Making Disciples

[Johann]

He learned a hard lesson and then after the resurrection, their cowardice vanished and were all willing to die and did eventually.

We all need to die daily-are we willing?

The concept of "dying daily" for believers is rooted in the New Testament and reflects the Christian idea of continual self-denial, taking up one's cross, and living a life that is increasingly conformed to Christ. This idea emphasizes the need for believers to continually put to death their old sinful nature and live according to the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:31 - "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily."

Paul uses the phrase "I die daily" to emphasize the continual sacrifices, dangers, and persecutions he faces as an apostle. This can be understood metaphorically to refer to the ongoing process of dying to self and the old nature in the Christian life.
Luke 9:23 - "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

Jesus instructs His followers to deny themselves and take up their cross daily, which implies a continual process of dying to one's own desires, ambitions, and sinful inclinations to follow Him.
Romans 6:6-7 - "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Here, Paul speaks of the believer’s old self being crucified with Christ, which is a form of dying. Although this passage doesn’t use the word "daily," it describes an ongoing reality for believers: living in the freedom that comes from dying to sin.
Galatians 2:20 - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Paul declares that he has been crucified with Christ, indicating that his old self has died. The life he now lives is by faith in Christ, illustrating the continual dying to self and living to God.
Colossians 3:5 - "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry."

The word "mortify" means to put to death. Believers are instructed to continually put to death the sinful deeds of the body, which aligns with the concept of dying daily to sin.
Romans 8:13 - "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Similar to Colossians 3:5, this passage calls for the continual putting to death of the sinful actions of the body through the power of the Spirit, which can be seen as a daily practice of dying to the old nature.
2 Corinthians 4:10-11 - "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh."

Paul speaks of carrying in his body the "dying of the Lord Jesus" so that Jesus' life may also be manifested. This ongoing process of identifying with Christ's death leads to the manifestation of His life in believers.
These scriptures collectively convey the Christian doctrine that believers are called to live a life of daily self-denial, continuously dying to sin and self in order to live a life that reflects Christ's character and resurrection power.

I think this is what @Episkopos refers to-death to self.

 

[Lizbeth]

Think it through. Jesus said...No man comes to Me unless the Father draws Him. And this isn't speaking of the religious version of churchianity whereby people decide for themselves that they are "saved", "righteous", a little bit holy, disciples....etc

Coming to genuine saving faith in Christ is an act of the Holy Spirit, not of our own. But after that it's up to us to take up our cross and begin to follow/obey Jesus. His Spirit within unctions and strengthens us and gives us the desire to be obedient.

 

[Episkopos]

Coming to genuine saving faith in Christ is an act of the Holy Spirit, not of our own. But after that it's up to us to take up our cross and begin to follow/obey Jesus. His Spirit within unctions and strengthens us and gives us the desire to be obedient.

Exactly. The wildernesses walk. From there we are to seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness....not assuming and presuming that one is more advanced than one is. Otherwise what is good can become a lie as people name and claim something that they have not yet attained. If people think they already have all...and are become rich...then they will seek no further... and lose their humility, and the fear of the Lord. As we see over and over again among the untaught and uncrucified.

 

[Lizbeth]

The political scene is just a reflection of a very poor state among supposed believers. The poor state and dishonesty of people who claim to be the church causes spiritual chaos to reign...leaving room for every possible deviation from all that is wholesome and true.

It's a trickle down effect. Spiritual chaos brings a sick society. And it will get worse and worse since so few are able to tolerate even an instant of truth where people name and claim themselves to be in the truth. The nerve of some people. But the wrath of God is coming...on those who think they are safe. Like Agag who said the danger of death is now passed. (before being hacked into pieces by Samuel).

Better to be hacked to pieces in one's false doctrines than to be literally taken to pieces on judgment day. Let those who are able to read and hear take note.

Yes, I don't entirely disagree, I see it as the Lord being on His throne judging and getting things ready to wrap up for the end of this age and the final "battle", as prophesied. He is judging a church and society that is being deceived to be unequally yoked with unbelievers and being in friendship with the world.....that's why the church is hard to distinguish from the world now.....it's falling away.

 

[Lizbeth]

Exactly. The wildernesses walk. From there we are to seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness....not assuming and presuming that one is more advanced than one is. Otherwise what is good can become a lie as people name and claim something that they have not yet attained. If people think they already have all...and are become rich...then they will seek no further... and lose their humility, and the fear of the Lord. As we see over and over again among the untaught and uncrucified.

