because they'll tell you right out that any person that doesn't believe in Jesus is not going to heaven.
And they mean ANY PERSON,,,,even some poor soul in a South American forest that never heard of Jesus.
He's going straight to hell according to them.

So...
Even though they'll say that we're saved by faith...
What they really believe is that we're saved by THE faith.
THE faith that teaches about Jesus being the Way the Truth and the Life and no one else could come to the Father.
This is called THE faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

So what is the Dorean? Is it salvation, grace, faith?
Granville Sharp's rule is a grammatical principle concerning the use of the Greek article (ὁ, ἡ, τό) in the New Testament. The rule states that when two singular, personal, and non-proper nouns of the same case are connected by the conjunction "καί" (and), and the first noun has the article while the second does not, both nouns refer to the same person or subject.

Applying Granville Sharp's rule to the the passage requires careful consideration of the Greek text. The passage in question seems to be Ephesians 2:8, which in Greek reads:

"τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·"

Transliteration:

"Tē gar chariti este sesōsmenoi dia pisteōs; kai touto ouk ex hymōn, theou to dōron;"

Translation:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Granville Sharp’s Rule in This Passage:
In the context of Ephesians 2:8, the key phrase "καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον" ("and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God") is of interest. Specifically:

"καὶ τοῦτο" (kai touto): "and this" – This demonstrative pronoun is neuter and refers to the whole concept of salvation by grace through faith rather than to a specific word like "faith" (πίστεως) or "grace" (χάριτι).
"θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον" (theou to dōron): "it is the gift of God" – The phrase emphasizes that the entire process of salvation is a divine gift, not something originating from human effort.
Applicability of Granville Sharp’s Rule:
Granville Sharp’s rule doesn't directly apply to this phrase because there is no "καί" (and) joining two singular, personal, non-proper nouns with one article. Instead, what is evident is that "τοῦτο" (this) refers to the preceding phrase, summarizing salvation by grace through faith as a unified concept that is not from human origin but is entirely a gift from God.

This passage emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, encompassing both grace and faith. The phrase "καὶ τοῦτο" ("and this") likely refers to the entire clause preceding it ("by grace you have been saved through faith") rather than isolating either "grace" or "faith" as the specific "gift."


While Granville Sharp's rule is a valuable tool for understanding certain passages in the New Testament, it does not directly apply to Ephesians 2:8. The focus in this passage is on the complete concept of salvation as a gift from God, rather than on identifying a specific grammatical relationship between nouns. The passage underscores the idea that both grace and faith are gifts, with salvation itself being entirely the work of God.

I think what you're saying is that all 3 subjects in Ephesians 2 are the gift.
Yes. Agreed.
Grace is a gift.
Salvation is a gift.
Faith is a gift.

 

[Johann]

I think what you're saying is that all 3 subjects in Ephesians 2 are the gift.
Yes. Agreed.
Grace is a gift.
Salvation is a gift.
Faith is a gift.

That's exactly what I'm saying-boasting excluded.
J.

 

[St. SteVen]

My question to you is WHY is this so important to you.
FAITH
THE FAITH
The FAITH

I'm questioning what the key verse is referring to. It makes a difference.
What was it that was once for all entrusted to the saints?
- The message of salvation by belief in Jesus = the faith
- The practice of the Christian religion = The Faith

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Let me bring up another point then....
Many Christians believe they are saved by THE faith.

Why?
Because they'll tell you right out that any person that doesn't believe in Jesus is not going to heaven.
And they mean ANY PERSON,,,,even some poor soul in a South American forest that never heard of Jesus.
He's going straight to hell according to them.

So...
Even though they'll say that we're saved by faith...
What they really believe is that we're saved by THE faith.
THE faith that teaches about Jesus being the Way the Truth and the Life and no one else could come to the Father.
This is called THE faith.

There is no salvation in The Faith. Only God can save, and he doesn't need The Faith do do it.
The Faith is man-made. Faith is God-made. No one is saved by faith either, the object of your faith is what matters.
Religion can't save anyone. The greatest faith imaginable can't save anyone. Only God can save.

When you take a seat in a chair, you have faith that it will hold your weight. If the chair is bad, you will fall.
All the faith you had in that chair is worthless at that point.

[

 

[Johann]

There is no salvation in The Faith. Only God can save, and he doesn't need The Faith do do it.
The Faith is man-made. Faith is God-made. No one is saved by faith, the object of your faith is what matters.
Religion can't save anyone. The greatest faith imaginable can't save anyone. Only God can save.

