When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[VictoryinJesus]

ok, we can agree or not, that wasn't the subject I was really trying to get to about who the guy was sleeping with.
I was trying to find an example of a brand being plucked from the fire regardless of the "sin" .
And what it means to be put through the all consuming fire.

As far as the man sleeping with his father's wife, it makes me think of Ham, Noah's son..


Gen 9:20
And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Gen 9:21
And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:22
And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Gen 9:23
And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

Lev 20:11
And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


1Co 5:1
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3
For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

So Paul tells them to deliver the guy to the Sanhedrin to be judged according to the law of Moses.
But when Paul writes again he tells them to forgive him and bring him back into the fold.

Imagine if Paul was an Ambassador for the United States..

just kidding..

Pro 13:17
A wicked messenger falleth into mischief: but a faithful ambassador is health.

Eph 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph 6:20
For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
Ambassador of reconciliation..

2Co 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

See the first is to destructioin of the carnal man and the second is reconciliation of the spirit in man.
The law brought us to Christ.

So if someone sins and they are sent to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, and goes about seeking whom he may devour, then when Satan gets cast into the lake of fire, does that mean that sin will no longer be in the world ?
Because if there is no sin, then there is no carnal flesh left to be devoured.
His job is complete.

Just thinking..


Hugs

I understand that isn’t the focus. Thanks for sharing your thoughts…I always love reading your thoughts. To me it is important “having his fathers wife”. It seems important with understanding why “So Paul tells them to deliver the guy to the Sanhedrin to be judged according to the law of Moses.”

As for a brand plucked from the fire.
I do like where he says to remove the filthy garment and says “I’ll provide him a Garment”…for a brand to be removed from the fire, it had to be in the fire…?

 

[Ziggy]

I understand that isn’t the focus. Thanks for sharing your thoughts…I always love reading your thoughts. To me it is important “having his fathers wife”. It seems important with understanding why “So Paul tells them to deliver the guy to the Sanhedrin to be judged according to the law of Moses.”

As for a brand plucked from the fire.
I do like where he says to remove the filthy garment and says “I’ll provide him a Garment”…for a brand to be removed from the fire, it had to be in the fire…?

2Co 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

We all will be salted with fire and this earthly house of sin we reside in eventually gets dissolved of the dross, and we are clothed upon by Christ himself, within and without. The cup washed on the inside and the outside.

Mat 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

And if you don't do it, God will help you be clean by putting you in the fiery furnace and coming out like a Daniel. Full of Faith and clothed in God's Glory.
Amen

Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

The fire didn't consume Daniel or his friends because they had Faith.
Hugs

 

[3 Resurrections]

I already showed you that the fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest but they served Baalpeor. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. That is written in scripture.

God no longer regards the mass of humanity in terms of Jew and Gentile anymore. Didn't you get the memo about the New Covenant? And even though it was Jewish tribal members that composed the resurrected 144,000 First-fruits back in AD 33 - that was because God still had the 70-week prophecy running its course that was dedicated to the history of Daniel's people and their holy city. After that 70th week ended in AD 37, the gospel evangelism went abroad to ALL the nations indiscriminately via the New Covenant. The next bodily resurrection event was composed of the great unnumbered multitude coming indiscriminately from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. There are no more Jew and Gentile separate categories in God's eyes - only sons of God or bastards - wheat or tares - good fish or bad - sheep or goats - pick your comparison.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with barley harvest. The 144,000 are first fruits of the fall fruit harvest confirmed in Revelation 14. Grapes are fruit.

I think you are confusing that second sickle harvest of the grapes in Rev. 14:17-20 with the first "dried" harvest of the earth in Rev. 14:14-16. Christ by Himself with a sickle harvested the first "dried" harvest, but an angel with another sickle harvested the vine-of-the-earth grape harvest. That second harvest of grapes earned the wrath of God by being crushed in the winepress outside the city. These were two different scenarios altogether that took place at two different time periods - one "dried" harvest in AD 33 and the other "grape" harvest in AD 70.

