The Lord will fight for Israel and Jerusalem; Zech. 12

[tailgator]

No I didn't say that at all I quoted Jesus saying that the ones taken aren't the rapture but taken in judgement

Ok
And that is not talking about his elect who are gathered together to him at his coming.

2 these 2:1
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,


Jesus has not come and no one has been gathered to him.yet.

 

[tailgator]

The sixth seal lines up with Matthew 24

I believe that the Roman army was the Abomination what do you believe it is?

John is describing the abomination of desolation.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



This is Israels nuclear deterrent policy called the Samson option.It is to be implemented after Israel has been overcome by its enemies.Israels ally and close friend,the man of sins armed forces fulfill its obligation to the Israeli government.

 

[tailgator]

Rome fell

Rome is still Rome.It hasn't gone anywhere.
If anything,it converted to a new religion.

 

[Marty fox]

Ok
And that is not talking about his elect who are gathered together to him at his coming.

2 these 2:1
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,


Jesus has not come and no one has been gathered to him.yet.

Of course it not the same people I didn't say that at all.

Jesus has come in judgement many times but that is different than the second coming. Jesus has also gathered people to Himself spiritually which is also different than the rapture

John 11:52

and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

 

[tailgator]

Of course it not the same people I didn't say that at all.

Jesus has come in judgement many times but that is different than the second coming. Jesus has also gathered people to Himself spiritually which is also different than the rapture

John 11:52

and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

False
Jesus did not come in 70. Ad

And the resurrection of the dead which takes place during the great tribulation caused by the abomination of desolation did not take place in 70 ad.

Daniel 12:1-2

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.



Was not fulfilled in 70.ad.

 

[Marty fox]

False
Jesus did not come in 70. Ad

And the resurrection of the dead which takes place during the great tribulation caused by the abomination of desolation did not take place in 70 ad.

Daniel 12:1-2

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.



Was not fulfilled in 70.ad.

They awoke at the cross and resurrection not in our future

Matthew 27
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Some folk just hate all Jews and desire that they all burn in hell cause they be getting their Hitler on again

 

[tailgator]

They awoke at the cross and resurrection not in our future

Matthew 27
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

You say the resurrection is past.


2 Timothy 2
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[tailgator]

Some folk just hate all Jews and desire that they all burn in hell cause they be getting their Hitler on again

Some people worship God and believe in Jesus Christ and do not worship the beast.

 

[Marty fox]

Some people worship God and believe in Jesus Christ and do not worship the beast.

You say the resurrection is past.


2 Timothy 2
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

The final resurrection for the judgement day is at the end of our world as the scriptures teach.

Not I but the scripture states that the resurrection you referred too when you wrote "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame" happened at the cross and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[tailgator]

The final resurrection for the judgement day is at the end of our world as the scriptures teach.

Not I but the scripture states that the resurrection you referred too when you wrote "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame" happened at the cross and resurrection of Jesus.

False
The time of the end was not when Christ was crucified and the man of sin was not destroyed at Christ crucification.



Daniel 11:40-12:2
40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cushites[e] in submission. 44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


This resurection takes place at Christ second advent Not his death.

 

[Marty fox]

False
The time of the end was not when Christ was crucified and the man of sin was not destroyed at Christ crucification.



Daniel 11:40-12:2
40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cushites[e] in submission. 44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


This resurection takes place at Christ second advent Not his death.

End of what?

 

[tailgator]

End of what?

The end was not Christs death
The man of sin is destroyed at Christ coming.Not Christs death.The resurection takes place at Christs coming.

Daniel 11
45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him


2 thes 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[Marty fox]

The end was not Christs death
The man of sin is destroyed at Christ coming.Not Christs death.The resurection takes place at Christs coming.

Daniel 11
45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him


2 thes 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I didn't say that he is destroyed at Christ death I was asking what does the end mean the end of what?

You keep claiming that I say things that I don't actually say

 

[tailgator]

I didn't say that he is destroyed at Christ death I was asking what does the end mean the end of what?

You keep claiming that I say things that I don't actually say

You said the prophecy was fulfilled at Christs death.

Here is the prophecy.It was not fulfilled at Christs death.

Daniel 11:40-12:2
40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cushites[e] in submission. 44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


The time of the end is when Christ comes and raises the dead in Daniel 12:2.
The great tribulation caused by the abomination of desolation is mentioned in Daniel 12:1.

 

[Marty fox]

You said the prophecy was fulfilled at Christs death.

Here is the prophecy.It was not fulfilled at Christs death.

Daniel 11:40-12:2
40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cushites[e] in submission. 44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


The time of the end is when Christ comes and raises the dead in Daniel 12:2.
The great tribulation caused by the abomination of desolation is mentioned in Daniel 12:1.

I said that the first resurrection was fulfilled at Christ death and resurrection and so did Matthew. I don't see that prophecy as the future the time of that end I believe is the end of the temple and sacrificial age

How would you explain?
Matthew 27:
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I like to keep people guessing

I'm not into playing games like that.

Blindness “in part”does not mean partial blindness. It just means they were “partly”made blind for a reason, and “partly”because they did not believe.

Where are you getting this from? Not from scripture, that's for sure. It's quite clear that you haven't ever really studied Romans 11 very closely.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

In Paul's day there was a saved Israelite "remnant according to the election of grace". He said they "hath obtained what Israel was seeking, but "the rest were blinded". So, that's what "blinded in part" means. It means the elect remnant of Israelites were saved "and the rest were blinded". So, part of Israel was saved and part was blinded (blindness in part).

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes. Well, technically, verse 37 does since Zechariah 12:10 is quoted there. We need to allow scripture to interpret scripture.

The context of Zechariah 12:10 is in relation to people mourning Christ's death while the context of Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 is people wailing in fear of His wrath. Seeing similar phrases in 2 different verses does not automatically mean they are directly related.

I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure Matthew 24:30 is talking about the resurrection.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

In Paul's day there was a saved Israelite "remnant according to the election of grace". He said they "hath obtained what Israel was seeking, but "the rest were blinded". So, that's what "blinded in part" means. It means the elect remnant of Israelites were saved "and the rest were blinded". So, part of Israel was saved and part was blinded (blindness in part).

That is certainly “a part”of the reason, but another “part” is shown here…

Romans 11:20

King James Version

​

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure Matthew 24:30 is talking about the resurrection.

Yes, that is referring to the second coming of Christ with verse 31 referring to the church being gathered to Christ when He comes. The point I'm making is that unbelievers will be wailing in fear when He comes and that is the context of Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7. In contrast, Zechariah 12:10 is referring to people mourning His death and is referring to people literally looking at the one they pierced, as John 19:34-37 shows.