Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[Behold]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,

A Christian's sin has ALL become this..

A.) """God hath made Jesus to be sin for us",.. so, if that has not happened to a person's SIN.... then that person is still in their sin, and they are not a "Christian".

And they say......."but my one verse, in 1 john, is my entire theology". "i hop from one forum to the next shouting people down using 1 John...

Yes, ive met many of those... unfortunately., including where you came from @JLB.

Now....Let me show you something., Reader.

1.) There is no sin in Christ.
2.) There is no sin in God
3.) There is no sin in Heaven.

Can you agree?

Can.. you .. agree?

So then, the born again are "in Christ".. "One with God".. "Seated in Heavenly Places", and Jesus has become their "One time ETERNAL sacrifice for Sin"..

Christians dont have sin........sinners have sin.......and Christians are not sinners......they are SONs/Daughters of GOD.

Christians are become a "New Creation in CHRIST" and "OLD THINGS are passed away'""....... like your sin, for example, as its ON JESUS< and He Died for them, and took them to the Grave, and rose again without them, and that settles it.

Also, There is no sin found in the KOG, and all CHRISTians are in the KOG.

SIN, is only found when the LAW can define your deeds as sin.....and the Born again "are not under the Law, but under GRACE".


"but Behold, i have my one verse, in 1 John....its my ONLY VERSE.....c'mon....... "

Yes, ive met a lot of this type, who have no understanding of Salvation, as God's Grace, that is The Cross of Christ.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Load of crap.

PROOF of your ALLEGATION, WOULD BE MY OWN TESTIMONY OF “DENIAL”.



Now you are preaching….”WHAT I SEE”…
And your non-Scriptural “Early Rain of the Spirit”….

I am not “subject to your hokey pokey nonsense” or “your phony accusations”.




I don’t know you.
Yet You think yourself qualified to make unmerited false accusations…

I have ZERO interest in your foolishness…
Try this on for size….

Ex 20:
[16] Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Dear Taken,
Your foul language and insulting posts show your "denial".

I have presented you with the truth of the New Covenant teachings of Christ and supported it with many verses of scripture. I can do nothing more. Since Christ has not made you receptive to His truth, I will move onto more fertile ground.

Joe

 

[GodsGrace]

Hmmm...
We persevere to the end, to the day of Christ, because it is God's power at work in us that enables us and preserves us rather than our own. This is the Holy Spirit's ~ God's ~ continuing work in us. Having "heard the word of truth, the gospel of (our) salvation, and (having) believed in Him, (we) were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it..." He causes us to want to persevere and then enables us to do it, even ensuring that we will not fail.

Your explaining lack of free will.
The Holy Spirit CAUSES you to want to persevere?
Where is this stated in the NT?

Jesus said the Holy Spirit is a helper and comforter...
John 14:26
26“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

The Holy Spirit LEADS us....
Galatians 5:18
But if you are lead by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Jesus NEVER said the Holy Spirit will MAKE us want anything.
Please post the verse that states this.

No, you're conflating two things.

1. Regarding what is irresistible, being born again of the Spirit is irresistible. As Jesus says to Nicodemus, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).

2. Regarding our ~ and it is our ~ perseverance, Peter says it as well as anywhere else, that we have been "born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for (us), who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5)

What does the above verse have to do with God's grace being irresistable?

So again... and these are not my words... "...He..." (God, of course) "...Who began a good work in you will..." ~ WILL ~ "...bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6) And then shortly after that, Paul says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

So first we're told that God WILL complete the good work in us....
THEN we're told, by the same Paul...to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

That would require a good explanation.

God will complete work in us IF we obey Him.
We are ASKED to obey God...we are COMMANDED to obey God.

IF God actively willed us to do good....
WHY DEMAND IT?

Again, calvinism causes great confusion in the Body of Christ.

And then Jude 24... God "able to keep (us) from stumbling and to present (us) blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy..."

This is perseverance of the saints. It's the power and work of God in us by His Spirit, not of man in and of himself, although, certainly, the saved man does it.

This is us using the Holy Spirit to HELP us not to stumble.
We are exhorted throughout the NT to not be carried away, to not stumble.

2 Peter 3:14-18
14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

In this one letter alone we are told to:

BE DILIGENT
BE ON OUR GUARD
GROW

IF God just does this all for us....
WHY warn us about doing it??

Very confusing.