This is why it's important to distinguish between what has been imputed to us as opposed to what we have actually apprehended. And it's also very important to understand that the foundation supplies the entrance into the rest of the building. The Lord gave me a dream several years ago, in which I was in His temple and He showed me how the foundation and porch (entranceway) are all of one piece......flawless, perfect.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, I don't entirely disagree, I see it as the Lord being on His throne judging and getting things ready to wrap up for the end of this age and the final "battle", as prophesied. He is judging a church and society that is being deceived to be unequally yoked with unbelievers and being in friendship with the world.....that's why the church is hard to distinguish from the world now.....it's falling away.

You only see one aspect of the church's fall. On the liberal side the church is moving towards liberalism...permissiveness, compromise and carnality. But what conservatives don't see is even worse. The Pharisees were NOT liberal, they were conservative. And just like so many modern believers, they judged the slack liberal elements (that Jesus went easier on) in a bid to justify themselves. And a conservative cannot see this. They are blind.

The devil has a one-two punch strategy that never fails, except among the true "vetted" disciples who are actually crucified with Christ and no longer have any confidence (or certainty) in the flesh.

My hope is to save a few among the conservatives, as these pose the greatest challenge to the truth of the gospel, resisting God by the strength of a religious ego.

The more certain one becomes on the conservative bent, the more lost one becomes. The more lost one becomes in that bent the more certain he/she becomes...into a downward spiral.

The liberals take love and acceptance too far. But the conservatives take judgment too far. Which did Jesus warn against the most? Judge not lest you be judged. The humble hear the words of the Lord and depart from evil.

It was conservatives that put Jesus on the cross...then...and now. A conservative can only point to a cross that has Jesus on it...not themselves on it. These see no point in sacrificing themselves for others. That would be too liberal.

Of course when a conservative is told the truth about their bent, he/she will claim the person warning them can only be a liberal. As in...if you are not a drug addict then you must be an alcoholic. The carnal mind sees no divine alternative because it doesn't know God.

 

[Johann]

This is why it's important to distinguish between what has been imputed to us as opposed to what we have actually apprehended. And it's also very important to understand that the foundation supplies the entrance into the rest of the building. The Lord gave me a dream several years ago, in which I was in His temple and He showed me how the foundation and porch (entranceway) are all of one piece......flawless, perfect.

"Apart from Me you can do nothing," spoken by Jesus in John 15:5, emphasizes the essential dependence of believers on Christ for spiritual fruitfulness and effectiveness. This theme of dependence on God and Christ is echoed throughout the Bible in various passages.

Old Testament References
Psalm 127:1 - "Unless the Lord builds the house, the builders labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the guards stand watch in vain."

This verse highlights the futility of human effort without God's involvement, paralleling the idea that apart from Christ, human endeavors are ultimately fruitless.
Jeremiah 10:23 - "Lord, I know that people’s lives are not their own; it is not for them to direct their steps."

This passage is indicative upon human reliance on God's guidance, echoing the need for divine direction, which Jesus emphasized in John 15:5.
Proverbs 3:5-6 - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to Him, and He will make your paths straight."

These verses advocate for complete trust and reliance on God, rather than on one’s own wisdom, which aligns with the principle that without Christ, we can do nothing.
New Testament References
Philippians 4:13 - "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

This well-known verse directly complements John 15:5, asserting that all things are possible through Christ's empowerment, emphasize the necessity of remaining in Him for strength and ability.
2 Corinthians 3:5 - "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God."

Paul echoes the idea that human sufficiency and ability come from God, reinforcing the truth that apart from Christ, we can do nothing.
Colossians 1:17 - "And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

This passage emphasizes Christ's sustaining power over all creation, affirming the dependence of all things on Him, which includes the believer’s ability to bear fruit.
John 5:19 - "Then Jesus answered and said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.'"

Jesus here reflects the principle of dependence, even in His relationship with the Father, mirroring the dependence He expects from His followers.
John 15:4 - "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

This verse is directly connected to John 15:5, illustrating the necessity of abiding in Christ to bear fruit, reinforcing the message that apart from Him, nothing can be accomplished.
1 Corinthians 12:6 - "And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all."

This passage reminds believers that it is God who empowers all activities within the body of Christ, further emphasizing the message that nothing of true spiritual value can be achieved apart from Him.