Scripture proves differently.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Those were "harpers" harping with their harps in heaven and singing that song before the throne. It wasn't the 144,000 who were there doing that singing in heaven. The 144,000 resurrected First-fruits were still on earth. The point of their being the only ones who could "learn that song" being sung in heaven by the "harpers" proves that the experience that the 144,000 First-fruits resurrected saints would pass through would be a unique one that had never occurred before. The 144,000 resurrected First-fruits were "sealed" so that they could pass through the experience of the "second death" of the city of Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 period without receiving any injury at all while the city was disintegrating all around them.

The 144,000 have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with those raised from the dead when Jesus was raised. The 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest.

You really don't know what to do with that group of many resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints, do you? Their footprints are all over the New Testament, and it seems you can't recognize those verses for who they were referring to. It's a rather common problem for most, so you are in plenty of company. "FIRST-fruits" is NOT SECOND of anything. "FIRST" is "FIRST".

Jesus did not destroy the city of Jerusalem or the Temple. Your point is mute. Use common sense if nothing more.

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say it was Jesus who destroyed the city of Jerusalem and its temple, it was "THE PEOPLE of the Prince who shall come" (Messiah the Prince) who did this. Christ Jesus's OWN PEOPLE the Zealot Jews did this to the city of Jerusalem and its temple by treading the holy city underfoot for those 42 months from late AD 66 until early AD 70. There was civil war going on inside the city between the Zealot factions battling each other that tore the city to pieces between them. The competing Zealot factions were a worse plague upon the besieged inhabitants of Jerusalem than anything the Romans ever did.

Never happened. There is no record of Jesus returning. False conclusion.

You were not an eye-witness back in AD 70, so you have no grounds for making such a denial of what Christ promised to do back then in the first century. And you are wrong about their not being any evidence of Christ's first-century return. There is archaeological proof - not that you would believe it.

 

[3 Resurrections]

None who have been made physically alive again became immortal

Of course they did. You are inventing a "Grade A" and "Grade B" resurrection method, and scripture presents no such differences in the process of a bodily resurrection for the saints.

You're confusing being physically resurrected from death with immortal life. NONE shall be raised immortal & incorruptible until the seventh trumpet sounds.

And you are inventing a difference between a physical resurrection from death and the change to immortal life. These are one and the same. Anyone raised to physical life in scripture was given a changed, immortal, glorified body that would never die again. NOBODY DIES TWICE. Scripture declares that to be an impossibility in both Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 20:36.

Christ said that some with Him would not die before they know/understand (SEE), through the power of His Spirit, that Christ had come with power to save to the uttermost whosoever believed on Him. Nowhere does Christ say His first century disciples would physically see Christ return to this earth.

Here you are grossly misquoting Christ in this Matthew 16:27-28 passage. NOT a good idea. Christ is quite clearly teaching that some He was speaking to at that time would live to see His coming in glory with the angels, and giving rewards to everyone according to their works. It amazes me how people try to avoid this plain statement of a first-century bodily return of Christ at all costs.

And it would seem you don't even really understand what being "saved to the uttermost" actually means. It involves the final change of a saint's bodily remains into an incorruptible, immortal, glorified state which is able to stand before God in heaven with fully-restored, face-to-face fellowship with our Creator. Nothing of the saints of God gets left in the dust of the grave. It is all eventually redeemed - spirit, soul, and body as well - since all of those things have been purchased by Christ's blood sacrifice.

 

[The Light]

God no longer regards the mass of humanity in terms of Jew and Gentile anymore. Didn't you get the memo about the New Covenant? And even though it was Jewish tribal members that composed the resurrected 144,000 First-fruits back in AD 33 - that was because God still had the 70-week prophecy running its course that was dedicated to the history of Daniel's people and their holy city. After that 70th week ended in AD 37, the gospel evangelism went abroad to ALL the nations indiscriminately via the New Covenant. The next bodily resurrection event was composed of the great unnumbered multitude coming indiscriminately from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. There are no more Jew and Gentile separate categories in God's eyes - only sons of God or bastards - wheat or tares - good fish or bad - sheep or goats - pick your comparison.