1 of 3

 

[GodsGrace]

@PinSeeker

2 of 3

Absolutely. His elect. We do not elect ourselves.

That's not what Jesus said. Jesus said we DO save ourselves and become a part of God's elect:

John 3:16-18
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The world would be saved by believing in Jesus, He did not come to judge but to save.
The person that believes in Him is not judged.

Hmmm, well, by your own definition, if man elects himself ~ if His being of God's elect is solely due to his own choice ~ does our choosing Him not then obligate God to execute His salvation and thus ~ in the very same way you speak of this "taking away" of free will ~ take away the free will of God Himself?

What nonsense PS.

Is God Almighty or not?
Is the Almighty God who created the heavens and the earth and all that is seen and unseen so weak as to fear giving us free will?
Because it would take away HIS free will?

Is your God Almighty and Sovereign or isn't He?

It is not about man's will at all. The salvation of man by God is a creative act ~ a re-creation of the inner man, the spirit, which previously was dead... making him a new creation, as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:17-18...

"...if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to Himself..."​

God is the Creator. And that takes us back again to Jesus's reply to His disciples, who had plainly asked, "Who then can be saved?" And as you well know, I'm sure, Jesus replied, "What is impossible with man is possible with God" (Luke 18:27)

Of course.
Man cannot save himself.
God must save him.
Every Christian agrees with this.

But as to the question of
WHO can be saved....
Paul answered that question....

Acts 16:30-31 The jailor asked Paul.
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

And the jailor was converted.
Paul taught him HOW....
Paul did not tell him he had to wait and see IF God would pick him to be an elect.

 

[GodsGrace]

@PinSeeker

3 of 3

Enables. Keeps them from stumbling (Jude 24). As a father helps his child. In His power.

Ah, well let's read it together:

8. The expression of our Savior, "Many are called, but few are chosen," (Mt. 22:14), is also very improperly interpreted (see Book 3, chap. 2, sec. 11, 12). There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear--viz. that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness. Now, our Lord seeing that the gospel was published far and wide, was despised by multitudes, and justly valued by few, describes God under the character of a King, who, preparing a great feast, sends his servants all around to invite a great multitude, but can only obtain the presence of a very few, because almost all allege causes of excuse; at length, in consequence of their refusal, he is obliged to send his servants out into the highways to invite every one they meet. It is perfectly clear, that thus far the parable is to be understood of external calling. He afterwards adds, that God acts the part of a kind entertainer, who goes round his table and affably receives his guests; but still if he finds any one not adorned with the nuptial garment, he will by no means allow him to insult the festivity by his sordid dress. I admit that this branch of the parable is to be understood of those who, by a profession of faith, enter the Church, but are not at all invested with the sanctification of Christ. Such disgraces to his Church, such cankers God will not always tolerate, but will cast them forth as their turpitude deserves. Few, then, out of the great number of called are chosen; the calling, however, not being of that kind which enables believers to judge of their election. The former call is common to the wicked, the latter brings with it the spirit of regeneration, which is the earnest and seal of the future inheritance by which our hearts are sealed unto the day of the Lord (Eph. 1:13, 14). In one word, while hypocrites pretend to piety, just as if they were true worshipers of God, Christ declares that they will ultimately be ejected from the place which they improperly occupy, as it is said in the psalm, "Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart," (Psalm 15:1, 2). Again in another passage, "This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob," (Psalm 24:6). And thus the Spirit exhorts believers to patience, and not to murmur because Ishmaelites are mingled with them in the Church since the mask will at length be torn off, and they will be ejected with disgrace.

Ah, "by heart"... interesting. I'll get to that in a moment... :) But as for what you say here, maybe so, but I haven't seen anybody post it, much less you.

So, "by heart"... Yes, I know you meant from memory. :) But that kind of presents a bit of a quandary... :)

So, you see what I bolded above. This inward (second, per above) call is of God by His Spirit ~ "by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts"... What is in our heart, GodsGrace, follows, inevitably, in our minds. And this goes back to the Bible's definition of faith, which... Hebrews 11:1... is the assurance (of God) of things hoped for and the conviction (by the Spirit, Who convicts) of things unseen. So yes, anyone ~ if he truly has God's gift of faith ~ can be and will be absolutely sure of His having been chosen. This is what Biblical faith is, for crying out loud. :)

You don't even post your source.
But it's John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion.
I have gone through all 4 books, but I certainly would not use CALVIN for support.
Do you think a Catholic should use the CCC as support?
Do you think one of the Confessions should be used as support?