These Scripture references collectively emphasize the biblical theme of total dependence on God and Christ for all spiritual strength, guidance, and fruitfulness. The consistent message is that human effort, wisdom, or strength is insufficient without the abiding presence and empowerment of Christ.

Without Christ we can do nothing and it is Imperative to die daily, take up our cross and keep on following the Master. 3 Imperatives in this verse.
Maybe off topic in your discussion with Epi.

God bless.
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

You only see one aspect of the church's fall. On the liberal side the church is moving towards liberalism...permissiveness, compromise and carnality. But what conservatives don't see is even worse. The Pharisees were NOT liberal, they were conservative. And just like so many modern believers, they judged the slack liberal elements (that Jesus went easier on) in a bid to justify themselves. And a conservative cannot see this. They are blind.

The devil has a one-two punch strategy that never fails, except among the true "vetted" disciples who are actually crucified with Christ and no longer have any confidence (or certainty) in the flesh.

My hope is to save a few among the conservatives, as these pose the greatest challenge to the truth of the gospel, resisting God by the strength of a religious ego.

The more certain one becomes on the conservative bent, the more lost one becomes. The more lost one becomes in that bent the more certain he/she becomes...into a downward spiral.

The liberals take love and acceptance too far. But the conservatives take judgment too far. Which did Jesus warn against the most? Judge not lest you be judged. The humble hear the words of the Lord and depart from evil.

Of course when a conservative is told the truth about their bent, he/she will claim the person warning them can only be a liberal. As in...if you are not a drug addict then you must be an alcoholic. The carnal mind sees no divine alternative because it doesn't know God.

Yes, two ditches that we can fall into.....one on each side of the narrow road. There were two leavens that Jesus said to beware of...leaven of the Pharisees and leaven of Herod. We are to look neither to the right nor the left.

 

[Johann]

Yes, two ditches that we can fall into.....one on each side of the narrow road. There were two leavens that Jesus said to beware of...leaven of the Pharisees and leaven of Herod. We are to look neither to the right nor the left.

The leaven of Epi-no doubt.

 

[Lizbeth]

"Apart from Me you can do nothing," spoken by Jesus in John 15:5, emphasizes the essential dependence of believers on Christ for spiritual fruitfulness and effectiveness. This theme of dependence on God and Christ is echoed throughout the Bible in various passages.

Old Testament References
Psalm 127:1 - "Unless the Lord builds the house, the builders labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the guards stand watch in vain."

This verse highlights the futility of human effort without God's involvement, paralleling the idea that apart from Christ, human endeavors are ultimately fruitless.
Jeremiah 10:23 - "Lord, I know that people’s lives are not their own; it is not for them to direct their steps."

This passage is indicative upon human reliance on God's guidance, echoing the need for divine direction, which Jesus emphasized in John 15:5.
Proverbs 3:5-6 - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to Him, and He will make your paths straight."

These verses advocate for complete trust and reliance on God, rather than on one’s own wisdom, which aligns with the principle that without Christ, we can do nothing.
New Testament References
Philippians 4:13 - "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

This well-known verse directly complements John 15:5, asserting that all things are possible through Christ's empowerment, emphasize the necessity of remaining in Him for strength and ability.
2 Corinthians 3:5 - "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God."

Paul echoes the idea that human sufficiency and ability come from God, reinforcing the truth that apart from Christ, we can do nothing.
Colossians 1:17 - "And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

This passage emphasizes Christ's sustaining power over all creation, affirming the dependence of all things on Him, which includes the believer’s ability to bear fruit.
John 5:19 - "Then Jesus answered and said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.'"

Jesus here reflects the principle of dependence, even in His relationship with the Father, mirroring the dependence He expects from His followers.
John 15:4 - "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

This verse is directly connected to John 15:5, illustrating the necessity of abiding in Christ to bear fruit, reinforcing the message that apart from Him, nothing can be accomplished.
1 Corinthians 12:6 - "And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all."

This passage reminds believers that it is God who empowers all activities within the body of Christ, further emphasizing the message that nothing of true spiritual value can be achieved apart from Him.

These Scripture references collectively emphasize the biblical theme of total dependence on God and Christ for all spiritual strength, guidance, and fruitfulness. The consistent message is that human effort, wisdom, or strength is insufficient without the abiding presence and empowerment of Christ.

Without Christ we can do nothing and it is Imperative to die daily, take up our cross and keep on following the Master. 3 Imperatives in this verse.
Maybe off topic in your discussion with Epi.