Yes I got the memo. But I also understand that blindness will not be removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

and this.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

No seals are opened. The 144,000 first fruits cannot happen until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

You disregard God's timing that is clearly written.

I think you are confusing that second sickle harvest of the grapes in Rev. 14:17-20 with the first "dried" harvest of the earth in Rev. 14:14-16. Christ by Himself with a sickle harvested the first "dried" harvest, but an angel with another sickle harvested the vine-of-the-earth grape harvest. That second harvest of grapes earned the wrath of God by being crushed in the winepress outside the city. These were two different scenarios altogether that took place at two different time periods - one "dried" harvest in AD 33 and the other "grape" harvest in AD 70.

No. You are dreaming things up. Yes Jesus swung the sickle, but he was harvesting fruit. The angel then swung his sickle and cast the unrighteous grapes into the wrath of God.

Those were "harpers" harping with their harps in heaven and singing that song before the throne. It wasn't the 144,000 who were there doing that singing in heaven. The 144,000 resurrected First-fruits were still on earth. The point of their being the only ones who could "learn that song" being sung in heaven by the "harpers" proves that the experience that the 144,000 First-fruits resurrected saints would pass through would be a unique one that had never occurred before. The 144,000 resurrected First-fruits were "sealed" so that they could pass through the experience of the "second death" of the city of Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 period without receiving any injury at all while the city was disintegrating all around them.

Again, you are just making things up.

The 144,000 are first fruits and they are redeemed FROM THE EARTH.

The 144,000 are sealed when they become Christians.

You really don't know what to do with that group of many resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints, do you? Their footprints are all over the New Testament, and it seems you can't recognize those verses for who they were referring to. It's a rather common problem for most, so you are in plenty of company. "FIRST-fruits" is NOT SECOND of anything. "FIRST" is "FIRST".

I know exactly who the saints that are resurrected right after Jesus is. They are the first fruits of the first harvest. The fig tree has two harvests. One will be like the days of Noah and one like the days of Lot.

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say it was Jesus who destroyed the city of Jerusalem and its temple, it was "THE PEOPLE of the Prince who shall come" (Messiah the Prince) who did this. Christ Jesus's OWN PEOPLE the Zealot Jews did this to the city of Jerusalem and its temple by treading the holy city underfoot for those 42 months from late AD 66 until early AD 70. There was civil war going on inside the city between the Zealot factions battling each other that tore the city to pieces between them. The competing Zealot factions were a worse plague upon the besieged inhabitants of Jerusalem than anything the Romans ever did.

The Temple that will be destroyed has not been built yet. Everything is ready including the red heifers.

And it was the Romans who destroyed the Temple and the city, not the Jews.

You were not an eye-witness back in AD 70, so you have no grounds for making such a denial of what Christ promised to do back then in the first century. And you are wrong about their not being any evidence of Christ's first-century return. There is archaeological proof - not that you would believe it.

You seem to be off by close to a couple of thousand years

 

[rwb]

Of course they did. You are inventing a "Grade A" and "Grade B" resurrection method, and scripture presents no such differences in the process of a bodily resurrection for the saints.

The Word of God recorded by the Apostle Paul disagrees with you! He very plainly tells us that none of the faithful dead, not even faithful saints still alive when Christ comes the second and only time, will be changed from mortal & corruptible body of death to immortal & incorruptible lives that shall never die. Read the passage carefully from 1Cor 15 I've already given you! If those first century people, physically resurrected bodily were made immortal, why is there no evidence of people who died still alive? Do you understand the difference between mortal and immortal body?

And you are inventing a difference between a physical resurrection from death and the change to immortal life. These are one and the same.

Prove it by showing any one of those first century people resurrected from death who are still alive and can never die?