ONLY scripture could be used for support of a doctrine and it's really difficult for a Calvinist to do this because
they must change words and meanings or verses would not align with their doctrine.

And, as I've stated and posted Book 3, Chapter 24, Paragraph 8
it is IMPOSSIBLE for a calvinist to know for sure that God has chosen him
UNTIL the end of his life.

I, OTOH, KNOW that I have chosen to love and obey God, who is my Father and loves me and all those that FREELY CHOOSE Him.

And I would submit that if anyone is worried about having been chosen...

Aside: Which is to say they may indeed struggle with this assurance in themselves, which they probably will, because none of us is perfect in anything, including belief or assurance... thus we should pray, like the father in Mark 9:24, "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!"...​

...that is proof of their having been chosen. We do not have faith in our faith; that's not really faith at all. We have faith because it's been given to us and is in a Person, the Person of Christ Jesus. Jesus is the Author and Perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). Even our belief is the gift of God:

"Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, 'Who do people say that the Son of Man is?' And they said, 'Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.' (Jesus) said to them, 'But who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father Who is in heaven." (Matthew 16:13-17)​

What Gamaliel says in Acts 5 is a general Biblical truth and is very applicable here, too, that if anything is of man, it will fail, but if it is of God, it will not fail (Acts 5:38-39)

Soli Del Gloria!

Grace and peace to all.

Oh, I agree!
IF anything is of MAN...it will fail.

Reformed theology is of man.

Began in 1,500AD
Was abandoned by all denominations, except the reformed, because of its incorrect teachings that are impossible to adhere to.

It comes and goes....and will go again eventually.

 

[Ritajanice]

PinSeeker said:
Hmmm...
We persevere to the end, to the day of Christ, because it is God's power at work in us that enables us and preserves us rather than our own. This is the Holy Spirit's ~ God's ~ continuing work in us. Having "heard the word of truth, the gospel of (our) salvation, and (having) believed in Him, (we) were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it..." He causes us to want to persevere and then enables us to do it, even ensuring that we will not fail.




Amen!!

We are Born Again by the Spirit Of God...the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children/ Born Again Children/ spirit children...hence the Spirit “ testifies with our spirit “.which comes by divine revelation.

Yes, of course the Spirit causes us to want to persevere he’s at work in our heart/ spirit..and enables us to do it, by his power that is within us...which is the power of Gods witness His Living Holy Spirit..

We have the power of Gods Spirit working day in day out in our hearts/ spirit...all according to his purpose and plan..

All Glory and Power is of the Lord....we are nothing without the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 1​

​

King James Version​

​

​

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dear Taken,
Your foul language and insulting posts show your "denial".

I have presented you with the truth of the New Covenant teachings of Christ and supported it with many verses of scripture. I can do nothing more. Since Christ has not made you receptive to His truth, I will move onto more fertile ground.

Joe

dude.

Youhave accused him multiples times

multiple times he has denied your accusations or that he believes what you say he believes/

yet you keep comming at him as if you know what he believes more than he does.

now you attack him.

Get real man, if your not going to listen to him, I suggest you move on. Your making a fool of yourself.

 

[Ritajanice]

Dear Taken,
Your foul language and insulting posts show your "denial".

I have presented you with the truth of the New Covenant teachings of Christ and supported it with many verses of scripture. I can do nothing more. Since Christ has not made you receptive to His truth, I will move onto more fertile ground.

Joe

I have learnt that when we start forcing others to believe as “ we” believe...you’re / were on rocky ground, the Lord speaks to his children in ways that they understand..imo....you’re way / my way belong to us....just as the way God teaches others...belongs to them.....everyone here is being brought to understand God’s word His way..,

Not your way!...not my way!...

You’re telling her that God has not made her receptive to his truth.....”says you” ...not God...not looking for confrontation...just trying a pointer that is all...note to self also....

 

[Ritajanice]

PinSeeker said:
No, you're conflating two things.

1. Regarding what is irresistible, being born again of the Spirit is irresistible. As Jesus says to Nicodemus, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).






Amen!!!...my testimony/ belief.

 

[GodsGrace]

All believers have a true understanding of the gospel yet none of us perfectly understood everything.

We could perfectly understand that Jesus wants us to behave well.

