When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[Ronald David Bruno]

So when is the resurrection of the dead, and the living in Christ being caught up to the Lord?


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall “rise first”: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”


Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at “the last day.”

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at “the last day.”

So it is clear, the dead are raised on “the last day”.

Notice the judgment is also on the last day as well….

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in “the last day.”
The Judgment of saints is shown on the last day…. Revelation 20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and “judgment was given unto them:”and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Confirmed here….

Daniel 7:21-22 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and “judgment was given to the saints”of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”


When do saints posses the kingdoms of this world?

Revelation 11:15 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”


Daniel was told when he shall stand in the lot of his inheritance, and that was not until “the end.”


Daniel 12:13 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at “the end of the days.”


Notice in the above, (Daniel 7:22) Christ first comes and the judgment is given to the saints on the last day.

So when does Christ come?

Son of Gods coming last day….


Luke 17:26-31

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until “the day”that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in “the day”when the Son of man is revealed.”


Notice above it was “the day” Noah entered they were destroyed, and “the same day” Lot left Sodom they were destroyed.

At the last day, at the Last Trump….

1Corinthians 15:51-52 “Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at “the last trump:” for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed”

Notice at “the last trump”the dead are raised, and so what happens at the last trump…


Revelation 10:7 7 But in the days of the voice of “the seventh angel,” when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be “finished,” as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:12 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:15 15 And “the seventh angel sounded;” and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Also notice the elect are still on earth during the great tribulation and wrath of God.


Matthew 24:22 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 7:14 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 16:15 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


All the scriptures agree there is no resurrection of the dead or the living in Christ until “the last day,”and at “the last trump.”

I have been trying to convince others that the last Trump is #7 (Rev. 11:15).
Of course the Pre-tribbers cannot accept this, nor the Post-tribbers, because it happens isn the middle of the Great Tribulation. I am not sure where, but likely after 1260 days into it.
I think the "last day" you focus in is not the last physical day on the planet ( meaning that the destruction of the sun and moon would anxiously eliminate any more days. That will happen after the Millennial Kingdom with the 2 Peter 3:10 event. The "last day" then is the last day of Satan's rule. He is given a short time and then Christ comes and as you pointed out in Rev. 11:15 at the 7th Trumpet, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
So up until this moment, the kingdoms of the world were influenced and corrupted by Satan. Israel was blessed and at times throughout history, right with God. But then they would at times be influenced by Satan and go off the path and be punished, warred against, enslaved ... The USA has been the most blessed; but look at us now. We have lost our way, so more judgment is soon to come.
Here is a summation of what happens at the 7th Trumpet:
1. The mystery of God is revealed ( Rev. 10:7). What is the mystery of God? I think it is revealed when ...
2. "every eye sees Him" and ...
3. The resurrection is part if this mystery
4. The kingdoms of the world become the Lord's.
5. The dead are resurrected and judged (Rev. 11:18)
6. We receive rewards according to our deeds (Rev. 11:18)
7. The Temple of God is open in heaven (Rev. 11:19.
8. Bowls of Wrath are released. This implies that the dead unbelieving souls in Hades are resurrected, judged and suffer this wrath. And also thise who are alive with he mark of the Beast on earth.

So we don't know the day or the hour, but Jesus gave us a clue to the season in Matthew 24:14, when the gospel has been delivered to every nation and tribe ... "and then the end will come". That has become a reality in our generation. This is the generation spoken of. The clock started to tick in 1948. Add one generation = 70 - 80 years and we are close.

 

[rwb]

When Christ spoke about the hour that "NOW IS", He was speaking of the time back then in the AD 30's - not your time and mine. Back then, individuals on a case-by-case basis were being resurrected to an immortal life (Jairus's daughter, the widow's son, Lazarus, etc.)

If that were true there would be no reason for us to here His Word and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. The hour that NOW is began with the first century disciples of Christ hearing His Word before they physically died and believing. The same way any man who is dead in trespasses and sins may hear according to grace through faith and through the power of His Word and Spirit believe unto life everlasting. This is NOT the hour coming when corpses in the graves will ALL hear His voice and those who have done evil resurrected to damnation, but those who have done good to resurrection life.

John 5:24-25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

YES. HE. DID. On several occasions.