Here you are grossly misquoting Christ in this Matthew 16:27-28 passage. NOT a good idea. Christ is quite clearly teaching that some He was speaking to at that time would live to see His coming in glory with the angels, and giving rewards to everyone according to their works. It amazes me how people try to avoid this plain statement of a first-century bodily return of Christ at all costs.

And it would seem you don't even really understand what being "saved to the uttermost" actually means. It involves the final change of a saint's bodily remains into an incorruptible, immortal, glorified state which is able to stand before God in heaven with fully-restored, face-to-face fellowship with our Creator. Nothing of the saints of God gets left in the dust of the grave. It is all eventually redeemed - spirit, soul, and body as well - since all of those things have been purchased by Christ's blood sacrifice.

Your imagination and erroneous doctrines have led you far astray from biblical truths!

 

[Timtofly]

Notice that Revelation 11:12 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the events that occur when the 7th trumpet blown by an angel occurs. There is a rapture to heaven of the two witnesses BEFORE the seventh trumpet blown by an angel sounds.

This is not correct. The 2 witnesses are in the last 42 months, after the 7th Trumpet has already sounded.

The 7th Trumpet sounded 42 months before the 2 witnesses are killed.

The week of the 7th Trumpet is the week mentioned in Daniel 9:27.

The days of the 7th Trumpet should be a week long event. After 3.5 days, Satan is given the Kingdom as the 8th king for 42 months. The last 3.5 days of the 7th Trumpet is after the 42 months end, while the 2 witnesses are laying there for 3.5 days.

The same 3.5 days the vials of God's wrath are poured out. The earthquake in Revelation 11 is the same one in Revelation 16 at the 7th vial. Satan may not get 42 months. That seems to be what no one here wants to figure out about the Second Coming and the rapture. Daniel 9:27 is not 7 years, but 7 days. The 42 months splits 7 days into two halves, not a 7 year period into two halves. There are not 3.5 years after the 42 months given to Satan, but only 3.5 days.

We won't even know what is going to happen until God confirms the Atonement during the days of 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is the final roll call. The beheaded are the last ones to be gathered. If there are no future humans who will be beheaded, Satan will not even get 42 months. Revelation 13 will not happen. Armageddon will not happen. Armageddon is not the Second Coming. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Word of God recorded by the Apostle Paul disagrees with you! He very plainly tells us that none of the faithful dead, not even faithful saints still alive when Christ comes the second and only time, will be changed from mortal & corruptible body of death to immortal & incorruptible lives that shall never die. Read the passage carefully from 1Cor 15 I've already given you! If those first century people, physically resurrected bodily were made immortal, why is there no evidence of people who died still alive? Do you understand the difference between mortal and immortal body?

We believers have been promised that after our physical death, God will "change our vile body" in the resurrection process so that it will be "fashioned like unto His glorious body" (Philippians 3:21). This is a "CHANGE" (not an ex-change that dumps the old body form in the trash). This "CHANGE" alters the condition of those fleshly remains of the saints so that they become immortal and incorruptible and can never die again, just as the body of Christ after "being raised from the dead, dieth no more; death has no more dominion over Him." (Romans 6:9).

Paul does not disagree with what I stated. Paul duplicates this same information of Philippians in 1 Cor. 15. The same "IT" body that goes into the dust of the grave is the same "IT" body that is raised in a changed, incorruptible condition. "IT is sown a natural body: IT is raised a spiritual body". The same "IT" body is being altered and renovated to render IT fit for a heavenly abode with God in the resurrection process by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I do agree with you, however, that the living saints who have never yet died do NOT receive a change into the incorruptible and immortal state. No believer receives that change of their physical body form until they have passed through the one-time-only physical death process that is appointed for all men (Heb. 9:27). No believer is ever promised a translation-type of change to the incorruptible and immortal condition at Christ's return if they have not yet physically died.

As for those who were given a resurrected body in scripture (such as Lazarus, the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, etc.), these were all raptured off this planet back in AD 70 at Christ second coming return, as He promised He would do before that first-century generation had passed. That is why those bodily-resurrected individuals are no longer around today.