God bless.
J.

I don't think it's off topic, these things are all related. Amen, we need to rely on the Holy Spirit, our Heavenly Father, and not the old spirit of our old man whose father (spirit) is actually the devil. And I believe this goes deeper than outward deeds......because our old man and his devil is capable of both good and evil, so we need to die out even to our own "good" as well as evil. Because so much of our "good" is of the flesh, not God's spirit, and therefore falls short of His glory. We are often offering strange fire without realizing it rather than pure heavenly fire from heaven. I'm finding this is harder to die to than my evil.....it is harder to trust the Lord through this dying out to my "good" when I still have a lingering idea that His love for me at least partly depends on me...on my being and doing "good". Jesus on the cross, at the end, and unable to do anything "good" except continue offering Himself up to die, felt forsaken. The scripture says our corn of wheat must be buried in the ground to die in order to produce a spiritual crop. A perfectly "good" or at least reasonably "good" corn of wheat as far as we can tell, and it seems like a waste to bury it instead of eat it, yet this is God's wisdom.

 

[Johann]

Yes, two ditches that we can fall into.....one on each side of the narrow road. There were two leavens that Jesus said to beware of...leaven of the Pharisees and leaven of Herod. We are to look neither to the right nor the left.

The leaven of the Pharisees (hypocrisy and legalism),
The leaven of Herod (worldly influence and corruption),
The leaven of the Sadducees (false doctrine and disbelief).

When Jesus warned His disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Sadducees" (Matthew 16:6, 11-12), He was pointing out the dangerous influence of their false teachings and disbelief. The Sadducees were a Jewish sect during the time of Jesus, known for their denial of key spiritual realities, such as the resurrection of the dead, the existence of angels, and the immortality of the soul. They were more aligned with the wealthy, priestly aristocracy and were often seen as collaborators with the Roman authorities. Their focus was largely on the present, material world, dismissing the hope and reality of the life to come.

The leaven, in a biblical context, is often used as a metaphor for something that has the potential to spread and influence in a negative way. Just as a small amount of leaven (yeast) can cause an entire batch of dough to rise, so too can a small amount of false doctrine or disbelief infiltrate and corrupt a person's faith or a community's spiritual life.

Jesus was essentially cautioning His followers not to allow the Sadducees' way of thinking—this materialistic, faithless approach—to take root in their hearts. It’s a warning that resonates even today, urging us to remain vigilant against influences that might lead us away from the truths of the Gospel and the hope of eternal life.

May the Lord indeed grant us wisdom and discernment, so we can rightly divide the Word of Truth, as Paul encourages in 2 Timothy 2:15, and live in a way that is in full alignment with the Spirit. Living in conformity with the Spirit involves not just avoiding false teachings but actively embracing and walking in the truth, allowing the Holy Spirit to guide and shape our lives according to God's will.

This message is as relevant now as it was then, reminding us that our faith should be grounded in the full counsel of God's Word, and not swayed by the ever-changing tides of human philosophy or societal trends.

Not saying anything here that you already are aware of sister.
As for the ditches-Ditto!
J.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, two ditches that we can fall into.....one on each side of the narrow road. There were two leavens that Jesus said to beware of...leaven of the Pharisees and leaven of Herod. We are to look neither to the right nor the left.

As long as you see the one you are in...religious theories aside. An actual spiritual condition, not name it claim it religion.

Why not come out of the ditch of iniquity? Stop judging from yourself and stop being so religiously certain. Seek God for His approval. Seek God to be crucified from the power of the flesh...to find a whole new world to aspire to. Seek God to go from a "filthy" partial "holiness"...into a walk in true holiness. Seek God for an experience of an eternal righteousness...His kind of righteousness. Seek God to enter INTO Christ for all the benefits of so great a salvation.

 

[Johann]

As long as you see the one you are in...religious theories aside. An actual spiritual condition, not name it claim it religion.

Why not come out of the ditch of iniquity? Stop judging from yourself and stop being so religiously certain. Seek God for His approval. Seek God to be crucified from the power of the flesh...to find a whole new world to aspire to. Seek God to go from a "filthy" partial "holiness"...into a walk in true holiness. Seek God for an experience of an eternal righteousness...His kind of righteousness. Seek God to enter INTO Christ for all the benefits of so great a salvation.