If this is true, then show the verses that prove Christ said He would return to earth in the first century?

 

[3 Resurrections]

If that were true there would be no reason for us to here His Word and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

I don't follow your line of reasoning in that statement. If Christ and His disciples were even THEN raising dead individuals in the cities of Israel from the grave to immortal life during "the hour NOW IS" time period of Christ's earthly ministry, how would that put any limitation on people today believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? The determining factor of whether anyone from Creation forward would receive eternal life is due to their being "IN CHRIST" - or not. And it is "of HIM are ye in Christ Jesus" - not "of US..."..

Salvation is strictly a grace thing, which has always been true under both Old Covenant and New Covenant times. God determined before the foundation of the world who would be His children, and over the process of time, He loses none of them that are His. The belief that a person expresses when hearing the Word of God is just a public manifestation that the Holy Spirit has already generated spiritual life in that person. A person dead in sin doesn't believe anything at all until the Holy Spirit has stirred them into life, enabling them to then hear and see the things of God. Until the Holy Spirit initiates spiritual life in a person, those things are nothing but foolishness unto the natural man. The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the Lord has made them both (Prov. 20:12). We can no more take credit for our spiritual hearing and seeing than we can take credit for our natural senses of hearing and seeing.

But God can instill spiritual life even into a child in utero - at any stage of human development that He so chooses, from a one-celled human zygote upward to a centenarian. Since Christ and the disciples were raising the dead to immortal life in those days of His earthly ministry, then we can know that those individuals were children of God who had once been given spiritual life when they were alive - regardless of whether they had an opportunity to make a public "decision for Christ" before their death or not.

If this is true, then show the verses that prove Christ said He would return to earth in the first century?

Matthew 16:27-28. Christ predicted that there were some of those He was then speaking to who would not have died before they saw Him coming in the glory of His Father with the holy angels, to give rewards to everyone according to their works. Either there are 2,000-year old Israelite people still alive today, or Christ returned in the first-century generation as promised.

Matthew 10:23. "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." The disciples' own personal evangelism efforts in the nation of Israel would not have reached every single city in Israel before Christ's second coming had happened. Either the original 12 disciples are still alive and trying to evangelize the rest of the cities of Israel, or Christ returned as promised in that first-century generation.

Luke 21:32, 36. "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled...Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." That entire list of soon-coming persecutions and disasters leading to Christ's second coming return would start cranking up almost as soon as Christ ascended to heaven. In the book of Acts, the disciples after Pentecost were already being brought before the Sanhedrin councils and being beaten in the synagogues, and delivered up to prisons by the Jewish religious leaders.

These persecutions and the "beginning of sorrows" would come to a head in the "days of vengeance" from AD 66-70 for the nation of Israel. That was when God poured out His wrath on them for Jerusalem's blood guilt of slaying His servants and prophets, and for the betrayal and murder of the Son of God at the Jews' insistence. God has not been waiting almost 2,000 years to answer the blood curse that the Jewish religious leadership urged the people to call down upon their own heads and that of their own children. He fulfilled it in that first-century generation just before His first-century return. Because it was going to be "immediately after the tribulation of those days" when Christ would return in the clouds with great glory (Matt. 24:29-30).

John 21:22. Regarding the beloved disciple whose fate Peter was asking about, "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me." Jesus had determined that this beloved disciple would still be alive at His coming, but that this was not to be Peter's concern, since God had other plans for Peter (which was Peter's martyrdom in AD 67, just before Christ's AD 70 return when he was resurrected and taken to heaven).

Yet this list of references quoting Christ Himself is not the end of the NT testimony regarding a first-century resurrection of the dead at Christ's second coming return. The New Testament writers were not silent about this theme of Christ's first-century return, and their testimonies about it are unanimous.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No, I’m just not trying to read something into that which is not there, like you. Both are gathered together at the same time, more proof….

Matthew 25:31-41​

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King James Version​

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31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

Matthew 13:47-50​

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King James Version​

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47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:28-30​

King James Version​

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28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

All the words of God agree.