Prove it by showing any one of those first century people resurrected from death who are still alive and can never die?

Scripture tells us that, once a saint is bodily resurrected, there is no possibility of them dying ever again. Hebrews 9:27 tells us this, as well as Luke 20:35-36, and the passages I gave above that compare our own promised resurrection body that will be fashioned to duplicate the resurrected body of Christ, who "dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him." (Romans 6:9 cp. Philippians 3:21).

Your imagination and erroneous doctrines have led you far astray from biblical truths!

It is your own teachings that are attempting to remove part of of our promised salvation inheritance. Our entire being as a child of God is to receive redemption - spirit, soul, AND BODY, which have all been purchased by Christ and belong to Him. God does not throw in the trash anything that belongs to Christ, and that includes the saints' physical body forms which are His property - bought with His own blood.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No. You are dreaming things up. Yes Jesus swung the sickle, but he was harvesting fruit.

What am I "dreaming up"? The Greek word for that first sickle harvest by the newly-crowned Son of Man sitting on a cloud is "exeranthe", which means "dried up" or "withered". This isn't fresh fruit being harvested here. These were long dead saints who were resurrected by being "harvested" out of the earth. And this Revelation 14:14-16 harvest cannot possibly be the resurrection at the second coming of Christ, because at that second-coming of Christ, "the reapers are the angels" we are told in Matthew 13:39. Here is Revelation 14:14-16, it is the Son of Man ALONE who is doing the "reaping" here by Himself. Just as it was the newly-resurrected, ascending Christ who led that "multitude of captives" (the Matt. 27:52-53 saints) out of the grave and gave them as "gifts to men" (Ephesians 4:8-12).

Again, you are just making things up.

The 144,000 are first fruits and they are redeemed FROM THE EARTH.

The 144,000 are sealed when they become Christians.

To be "redeemed FROM THE EARTH" is to be bodily-resurrected out of it, as described for the "redemption of the body" in Romans 8:23. The 144,000 resurrected First-fruits saints were "sealed" to RESERVE them in that protected status until their eventual transport to heaven coming up when Christ returned for all the resurrected saints in AD 70. A "seal" in scripture puts the promise of something on hold until it can be performed in real time.

The Temple that will be destroyed has not been built yet. Everything is ready including the red heifers.

To discourage such designs for a rebuilt temple, God has before squashed plans for rebuilding a Jerusalem temple by rather dramatic methods back in 363 AD under the urging of the emperor Julian. It would be no problem for God to prevent such plans again. I believe the red heifers will probably die of old age before they can be utilized in a vain attempt to renew such a "weak and beggarly" structure.

And it was the Romans who destroyed the Temple and the city, not the Jews.

Daniel 9:26 said it would be "the PEOPLE of the Prince that shall come" (Messiah the coming Prince just spoken of in Dan. 9:25). Christ's OWN PEOPLE would do that destruction and desolating work on the city and the sanctuary. Josephus was an eye-witness of the Zealots' carnage and destruction of their own city, and confirmed that "these beasts born among ourselves" were the main cause of Jerusalem's woes and destruction rather than the Romans who came to put the nails in the coffin.

Revelation 17:16 also duplicates the information as to who would destroy Mystery Babylon / Jerusalem. It was the ten horns on the Judean Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness who hated the whore that Jerusalem had become, and would "make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire." (Rev. 17:16). This wasn't Rome being spoken about here. It was the ten horns of the Judean Scarlet Beast who turned on Jerusalem with such hatred. Civil war in Jerusalem under the competing Zealot factions was its worst enemy.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

This harvest is after the Second Coming. Jesus and the angels were already on the earth. Jesus was personally sowing this harvest, by being present on the earth.

This is the final harvest after the sheep and goats. This is not the church, nor Israel of the sheep and goats. This is the third harvest after the church, and after Israel has "escaped into the wilderness". Neither the church nor Israel are on the earth during the 7 Thunders.