In the High Priestly Prayer that Jesus prayed to the Father in John 17, He states that He gave the words which God gave to Him (Jesus) to the Apostles and that they received them (the words).

John 17:8
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

What words to you suppose Jesus took over 3 years to tell to the Apostles?

Could it be:
Tell everyone they have to be born again.
And then they'll never have to do anything again because it'll be a work.
Hmmm. I don't think so.

Because JESUS Did say:

John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Sounds like Jesus is saying to do good deeds.
It doesn't state anywhere that this is a work.
It sounds to me like we're SUPPOSED to do good deeds.

Jesus said that God Father will CUT OFF branches that do not produce fruit:

John 15:1
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

NOTE: Jesus said every branch IN HIM that does not bear fruit....God Father takes away.

So, if we're IN CHRIST but are not producing fruit, God Father will cut us off.


Jesus said we're to pick up our cross daily and follow Him.
Luke 9:23

Jesus said if we love Him we will keep/obey His commands.
John 14:15

Type 1 works salvation means initially saved by faith and works and type 2 works salvation means initially saved by faith, not works, then ultimately saved by works/salvation maintained by works. Obedience which follows saving faith in Christ is works. I thoroughly read what others explain to me and I've heard it all before having been a member of multiple Christian forum sites for over 12 years.

I don't know of any Christian denomination that believes we are initially saved by faith AND works.

As to your type 2....kept by works.....
This means that you believe the commands of Jesus are WORKS.
This means you believe baptism is a WORK.
This means you believe being like those blessed in Matthew 5:1..... are doing WORKS.
This means being the salt of the earth is a WORK.

John 14:21
“Whoever has My commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves Me… .”

Which commands MMD?
According to you there aren't any....they're all just works.

This is bizarre theology.
When a person strays from the simple logic of the NT teachings,
they will end up with bizarre theology because it come from their own mind
and not from GOD.

 

[GodsGrace]

Apart from being stunned, what else are you trying to say. What happens when the bible is not understood. Please calm down and try to make some sense. What have the JW's Mormons done to you, to upset you so much.

This is what you posted CS.
Yes, it's stunning, odd and unorthodox.
You should try reading the bible without bringing your own ideas to it.

You wrote:

Stop making up lies, Jesus never gave a warning to anyone to abide in Him.

Why do you have to add to Gods Word, God warned that those who do this will be cast into hell yet you keep on doing it with no fear of God at all. That what the pride people do.

How do you take an observation and turn it into a warning, without butchering Gods Word.

If anyone is outside of Christ, they are burned up, so they were never in Christ to begin with. You can't abide in Christ unless you are in Him, Christ was saying those outside of Him, who do not abide in Him will be burned up. He never suggested that He would amputate His limbs and throw them on the fire.

He who abides in Him, does so by His Spirit, "WHOM HE HAS GIVEN US".

Nobody can abide in Christ, unless we die and God makes us alive with His Spirit. You're spirit must be dead before you can abide in Him. So it's silly to suggest that Gods commands Himself to remain abiding in someone. You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't. If you don't it's impossible to abide in Him, if you do it means God killed you and created a new person and a new spirit.
There's no personal choice of obedience involved here, God doesn't ask those He kills if they want to be saved, He just does it. Then you will abide while kicking and screaming but you can't escape abiding.

 

[GodsGrace]

PinSeeker said:
No, you're conflating two things.

1. Regarding what is irresistible, being born again of the Spirit is irresistible. As Jesus says to Nicodemus, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).






Amen!!!...my testimony/ belief.

Then Ritajanice,
You're of the calvinist persuasion and are following a man named John Calvin.

The JWs were recently invented.
The Mormons were recently invented.
Calvinism was recently invented.

Hope you like the company you're in.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We could perfectly understand that Jesus wants us to behave well.

In the High Priestly Prayer that Jesus prayed to the Father in John 17, He states that He gave the words which God gave to Him (Jesus) to the Apostles and that they received them (the words).

John 17:8
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

What words to you suppose Jesus took over 3 years to tell to the Apostles?

Could it be:
Tell everyone they have to be born again.
And then they'll never have to do anything again because it'll be a work.
Hmmm. I don't think so.

Not would my self or Dan think he said that. So why would you act as if we would?

Because JESUS Did say:

John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

yes Gods people will do good deeds. Not to keep themselves saved (a selfish reason I may add) but out of appreciation for being saved, and given power ByGod to do good works. Because they actually trust God

Sounds like Jesus is saying to do good deeds.
It doesn't state anywhere that this is a work.
It sounds to me like we're SUPPOSED to do good deeds.