Curious what your perspective is on in the OT when Satan stood at the right hand to resist …
Zechariah 3:1-2And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. [2] And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke you, O Satan; even the LORD that has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Or Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand offend you, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

The only thing I can find for rapture in the Bible reference “harpazo” …snatching them out of the fire. Which even Zechariah 3:1-2 speaks of “a brand plucked from the fire”

Jude 1:23 Lexicon: save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

Strong's Greek: 726. ἁρπάζω (harpazó) -- To seize, snatch, take away by force

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Curious what your perspective is on in the OT when Satan stood at the right hand to resist …
Zechariah 3:1-2And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. [2] And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke you, O Satan; even the LORD that has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Fire in scripture is often symbolized as a way of cleansing, or purging. Like having your faith tried by fire, being the baptism of fire.
After which all the impurities (dross) is removed, like the faith of Christ is the gold that has already been tried by fire.
If you notice in verse 4 it says “And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.”

So it is showing the cleansing process of trial by fire.

Or Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand offend you, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

That verse is talking about the importance of removing and putting to death sin in your life, or else you risk being cast into hell. Paul spoke on this as well in
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So Jesus was comparing removing sin from your life, like removing evil body parts

The only thing I can find for rapture in the Bible reference “harpazo” …snatching them out of the fire. Which even Zechariah 3:1-2 speaks of “a brand plucked from the fire”

Jude 1:23 Lexicon: save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

Strong's Greek: 726. ἁρπάζω (harpazó) -- To seize, snatch, take away by force

I don’t believe in the pre-trib rapture doctrine, it is the doctrines of carnally minded men. The resurrection of the saints happens at the last trump, on the last day.

Peace

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Fire in scripture is often symbolized as a way of cleansing, or purging. Like having your faith tried by fire, being the baptism of fire.
After which all the impurities (dross) is removed, like the faith of Christ is the gold that has already been tried by fire.
If you notice in verse 4 it says “And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.”

So it is showing the cleansing process of trial by fire.

“A brand plucked from the fire” sounds like saved from the destruction of the fire. How can “our God is an all consuming Fire” be both destroying and cleansing. Like for example when Paul spoke of pulling one out from the fire. Why pull them out if it’s cleansing? I get it’s said they are different Fires …but I’m not so sure that it’s not the same all consuming Fire but where men means it for harm…God means it for good.

That verse is talking about the importance of removing and putting to death sin in your life, or else you risk being cast into hell. Paul spoke on this as well in
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So Jesus was comparing removing sin from your life, like removing evil body parts

Mostly I was asking about satan standing at the right hand to resist. To me that means Satan is a crafty devil …standing at the right hand instead of at the left… to not be cut off. Sneaky (Imo).
Deceptive.

I don’t believe in the pre-trib rapture doctrine, it is the doctrines of carnally minded men. The resurrection of the saints happens at the last trump, on the last day.

I don’t believe in the rapture presented by Hollywood. But I do see where Paul spoke of removal from the destruction of fire is a catching away. The same word for snatching one out of the fire is used Revelation 12:4-5 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. [5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

[The Light]

No, it makes them the "Firstfruits" of the barley harvest - the FIRST harvest of Israel's agricultural year.

I already showed you that the fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest but they served Baalpeor. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. That is written in scripture.

The 144,000 First-fruits (the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints) were a limited number - comparable to the wave sheaf handful of barley offered in the temple along with the single He-lamb without blemish (Christ the Lamb) in Leviticus 23:9-12. Those 144,000 were a limited number, because - like the wave-sheaf of barley - it showed the promise of a coming "harvest" of saints that would be a great unnumbered multitude.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with barley harvest. The 144,000 are first fruits of the fall fruit harvest confirmed in Revelation 14. Grapes are fruit.

Revelation 14
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

"First-ripe" of the figs is NOT the same as the "First-fruits" wave sheaf of barley. You are mixing up your Israel harvest terms.

Of course it's not the same. The point of saying the first fruits in the fig tree is showing there are two harvests.............two raptures.

Rev. 14 never said that those 144,000 were presented to the throne.

Scripture proves differently.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The 144,000 First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints served as "gifts to men" in those roles of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers in the early church. Their immortal presence served to edify the body of Christ and perfect the saints for the work of the ministry in those days prior to Christ's AD 70 Pentecost day return. If you want to compare the "two wave loaves" offered on Pentecost and made of fine flour and leaven with the dead in Christ and the alive that remained (the already resurrected 144,000 Matt. 27 saints), that works for me. Both groups of resurrected saints were together raptured to heaven with Christ back on Pentecost day in AD 70.