The 7 Thunders happen between the 6th Trumpet/2nd woe, and the 7th Trumpet/3rd woe. Revelation 10.

Revelation 14 is after the wheat and tares. It is the winepress of God's wrath. The gleanings after all the other harvests.

 

[Timtofly]

The first resurrection is NOT saints being physically resurrected to physical life again as so many imagine.

The first resurrection is the only physical resurrection. You don't get resurrected the second time. You get the second birth the second time after a physical birth. There is only one literal resurrection, and that is physical. The other "resurrection" is as people imagine from their imagination, as that resurrection is symbolic. Paul was imagining the spiritual condition as being dead and in need of a resurrection. That is not the first resurrection. It is a symbolic imagination of the spiritual birth.

The first resurrection was in reference to having one's head cut off. Was that a spiritual beheading? How does one experience a spiritual beheading?

The first birth happens. The first death happens next. Then the first resurrection happens. None of those apply to anything spiritual. They all apply to different states of the physical body.

 

[Timtofly]

No, I'm saying that the second coming is at the 6th seal before the 7th seal wrath of God is opnened.

The 7th Seal opened just produced silence in heaven for a half an hour. There is no wrath but sad quietness that now many names will be removed from the sealed book, as now it can be edited. Before the Seals are removed, nothing can be blotted out, as in editing this book, by placing a blot of ink over a name thus removing that name.

It is sorta like released Government documents that are heavily redacted. The word is still there but useless, as all one can see is black ink blocking the word.

The Second Coming is before Jacob's trouble, the first 6 Trumpets. That is the time called the greatest trouble ever for Israel. That is not God's wrath, but justice in the point two thirds of Israel living on the earth at that time will be tossed into the LOF during the Trumpets.

The 7 Thunders are the harvest of all the Gentiles on the earth. As Jesus declared in Matthew 13, the vast majority of Gentiles will be tossed immediately into the LOF. The redeemed Gentiles will wait in the barn. That is the post Second Coming firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom, who will wait on the sea of Glass in Revelation. That is the location as referring to "the barn".

Not only will the church be removed first pre-trib, the Second Coming happens before the tribulation of the separation of Israel into sheep and goats. All of Israel will be removed one way or the other. Then a vast majority of the remaining Gentile nations will be removed. So not many are going to be left on the earth by the time the 7th Trumpet sounds.

God's wrath is not until after Satan's 42 months are over, and by that time, all the beheaded will be gone, and probably thousands of others just being killed for the fun of it, during this time of utter desolation. This is going to be way worse than any human apocalyptic movie imagined.

People are just not getting the fact that not many will be left, and each event John describes, removes people, instead of leaving people behind. The point is by Armageddon no one is left on earth in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Those on white horses just left that "heavenly barn" where they had been gathered prior to the 7th Trumpet. The beheaded will not be resurrected until after those on horses set up their own living arrangement on the earth. These are the redeemed wheat and sheep, not the church. The church remains in Paradise until this current creation is handed back to God. The firstfruits starting with the 144k live on earth during the Day of the Lord. The 144k were sealed before the 7th Seal was opened. The sheep were redeemed during the Trumpets. The wheat was sown during the Thunders. They were not found in Paradise. They waited on the sea of glass the "wilderness" John tells us about, as that place of safety.

 

[Timtofly]

Those two false teachers either knew about or had personally encountered some of those Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints. The mistaken error in their teaching was in presuming that the Matthew 27:52-53 saints being resurrected was the only resurrection "harvest" that would ever take place. They were wrong, of course, because there were going to be two more group resurrection events after that one.

Those resurrected at the Cross were not around to pass on information to people. They all ascended into Paradise, Sunday morning with Jesus. No one knew much about them, because they were only in town for 3 days.

They were not resurrected to live out another life on earth. They could not enter Paradise on their own. They had to be taken by Jesus.