So, based on your reasoning, it seems that Lizbeth isn't yet fully "in Christ Jesus." It’s as if she’s standing at the foot of the cross, aware of what it signifies, but hasn’t yet taken the step to fully embrace and go through the cross, entering into that deep, transformative relationship with Christ.
That what you are saying?

 

[Lizbeth]

The leaven of the Pharisees (hypocrisy and legalism),
The leaven of Herod (worldly influence and corruption),
The leaven of the Sadducees (false doctrine and disbelief).

When Jesus warned His disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Sadducees" (Matthew 16:6, 11-12), He was pointing out the dangerous influence of their false teachings and disbelief. The Sadducees were a Jewish sect during the time of Jesus, known for their denial of key spiritual realities, such as the resurrection of the dead, the existence of angels, and the immortality of the soul. They were more aligned with the wealthy, priestly aristocracy and were often seen as collaborators with the Roman authorities. Their focus was largely on the present, material world, dismissing the hope and reality of the life to come.

The leaven, in a biblical context, is often used as a metaphor for something that has the potential to spread and influence in a negative way. Just as a small amount of leaven (yeast) can cause an entire batch of dough to rise, so too can a small amount of false doctrine or disbelief infiltrate and corrupt a person's faith or a community's spiritual life.

Jesus was essentially cautioning His followers not to allow the Sadducees' way of thinking—this materialistic, faithless approach—to take root in their hearts. It’s a warning that resonates even today, urging us to remain vigilant against influences that might lead us away from the truths of the Gospel and the hope of eternal life.

May the Lord indeed grant us wisdom and discernment, so we can rightly divide the Word of Truth, as Paul encourages in 2 Timothy 2:15, and live in a way that is in full alignment with the Spirit. Living in conformity with the Spirit involves not just avoiding false teachings but actively embracing and walking in the truth, allowing the Holy Spirit to guide and shape our lives according to God's will.

This message is as relevant now as it was then, reminding us that our faith should be grounded in the full counsel of God's Word, and not swayed by the ever-changing tides of human philosophy or societal trends.

Not saying anything here that you already are aware of sister.
As for the ditches-Ditto!
J.

No I didn't know there were three leavens actually. Thanks for that. Ok, three leavens to watch out for then, and why not, since that narrow road isn't two dimensional but is spiritual.

 

[Lizbeth]

As long as you see the one you are in...religious theories aside. An actual spiritual condition, not name it claim it religion.

Why not come out of the ditch of iniquity? Stop judging from yourself and stop being so religiously certain. Seek God for His approval. Seek God to be crucified from the power of the flesh...to find a whole new world to aspire to. Seek God to go from a "filthy" partial "holiness"...into a walk in true holiness. Seek God for an experience of an eternal righteousness...His kind of righteousness. Seek God to enter INTO Christ for all the benefits of so great a salvation.

I don't claim anything Epi. Why do you keep insisting that everyone is a "namer and claimer"? Jesus offered me a gift and it's only by His grace that I didn't harden my heart so as to refuse it. It's not of my own, and I see and know very well that in me is no good thing, apart from His gift. I'm not going to refuse it now as you apparently would have me and everyone do to make us fall away from grace. What is your spiritual condition that you would try to do that?

 

[Episkopos]

So, based on your reasoning, it seems that Lizbeth isn't yet fully "in Christ Jesus." It’s as if she’s standing at the foot of the cross, aware of what it signifies, but hasn’t yet taken the step to fully embrace and go through the cross, entering into that deep, transformative relationship with Christ.
That what you are saying?

You have not understood anything beyond a dogmatic belief up to this point. You are not going to understand anything I try explaining to you.

 

[Episkopos]

I don't claim anything Epi.

So then what do you judge from? What is your platform to judge people outside the faith? You don't see yourself. You are extremely judgmental. Based on what? You will say what is written in the bible. The Pharisees also judged people from the bible. Yet Jesus seemed to go a lot easier on those who broke physical commandments than those who judged them for it.

So in fact you claim a lot. You can't play innocent with me. I see through you. I'm trying to reach your inner man. But the outer man is very head strong and now trying coyness. All tactics of the flesh.

Why do you keep insisting that everyone is a "namer and claimer"?

You are especially so. God says something that isn't yet real as if it is. He is God. When a human does the very same thing...it is called a lie. But your religious spectacles have made you blind to lying...as if telling a lie is following God. That's the downward spiral that all conservatives fall into...if they keep thinking their way down the spiral.