The 144,000 have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with those raised from the dead when Jesus was raised. The 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest.

"AFTER" simply means within the 70th week which immediately followed the 7 weeks and 62 weeks. The overriding purpose of Daniel's 70-week prophecy was to pinpoint the exact year in which the Messiah the Prince would come to His own people, and the year in which His death would end the need for any more sacrifices and oblations. (It is immaterial whether the Jews continued sacrificing in the temple or not - God changed the law concerning this, and there was no further need for sacrifice and oblation after Christ's sacrifice of Himself.) Christ fulfilled all the terms of those 70-week prophecy predictions to the letter, and exactly in the years predicted. That proves His deity. There is no gap anywhere within the intact 490 year timespan of the 70 week prophecy. Daniel wrote that it would be "the PEOPLE of the Prince that shall come" (Messiah the coming Prince) that would destroy the city and the sanctuary. The nationalistic Jewish Zealots themselves were the main cause for "treading underfoot" the holy city for 42 months (Rev. 11:2). It was the competing Zealot factions which came from "Galilee of the Gentiles" that were fighting each other in Jerusalem from AD 66 until early AD 70 that caused the most destruction of the city and the temple grounds - even before the Romans finally showed up again in the spring of AD 70.

Jesus did not destroy the city of Jerusalem or the Temple. Your point is mute. Use common sense if nothing more.

It was more than just John the Revelator who saw the returning Christ in the first century. It was the tribes of Israel within the besieged city of Jerusalem in AD 70 who were mourning when they saw that bodily return of Christ to the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 12:10 predicted this, and Rev. 1:7 repeated this prediction.

Never happened. There is no record of Jesus returning. False conclusion.

When Jesus comes for the Gentiles, part of Israel will have its eyes opened. This has not occurred.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

“A brand plucked from the fire” sounds like saved from the destruction of the fire. How can “our God is an all consuming Fire” be both destroying and cleansing. Like for example when Paul spoke of pulling one out from the fire. Why pull them out if it’s cleansing? I get it’s said they are different Fires …but I’m not so sure that it’s not the same all consuming Fire but where men means it for harm…God means it for good.

Mostly I was asking about satan standing at the right hand to resist. To me that means Satan is a crafty devil …standing at the right hand instead of at the left… to not be cut off. Sneaky (Imo).
Deceptive.


I don’t believe in the rapture presented by Hollywood. But I do see where Paul spoke of removal from the destruction of fire is a catching away. The same word for snatching one out of the fire is used Revelation 12:4-5 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. [5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Pulling one from the fires of hell would be pulling one from the destruction by hell fire. Gods anger and wrath is also shown in scriptures as like a fire that shall never be quenched.

So Gods fire can totally consume by His wrath, or it can cleanse and purify removing all the impurities. In scripture it shows God cleanses by using both water and by fire. But we also see in scripture where God destroyed the earth in Noah’s time by water. But here in the last days it shall be destroyed by fire.

 

[rwb]

I don't follow your line of reasoning in that statement. If Christ and His disciples were even THEN raising dead individuals in the cities of Israel from the grave to immortal life during "the hour NOW IS" time period of Christ's earthly ministry

You're confusing being physically resurrected from death with immortal life. NONE shall be raised immortal & incorruptible until the seventh trumpet sounds. Paul says the resurrection to immortality shall be in a moment and twinkling of an eye. John writes it shall be in "the hour coming" faithful saints shall be resurrected to life. When faithful saints are resurrected from the graves in the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, death shall be swallowed up in victory and there shall be no more death. None who have been made physically alive again became immortal.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The miracle of raising people to physical mortal (not immortal) life again beginning with Christ was preformed to prove that Christ is the Messiah prophesied to come who is our Lord and Savior.

Matthew 16:27-28. Christ predicted that there were some of those He was then speaking to who would not have died before they saw Him coming in the glory of His Father with the holy angels, to give rewards to everyone according to their works. Either there are 2,000-year old Israelite people still alive today, or Christ returned in the first-century generation as promised.