The same at the rapture. Those same people will come with Jesus from Paradise, to meet those from earth in the air. Those people are not coming for physical bodies, they took those bodies when they ascended 1994 years ago. They have had those bodies and will follow Jesus with those bodies at the 5th Seal. The entire church body, at one moment will all put on robes of white. That is when all put on the spirit, to be completely restored as sons of God.

They did miss that resurrection. They were not physically dead, so it did not even pertain to them. One had to be physically dead. Now, no one in Paradise have been physically dead. All they have done, is simply left Adam's dead corruptible flesh behind, as it will return to dust never to be seen again. But God gives each soul a permanent incorruptible physical body to enjoy Paradise with.

 

[rwb]

We believers have been promised that after our physical death, God will "change our vile body" in the resurrection process so that it will be "fashioned like unto His glorious body" (Philippians 3:21). This is a "CHANGE" (not an ex-change that dumps the old body form in the trash). This "CHANGE" alters the condition of those fleshly remains of the saints so that they become immortal and incorruptible and can never die again, just as the body of Christ after "being raised from the dead, dieth no more; death has no more dominion over Him." (Romans 6:9).

Not before the hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds. As written, when our natural body dies, our body returns to the dust from which it came and our spirit returns to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 3:20 (KJV) All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

As spiritual body after our physical body dies, we shall be in heaven with the Lord until time given this earth for the spiritual Kingdom of God to be complete shall be no longer. That shall be in the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

As for those who were given a resurrected body in scripture (such as Lazarus, the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, etc.), these were all raptured off this planet back in AD 70 at Christ second coming return, as He promised He would do before that first-century generation had passed. That is why those bodily-resurrected individuals are no longer around today.

There shall be none caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air until the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. The saints that came out of their graves went into the HOLY CITY. After the cross and resurrection Jerusalem of Old was no longer the holy city of God. It ceased being the holy temple and holy city, and was declared a desolation unto God.

Matthew 23:37 (KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:38 (KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The only holy city after the death and resurrection of Christ is found in heaven, where the Father is. That's where the spirit of Christ went when His body died, and that's where this spiritual body of saints that arose from the grave ascended. There they appeared to an innumerable company of angels and the hosts of heaven.

Revelation 21:2 (KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Hebrews 12:22 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Hebrews 12:23 (KJV) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:24 (KJV) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Scripture tells us that, once a saint is bodily resurrected, there is no possibility of them dying ever again.

Which is why NONE who were physically resurrected of Old were resurrected IMMORTAL! Immortal beings do not die! They resurrected with the same flesh and blood bodies they died in, to grow old and die again.

John 12:30-32 (KJV) Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This passage from the book of Hebrews is speaking of Jesus who would suffer for the sins of the world, and as a man dying but once. And through His one atoning, sacrificial death came judgment upon this world. This passage does NOT say that any human being, like Lazarus who was miraculously raised from the dead could never again die. Clearly, he, and all those others miraculously raised have also died a again.

Hebrews 9:26-28 (KJV) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Men -
Strong's Greek Dictionary
444. ἄνθρωπος anthropos (ánthrōpos)
Search for G444 in KJVSL; in KJV.
ἄνθρωπος ánthrōpos, anth'-ro-pos
from G435 and ὤψ ṓps (the countenance; from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:—certain, man.

No other men beside the God-Man, Christ Jesus, our Lord it is written shall die but ONCE and NO MORE, because death no longer has dominion over HIM! That is not true for those who were bodily raised to physical life because they have ALL died again, death still had dominion over THEM.

Romans 6:9 (KJV) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes I got the memo. But I also understand that blindness will not be removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

and this.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

No seals are opened. The 144,000 first fruits cannot happen until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

You disregard God's timing that is clearly written.


No. You are dreaming things up. Yes Jesus swung the sickle, but he was harvesting fruit. The angel then swung his sickle and cast the unrighteous grapes into the wrath of God.


Again, you are just making things up.

The 144,000 are first fruits and they are redeemed FROM THE EARTH.

The 144,000 are sealed when they become Christians.