He said they did good deeds. he did not say do good deeds..

Jesus said that God Father will CUT OFF branches that do not produce fruit:

John 15:1
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

NOTE: Jesus said every branch IN HIM that does not bear fruit....God Father takes away.

So, if we're IN CHRIST but are not producing fruit, God Father will cut us off.


Jesus said we're to pick up our cross daily and follow Him.
Luke 9:23

Jesus said if we love Him we will keep/obey His commands.
John 14:15


I don't know of any Christian denomination that believes we are initially saved by faith AND works.

As to your type 2....kept by works.....
This means that you believe the commands of Jesus are WORKS.
This means you believe baptism is a WORK.
This means you believe being like those blessed in Matthew 5:1..... are doing WORKS.
This means being the salt of the earth is a WORK.

John 14:21
“Whoever has My commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves Me… .”

Which commands MMD?
According to you there aren't any....they're all just works.

This is bizarre theology.
When a person strays from the simple logic of the NT teachings,
they will end up with bizarre theology because it come from their own mind
and not from GOD.

Back to the fruit argument

 

[Ritajanice]

Then Ritajanice,
You're of the calvinist persuasion and are following a man named John Calvin.

The JWs were recently invented.
The Mormons were recently invented.
Calvinism was recently invented.

Hope you like the company you're in.

I go by Gods word...not John Calvin..

You’ve voiced your own opinion...without any back up to show I follow Calvin.

I wonder why you always use that card..

Why not question me on what I post, rather than make accusations against other members?

Is what you do...I believe as The Spirit leads me to believe understand....all takes time to understand the penned word, even then only the Spirit can bring scripture to our understanding as I’ve already stated many times.

He is the one with all the spiritual knowledge...I know nothing without him and am nothing without him.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16

King James Version

​

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have no quarrel with any verses of scripture, it's when people abuse the scriptures that causes an issue. JBL has been pushing a works based gospel and twisting those verses to make them say that He is going to be saved by his works.

HOW is post 2 verses and NOT EVEN COMMENTING ON THEM....
twisting them to make them say what he wants them to say?

Why are you so afraid of the word WORKS when that's all Jesus taught?

What do you think Jesus came here to do?
To die on a cross so you could be saved and then do NOTHING to belong in the kingdom here on earth?

Jesus taught that if we want to belong to His Kingdom, and be subjects to the King --- Jesus --- we are to BEHAVE in a certain manner.

This is not WORKS,,,,this is following Jesus and being a disciple of His.

The NT teaches:

Be not only HEARERS of the word, BUT DOERS of the word.
James 1:22
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

James 1:23
23For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.

We are clearly warned to be a DOER of the word.
What about this do you not agree with?

 

[Ritajanice]

Jesus taught that if we want to belong to His Kingdom, and be subjects to the King --- Jesus --- we are to BEHAVE in a certain manner

The word of God says...only a Born Again will see the Kingdom Of God.

Do you have to be born again to enter the kingdom of God?
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.

 

[Ritajanice]

@GodsGrace you say

Why are you so afraid of the word WORKS when that's all Jesus taught?


The word says.

Ephesians 2

King James Version

​

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[PinSeeker]

Your explaining lack of free will.

In no way. But I can understand why some think that..

The Holy Spirit CAUSES you to want to persevere? Where is this stated in the NT?

Okay, GodsGrace, in answer to this, I'm going to ask you what your take is here in consideration of the following, with particular references in each verse to the underlined portion:

• John quotes Jesus as saying, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:39).
• John quotes Jesus again as saying, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand" (John 10:27-29).
• John again quotes Jesus as saying, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..". (John 15:16)
• Paul says to the Philippians, "He (God) Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ" (Philippians 1:6), and "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13)
• And Peter, in 1 Peter 1:3-5, says, "(God) has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
• Paul again, in Jude 24, says, "Now to (God) Who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy..."
• And finally, John says, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son" (2 John 9).
• Jesus says, in Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, and Luke 18:27, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible", "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God", and "What is impossible with man is possible with God", respectively.

Take it all in, GodsGrace. Any one is sufficient, but take it all in.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit is a helper and comforter...
John 14:26
26“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

The Holy Spirit LEADS us....
Galatians 5:18
But if you are lead by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Jesus NEVER said the Holy Spirit will MAKE us want anything.