Christ said that some with Him would not die before they know/understand (SEE), through the power of His Spirit, that Christ had come with power to save to the uttermost whosoever believed on Him. Nowhere does Christ say His first century disciples would physically see Christ return to this earth. Christ had already told them the Kingdom of God had come to them, but they could not understand the power of the Kingdom of God through Christ. But they would understand when the Holy Spirit came upon them through the mighty power they witnessed at Pentecost. Then they understood the Son of man had coming in His Kingdom. Rather than waiting for a physical Kingdom of God to come, they began to go out unto all the nations of the world proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom of God has come for whosoever would believe.

Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Matthew 16:27-28 (KJV) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see (through eyes of faith, not physically) the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Acts 2:1-4 (KJV) And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:7 (KJV) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

Acts 2:22-24 (KJV) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Acts 2:30-33 (KJV) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

After being filled with power from the Holy Spirit Christ's disciples were given to understand the Kingdom of God that Christ came to earth with would not be a physical Kingdom of God to come. And that Christ is now, since He ascended to heaven, seated upon His throne in heaven, ruling and reigning over His people.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Pulling one from the fires of hell would be pulling one from the destruction by hell fire. Gods anger and wrath is also shown in scriptures as like a fire that shall never be quenched.

So Gods fire can totally consume by His wrath, or it can cleanse and purify removing all the impurities. In scripture it shows God cleanses by using both water and by fire. But we also see in scripture where God destroyed the earth in Noah’s time by water. But here in the last days it shall be destroyed by fire.

Do you believe in an afterlife place called hell?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Do you believe in an afterlife place called hell?

There is eternal life and also eternal damnation.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

There is eternal life and also eternal damnation.

Ok. I’m just trying to understand what you believe. I loved your thread White garment and a new name

But here …on this thread…it seems like I’m talking to a different person. I grew up southern Baptist and heard some heavyweights hellfire and brimstone preaching. But they also preached the rapture where God —Christ is coming as a thief in the night to snatch the believers up and there will be a time when the world sees all the believers have disappeared. Then comes the man anti-christ onto the scene to deceive those not raptured. Do you see my dilemma? In the same breath hellfire and brimstone …and raptured? It’s hard to trust anyone’s teachings when they say this and then say that …all together. If I question one asking is that the truth? It also makes the whole of it questionable.

Like how Lutherans dissed Catholics, breaking off but instead of starting anew…taking the teachings (Catholic) they like with them and trashing the parts (catholic) they don’t like…making a new branch of the same…only revised it.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Ok. I’m just trying to understand what you believe. I loved your thread White garment and a new name

But here …on this thread…it seems like I’m talking to a different person. I grew up southern Baptist and heard some heavyweights hellfire and brimstone preaching. But they also preached the rapture where God —Christ is coming as a thief in the night to snatch the believers up and there will be a time when the world sees all the believers have disappeared.

A lot of people are taught by carnally minded men, and when someone comes along speaking the Truth by the Spirit they will not receive their testimony. Most of what I fight against in these forums is the doctrines of men. I try to prove my points by using the words of God, as I did in my OP.

Then comes the man anti-christ onto the scene to deceive those not raptured. Do you see my dilemma? In the same breath hellfire and brimstone …and raptured? It’s hard to trust anyone’s teachings when they say this and then say that …all together. If I question one asking is that the truth? It also makes the whole of it questionable.

Like how Lutherans dissed Catholics, breaking off but instead of starting anew…taking the teachings (Catholic) they like with them and trashing the parts (catholic) they don’t like…making a new branch of the same…only revised it.

That is another false teaching of men, that antichrist is “a man”yet to come in the future. The words of God tell us that antichrist is a singular spirit that works in many deceivers.
And we are told this spirit called antichrist has already come into the world when John wrote those words.

I don’t tell people to seek understanding from me, nor any man for that matter. I tell people to seek understanding from the Lord.

It is written, the things of God no man knows, but the Spirit of God. That is why we need to be taught by God and Christ via the Holy Spirit.

Peace

 

[VictoryinJesus]

A lot of people are taught by carnally minded men, and when someone comes along speaking the Truth by the Spirit they will not receive their testimony. Most of what I fight against in these forums is the doctrines of men. I try to prove my points by using the words of God, as I did in my OP.