Jesus offered me a gift and it's only by His grace that I didn't harden my heart so as to refuse it.

You don't yet realize that grace is deceitful. You are offered a TEST...to see what you will do with it. And you act as if you are so priviledged (which we are by a gift of grace) that God is beyond testing you to see what your ego will do. Those who latch onto the gift to be uplifted by it...will suffer condemnation on judgment day. We are to fear the Lord, rather and go downward...into humility. That's why Christ is our guide in this. Jesus is the most humble person in the universe. He humbled Himself to take on our sins and abuses...even as He was trying to teach us how to live an eternal kind of life. And He didn't do that to molly-coddle the self-esteem of people. One should ONLY see a gift as something to give to another...not keep for oneself. That is the test. And very few will pass it.

It's not of my own, and I see and know very well that in me is no good thing, apart from His gift.

That gift may just be puffing up what is of your own and has nothing good in it. Think it through.

I'm not going to refuse it now as you apparently would have me and everyone do to make us fall away from grace. What is your spiritual condition that you would try to do that?

That's not the point. The gift has to be seen as a responsibility, not a priviledge in itself. Falling from grace is not what you think it is.

You have to climb out of that ditch to see that falling from grace means you are in a ditch rather than on the road of holiness..the WAY that is IN Christ.

A liberal believer HATES holiness. A conservative believer HATES righteousness. And all this rebellion is covered up by the gift of God. For now. The solution is always the cross...and we being broken and cut away on it.

What you should be doing is learning righteousness...but you won't thinking you already have it as a "gift"....and without seeking for it.

 

[Lizbeth]

You have not understood anything beyond a dogmatic belief up to this point. You are not going to understand anything I try explaining to you.

Pardon me Epi, but aren't you the one being dogmatic and Phariseeical about this whole subject? Not in the same vein and Jesus and the Apostles led and fed the flock.

 

[Lizbeth]

So then what do you judge from? What is your platform to judge people outside the faith? You don't see yourself. You are extremely judgmental. Based on what? You will say what is written in the bible. The Pharisees also judged people from the bible. Yet Jesus seemed to go a lot easier on those who broke physical commandments than those who judged them for it.

So in fact you claim a lot. You can't play innocent with me. I see through you. I'm trying to reach your inner man. But the outer man is very head strong and now trying coyness. All tactics of the flesh.


You are especially so. God says something that isn't yet real as if it is. He is God. When a human does the very same thing...it is called a lie. But your religious spectacles have made you blind to lying...as if telling a lie is following God. That's the downward spiral that all conservatives fall into...if they keep thinking their way down the spiral.


You don't yet realize that grace is deceitful. You are offered a TEST...to see what you will do with it. And you act as if you are so priviledged (which we are by a gift of grace) that God is beyond testing you to see what your ego will do. Those who latch onto the gift to be uplifted by it...will suffer condemnation on judgment day. We are to fear the Lord, rather and go downward...into humility. That's why Christ is our guide in this. Jesus is the most humble person in the universe. He humbled Himself to take on our sins and abuses...even as He was trying to teach us how to live an eternal kind of life. And He didn't do that to molly-coddle the self-esteem of people. One should ONLY see a gift as something to give to another...not keep for oneself. That is the test. And very few will pass it.


That gift may just be puffing up what is of your own and has nothing good in it. Think it through.

That's not the point. The gift has to be seen as a responsibility, not a priviledge in itself. Falling from grace is not what you think it is.

You have to climb out of that ditch to see that falling from grace means you are in a ditch rather than on the road of holiness..the WAY that is IN Christ.

A liberal believer HATES holiness. A conservative believer HATES righteousness. And all this rebellion is covered up by the gift of God. For now. The solution is always the cross...and we being broken and cut away on it.

What you should be doing is learning righteousness...but you won't thinking you already have it as a "gift"....and without seeking for it.

Anyone would first need to demonstrate discernment as well as a love and care for souls before I could consider any assessment of theirs. So far I've only seen demonstrated a lack of both unfortunately......over and over and over again.

 

[Episkopos]

Pardon me Epi, but aren't you the one being dogmatic and Phariseeical about this whole subject? Not in the same vein and Jesus and the Apostles led and fed the flock.

I'm dealing with unbelief mainly. How did Jesus treat those who thought they could see but were blind? It one thing to sit in a boat and discuss things, but quite another when the boat is tipped so far over to one side that there is no place to sit.