Well, right. But He is our Helper. ;) You did quote John 14:26... :) And without His help... :)

What does the above verse have to do with God's grace being irresistable?

That's another ~ very related, but another ~ subject. We can address that separately if you like.

So first we're told that God WILL complete the good work in us....

THEN we're told, by the same Paul...to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Ah, yes, for, GodsGrace ~ for, or because ~ it is God who works in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. We very much do the willing and working, GodsGrace, but because God is at work in us. If He were not ~ if we didn't have the Spirit in us ~ we would not.

God will complete work in us IF we obey Him.

LOL! Well, I agree, but it is God, in causing us to be born again, in removing the heart of stone from our flesh and giving us a heart of flesh. in putting His Spirit within us, causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

And His "vehicle" for doing so is the Holy Spirit, Who, again, in Paul's words, works in us so that we then will and work for His good pleasure, and in Peter's words, by God's power guards through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We are ASKED to obey God...we are COMMANDED to obey God.

Yes, and thanks be to God, He gives us the strength to do it, His Holy Spirit Who, by His power sustains us to the end.

IF God actively willed us to do good.... WHY DEMAND IT?

Interesting question, but you're thinking of it wrong... backwards, really. Since He demands it, even in our weakness, He gives us the strength to do it, and gives Himself to us, in the person of His Holy Spirit to enable us to do it and ensure that we will do it. Because, as Jesus said, with man... man, in and of himself... this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.

Again, calvinism causes great confusion in the Body of Christ.

You are not the only one to hold that opinion. :) However, it's really due to people misunderstanding God's Word... and being fixated on free will, which no on denies. It's just that our free will is either left as it is because we are left to ourselves, or it comes to be in accordance with God's will, and either way, it's a function of the heart. The heart is what drives the will. Always.

This is us using the Holy Spirit to HELP us not to stumble.

Nope. Again, the verse is, GodsGrace, God is "able to keep (us) from stumbling and to present (us) blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy..." And you might remember what Paul says of the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23... "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control."

We are exhorted throughout the NT to not be carried away, to not stumble.

Absolutely. But yet again, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure," and "God is able to keep us from stumbling and to present us blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy."

IF God just does this all for us....

He doesn't, but we do so because of His work in us. No offense, GodsGrace, but goodness gracious you're a stubborn fellow. :)

Very confusing.

Shouldn't be... :)

1 of 3 (Maybe less than 3...) :)

 

[GodsGrace]

I go by Gods word...not John Calvin..

You’ve voiced your own opinion...without any back up to show I follow Calvin.

I wonder why you always use that card..

Why not question me on what I post, rather than make accusations against other members?

Is what you do...I believe as The Spirit leads me to believe understand....all takes time to understand the penned word, even then only the Spirit can bring scripture to our understanding as I’ve already stated many times.

He is the one with all the spiritual knowledge...I know nothing without him and am nothing without him.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16​

​

King James Version​

​

​

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

This is a weird concept Rita,
I mean that anyone can read scripture and come to their very own conclusion as to what it states.

Do you realize that this means there is NO TRUTH?
If we can make up our own truths, then we have no truth available to us.

The comment made to the other member sounded very innocent to me and l thought I'd point out that the other member's post and you're liking it means that you agree on Calvinism.

A man-made religion that came about more or less at 1,500 years after the church was established after Jesus ascended and the Apostles taught others, and so on.

What Calvinism teaches was NEVER taught in the early church.

You want verses?
Look up my posts here and you'll find plenty if you care to respond to them.

Nothing about Calvinism is biblical.
So you're going by Calvin's word....not God's word.

And what I post is not opinion....
I back up everything I state with verses and exegesis.

I don't see Calvinists doing that.
They just throw verses back at me.
Because they CANNOT explain plain, simple to understand verses,
because their theology is incorrect and an affront to God.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace you say

Why are you so afraid of the word WORKS when that's all Jesus taught?


The word says.

Ephesians 2​

​

King James Version​

​

​

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I don't know ANY Christian that believes we are saved by works.
We are saved by faith.

However, look at verse 10.....we are created unto good works.

So,,,,are works good or bad?

Are good deeds works or are they necessary because we were created for them?

Did Jesus teach that we are to engage in good deeds, or did He say it's a sin?
(which some do claim - that doing good is sinful because we're not depending on God).