That is another false teaching of men, that antichrist is “a man”yet to come in the future. The words of God tell us that antichrist is a singular spirit that works in many deceivers.
And we are told this spirit called antichrist has already come into the world when John wrote those words.

I don’t tell people to seek understanding from me, nor any man for that matter. I tell people to seek understanding from the Lord.

It is written, the things of God no man knows, but the Spirit of God. That is why we need to be taught by God and Christ via the Holy Spirit.

Peace

You said: “That is another false teaching of men, that antichrist is “a man”yet to come in the future. The words of God tell us that antichrist is a singular spirit that works in many deceivers.
And we are told this spirit called antichrist has already come into the world when John wrote those words.”

I see that also. To me those are they that come as a thief in the night…in the spirit of the antichrist to steal, kill, and destroy. But I see He warns “that you be not caught unaware” of a thief coming in the night…”be sober, watching”…you are not of the night where the thief comes and overcomes but you are of the Day, of the Light. Where the thief approaches not. But at the same time I see a teaching that chooses to vilify God. I’m not so sure that teaching isn’t also eternal hellfire. To me it makes no sense that hellfire can be eternal unless it partakes and eats of that which gives Life. Without God…it perishes and comes to nothing. Having no eternal …continuous…remaining…Power of the Life of God in it. How do we know an eternal Fire that never goes out is not meant for Good in the Fire keeps sin from rising up again a second time. Burning for eternity. Where “eternal” isn’t focused on telling time but “eternal” being God’s eternal burning keeps sin from rising up again a second time?

 

[Ziggy]

“A brand plucked from the fire” sounds like saved from the destruction of the fire. How can “our God is an all consuming Fire” be both destroying and cleansing. Like for example when Paul spoke of pulling one out from the fire. Why pull them out if it’s cleansing? I get it’s said they are different Fires …but I’m not so sure that it’s not the same all consuming Fire but where men means it for harm…God means it for good.

This reminds me of the man who got caught having relations with his mother.
Paul said they should put him out of the church for the destruction of the flesh. What does that mean, carnally bodily destroyed, or something more spiritual, a conviction of guilt, sorrow, a change in his ways?
But then Paul comes back and says he should be forgiven and brought back into the church.
Is this a brand plucked from the fire?

Maybe there is a duration of time when ones penalty for sin should come to an end.
We see this throughout the bible specially with Israel, how they get punished and forgiven, punished and forgiven.
Isa 57:16
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Even when gold or silver is refined in the fire, the burning doesn't continue, but that which has been refined is removed from the fire and used for God's purpose.

Zec 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

I believe it is a process of cleansing, but when the process is complete then they are complete.

If separation from God is complete darkness, then being consumed by the fire of God is him bringing you before judgement and being tried.

Gal 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Is the all consuming fire something to be feared? I would say so, specially to those who have a lot of dross to be burned off.
But for those who know God and love Jesus, he says we all shall be sprinkled with fire. We all will have some kind of cleansing needed because there is none perfect. But God is in the business of perfecting us.
Does that make the fire our enemy because we will be judged? Or rather our friend because we will be cleansed with truth and revelation of our own selves and what needs cleansing?

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I believe this is what going through that fire looks like.

When he looks into your soul and shows you your sins and when one is repentant and forgiven they are taken out of the fire which burns.
And enveloped with the fire that burns with zeal for the Lord.

2Co 7:11
For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Mar 9:49
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Just thinking..
Hugs

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This reminds me of the man who got caught having relations with his mother.