The Faith as the Belief System Centered on Jesus:
In passages like Jude 1:3, where it says, “I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints,” the term “the faith” is referring to the core beliefs of Christianity, centered on the person and work of Jesus Christ. Here, “the faith” is not just an abstract system but a set of truths pointing directly to Jesus as the Savior. This faith encompasses the gospel message, including the reality of who Jesus is and what He has accomplished.

Personal Faith and Trust in Jesus:
In other contexts, when Scripture speaks of faith without the definite article (e.g., “through faith in Jesus Christ”), the emphasis is on a personal trust and reliance on Jesus. This is a more relational and dynamic understanding, where faith is not merely intellectual assent to doctrine but an active, ongoing trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Scriptural Explanation:
Galatians 2:16 (Lexham Bible Translation):
“Yet we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.”

Here, “faith in Jesus Christ” refers to a personal trust in Him for salvation. While “the faith” as a doctrinal system points to Jesus, it is this personal, living faith in Christ that justifies and saves.

Hebrews 12:2 (Lexham Bible Translation):
“fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding the shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God.”

This verse directs believers to focus on Jesus, who is both the origin and completion of their faith. While “the faith” may refer to the collective understanding of Christian doctrine, it ultimately leads believers to focus on Jesus Himself, who is the foundation and fulfillment of that faith.


While “the faith” does indeed point to Jesus, the essential aspect is that it directs believers toward a personal, transformative relationship with Him. It is not just the intellectual acknowledgment of “the faith” that saves, but the personal trust in Jesus, who is the object of that faith. Thus, “the faith” and personal faith in Jesus are interconnected, with “the faith” serving to guide and point believers to a genuine, saving relationship with Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm questioning what the key verse is referring to. It makes a difference.
What was it that was once for all entrusted to the saints?
- The message of salvation by belief in Jesus = the faith
- The practice of the Christian religion = The Faith

[

BOTH!!
THE faith encompasses belief in Jesus for salvation.

By the practice of the Christian religion....what exactly do you mean?
EVERYTHING Paul taught, and all the writers, speak to the practice of the Christian religion.
Jesus spoke to the practice of the Christian religion....
See the beatitudes starting in Matthew 5....

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no salvation in The Faith.

Of course there's salvation in The Faith!
Do you believe what Jesus taught or not?
Do you believe what the Apostles taught or not?

THE faith is what they taught.
This is not difficult.
They taught that YOU MUST HAVE FAITH.
That is part of The Faith.

Only God can save, and he doesn't need The Faith do do it.

Actually, I agree with you but that'll get us into a totally different topic.
God can save no matter what...

The Faith is man-made. Faith is God-made.

Man-made....
but by which men?
Which men are trying to teach you HOW to be saved?
Do you not trust them?

No one is saved by faith either, the object of your faith is what matters.
Religion can't save anyone. The greatest faith imaginable can't save anyone. Only God can save.

Of course.
Even the OT tells us that God Himself will be our savior.

When you take a seat in a chair, you have faith that it will hold your weight. If the chair is bad, you will fall.
All the faith you had in that chair is worthless at that point.

[

So you believe that the chair is The faith.
So you don't believe at all in your faith?

Should we just be wandering around with nothing to hold us up?
Isn't RELIGION what keeps us together.
RELIGION from the word
RILEGARE
TO TIE TOGETHER.

 

[face2face]

As to the source....satan is the source.

You don't know what you are saying...if there was such a thing as a fallen angel and that angel exists by God Eternal Spirit then His Spirit is evil.

Sorry you will need to find another origin.

F2F

 

[face2face]

It would be nice, however, if you explained why there are hurricanes.

Cost of Creation Principle

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't know what you are saying...if there was such a thing as a fallen angel and that angel exists by God Eternal Spirit then His Spirit is evil.

Sorry you will need to find another origin.

F2F

Like I said face....
I'm Christian.
I belong to the Christian faith.
My Christian faith teaches that satan is real.
That's all I need.

Jesus said the He drove out demons.
That's all I need.

I see evil all around me.
It's everywhere....even in nature.
That's all I need.

No need to find another origin.

 

[GodsGrace]

Cost of Creation Principle

I don't know what that is.
Never heard of it.
You don't trust your Christian faith?

 

[face2face]

Like I said face....
I'm Christian.
I belong to the Christian faith.
My Christian faith teaches that satan is real.
That's all I need.

Jesus said the He drove out demons.
That's all I need.

I see evil all around me.
It's everywhere....even in nature.
That's all I need.

No need to find another origin.

You didnt deal with the issue.

If God is Holy and His Eternal Spirit is Holy how can there be an Eternal Evil being?

You know it's impossible but you don't know how to process all that that demands.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I don't know what that is.
Never heard of it.
You don't trust your Christian faith?

Not sure what you are on about with the last question???

If I asked you what is the cost of discipleship could you answer that?

F2F