I know exactly who the saints that are resurrected right after Jesus is. They are the first fruits of the first harvest. The fig tree has two harvests. One will be like the days of Noah and one like the days of Lot.

The Temple that will be destroyed has not been built yet. Everything is ready including the red heifers.

And it was the Romans who destroyed the Temple and the city, not the Jews.


You seem to be off by close to a couple of thousand years

Good post.
The 144k solidly testify that the main rapture of 1 thes 4 must be pretrib.

 

[rebuilder 454]

So when is the resurrection of the dead, and the living in Christ being caught up to the Lord?


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall “rise first”: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”


Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at “the last day.”

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at “the last day.”

So it is clear, the dead are raised on “the last day”.

Notice the judgment is also on the last day as well….

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in “the last day.”
The Judgment of saints is shown on the last day…. Revelation 20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and “judgment was given unto them:”and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Confirmed here….

Daniel 7:21-22 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and “judgment was given to the saints”of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”


When do saints posses the kingdoms of this world?

Revelation 11:15 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”


Daniel was told when he shall stand in the lot of his inheritance, and that was not until “the end.”


Daniel 12:13 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at “the end of the days.”


Notice in the above, (Daniel 7:22) Christ first comes and the judgment is given to the saints on the last day.

So when does Christ come?

Son of Gods coming last day….


Luke 17:26-31

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until “the day”that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in “the day”when the Son of man is revealed.”


Notice above it was “the day” Noah entered they were destroyed, and “the same day” Lot left Sodom they were destroyed.

At the last day, at the Last Trump….

1Corinthians 15:51-52 “Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at “the last trump:” for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed”

Notice at “the last trump”the dead are raised, and so what happens at the last trump…


Revelation 10:7 7 But in the days of the voice of “the seventh angel,” when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be “finished,” as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:12 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:15 15 And “the seventh angel sounded;” and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Also notice the elect are still on earth during the great tribulation and wrath of God.


Matthew 24:22 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 7:14 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 16:15 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


All the scriptures agree there is no resurrection of the dead or the living in Christ until “the last day,”and at “the last trump.”

Do you look at the pretrib rapture verses in your assessment?

 

[The Light]

This is not correct. The 2 witnesses are in the last 42 months, after the 7th Trumpet has already sounded.

The 7th Trumpet sounded 42 months before the 2 witnesses are killed.

The week of the 7th Trumpet is the week mentioned in Daniel 9:27.

The days of the 7th Trumpet should be a week long event. After 3.5 days, Satan is given the Kingdom as the 8th king for 42 months. The last 3.5 days of the 7th Trumpet is after the 42 months end, while the 2 witnesses are laying there for 3.5 days.

The same 3.5 days the vials of God's wrath are poured out. The earthquake in Revelation 11 is the same one in Revelation 16 at the 7th vial. Satan may not get 42 months. That seems to be what no one here wants to figure out about the Second Coming and the rapture. Daniel 9:27 is not 7 years, but 7 days. The 42 months splits 7 days into two halves, not a 7 year period into two halves. There are not 3.5 years after the 42 months given to Satan, but only 3.5 days.

We won't even know what is going to happen until God confirms the Atonement during the days of 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is the final roll call. The beheaded are the last ones to be gathered. If there are no future humans who will be beheaded, Satan will not even get 42 months. Revelation 13 will not happen. Armageddon will not happen. Armageddon is not the Second Coming. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming.

None of what you are saying is correct. When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord...........The millennial kingdom is set up. Wrath is over.

Rev 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Further proof is here.
Revelation 11
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

You have disregarded common sense and are beating things together with a sledge, making them fit.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Both grow together until “the Harvest”(singular harvest)

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The only Place anyone is burned is in the GWTJ after the Millennium
So that gathering can not possibly be the rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?​

…at the 7th trump— after the AC has come and done his abominations.

No
The AC overcomes the saints.
All gentiles are beheaded that refuse the mark.
Postrib rapture is impossible