Personally I don’t think it was a man having literal sex with “his fathers wife”. But having relations with “the woman which has an husband, bound to the law to her husband so long as he lives …where the adulterous woman husband is not (yet)dead…Paul spoke of a weaker brother who was too afraid to eat. Saying I will not eat meat as long as the world still (yet)stands. (I will not cause an offense towards a brother still bound to the law..one without the knowledge of Christ for Christ gave himself for those weak?)
Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
…see they are puffed up in one (who is having relationship with his fathers “wife” ..
Paul goes on later in the passage to list all those things to be put out. Where they are boasting in “the woman bound to the law by her husband” and not boasting in the body of Christ which has freed the woman bound to the law of her husband(called an adulterous woman) …where by the body of Christ she is freed to marry (called no more an adulterous woman) joined to another TO bring forth Fruit unto God. For the woman is saved through “child bearing” “bringing forth children unto God”

To me it is speaking of boasting in the Law or making your boast in God who sent His Son to free the Woman from the Curse of sin unto death…so by the death of ..by the body of Christ…she has been delivered by His body to bear children unto God.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

But at the same time I see a teaching that chooses to vilify God. I’m not so sure that teaching isn’t also eternal hellfire. To me it makes no sense that hellfire can be eternal unless it partakes and eats of that which gives Life. Without God…it perishes and comes to nothing. Having no eternal …continuous…remaining…Power of the Life of God in it. How do we know an eternal Fire that never goes out is not meant for Good in the Fire keeps sin from rising up again a second time. Burning for eternity. Where “eternal” isn’t focused on telling time but “eternal” being God’s eternal burning keeps sin from rising up again a second time?

If you don’t believe in eternal punishment, what do you make of these verses here…..

Revelation 14:9-11

King James Version

​

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Same as what is being talked about in putting that which is false without…or handling it over to satan …or handing it over to the reprobate mind …where there is no rest day or night. Personally this destruction or eating of the worm or canker…of as death, tearing of dogs or death swallowing up …this torment ..this burning and misery of all I’ve ever been taught of hellfire …I don’t see how it’s a way of destination but as you said of the spirit of the anti-Christ is already here…I think the same of hell-fire. Too many verses are in-your-face contradictory of a place where people are tormented for all of eternity. To me it’s another one of those doctrines to take the focus off of being in torment now by pushing it off into some way distant “place”. If it’s a way off place …then surely it hides the need to be removed from never ending torments now. Where it’s said “I’m not in torment?” “I don’t need saving from what I don’t acknowledge” “I’m good” while preaching of hell fire to come, deceived that one is not already being consumed in hell-fire. Like being on fire and ignoring your burning…it’s for the Lords mercies we are not consumed. “I see men walking in the fire…they are unbound and walk in the midst of the fire”? How are they not burnt?

 

[Ziggy]

Personally I don’t think it was a man having literal sex with “his fathers wife”. But having relations with “the woman which has an husband bound to the law to her husband so long as he lives …where the adulterous woman husband is not dead…
Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Paul goes on later in the passage to list all those things to be put out. Where they are boasting in “the woman bound to the law by her husband” and not boasting in the body of Christ which has freed the woman bound to the law of her husband …where by the body of Christ she is freed to marry another and bring forth Fruit unto God.

To me it is speaking of boasting in the Law or making your boast in God who sent His Son to free the Woman from the Curse of sin unto death…so by the death of ..by the body of Christ…she has been delivered by His body to bear children unto God.

ok, we can agree or not, that wasn't the subject I was really trying to get to about who the guy was sleeping with.
I was trying to find an example of a brand being plucked from the fire regardless of the "sin" .
And what it means to be put through the all consuming fire.

As far as the man sleeping with his father's wife, it makes me think of Ham, Noah's son..


Gen 9:20
And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Gen 9:21
And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:22
And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Gen 9:23
And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

Lev 20:11
And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


1Co 5:1
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3
For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

So Paul tells them to deliver the guy to the Sanhedrin to be judged according to the law of Moses.
But when Paul writes again he tells them to forgive him and bring him back into the fold.

Imagine if Paul was an Ambassador for the United States..

just kidding..

Pro 13:17
A wicked messenger falleth into mischief: but a faithful ambassador is health.

Eph 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph 6:20
For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
Ambassador of reconciliation..

2Co 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

See the first is to destructioin of the carnal man and the second is reconciliation of the spirit in man.
The law brought us to Christ.

So if someone sins and they are sent to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, and goes about seeking whom he may devour, then when Satan gets cast into the lake of fire, does that mean that sin will no longer be in the world ?
Because if there is no sin, then there is no carnal flesh left to be devoured.
His job is complete.

Just thinking..


Hugs

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Imagine if Paul was an Ambassador for the United States..

just kidding..

Lol.