What will happen to Christians who reject the Sabbath?

[St. SteVen]

Misquoting is simply quoting something incorrectly or inaccurately.

Perhaps misappropriating is better term for what I am driving at. The misuse.

]

 

[St. SteVen]

I wonder How Christ separated Himself from His doctrine.

Actually, I don't wonder at all because I know that He didn't do so.

I think the proof that he separated himself from doctrine is that he was not offended on his own account. Even the turning over of tables at the Temple was stepping in to right a wrong. The offense wasn't against him personally.

"Doctrine" is another word that's been weaponized.

If a man can separate himself from his knowledge, then there's nothing at all to commend him in remaining unoffended.

I think NOT taking up offenses is key to unemotional dialog.

What is doctrine after all?

]

 

[marks]

A step down from being murderers, liars, adulterers, thieves? Sure!

So you are saying that being a murderer, a liar, an adulterer, a thief, is better than living by the Law of Love of Christ?

I think you are missing something here.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

I think the proof that he separated himself from doctrine is that he was not offended on his own account. Even the turning over of tables at the Temple was stepping in to right a wrong. The offense wasn't against him personally.

But didn't He step in to right a wrong that was based on the teaching that it's contrary to (the correct, but too often misrepresented or maligned teaching of) His Father's character to steal? He was rightfully angry because they had turned His Father's house of prayer and worship (1st commandment teaching) into a den of thievery and thieves (8th commandment teaching).

I think NOT taking up offenses is key to unemotional dialog.

I'm emotional about my sense and practice of religion. I don't want unemotional dialogue. I just want relationships with God and my fellow man that include recognizing correctly the emotions of myself and others which helps me to think, speak, and act in ways that will optimize relational outcomes. We, in the western world especially, are losing this ability at a staggering rate. It's a relatively new or, at least, re-emerging field of psychology called emotional intelligence—an area of study that corporate entities have been highly successful in implementing for recruiting and business efficiency.

What is doctrine after all?

Doctrine is simply an old-fashioned word for knowledge or teaching. But it is, for the vast majority of Christians today, a dirty word used in much the same way as the word "science" is used today—to intimidate people into dropping an unwelcome subject or subordinate view of a subject. I assume that's not what you're doing, but it sure is more than common.

:)

 

[BarneyFife]

So you are saying that being a murderer, a liar, an adulterer, a thief, is better than living by the Law of Love of Christ?

...not any .more than you think sideburn preservation is like respecting property rights.

I think you are missing something here.

I don't think you're missing anything here. Not sure why you wanna dance around it, though.

:)

 

[marks]

...not any .more than you think sideburn preservation is like respecting property rights.

Respecting propery rights is contained in loving others. I want you to have what is yours, and I'm not about to deprive you of it. And if you need to have more, and I have more that I can give, it's yours, because I want you to have what you need.

I don't think you're missing anything here. Not sure why you wanna dance around it, though.

:)

Because there is an important point to be made to those who read these threads.

The Law that God gave at Sinai, including specifically the 10 commandments, all the other commandments, and all the prophets commanded, all of this is the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. Horeb.

Exodus 19:3-8 KJV
3) And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4) Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7) And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

And this is the Law and the Prophets. God's covenant of obedience for blessing that He made with the nation of Israel.

We know the Law is good. I'm not arguing that. But the Law of Love is exceedingly better. Gentiles never were under the Law, and Jews who are in Christ have died to the Law, to no longer serve it, rather to serve Christ Himself.

It's like, first, Jesus sent His list of rules to this one group of people, and told them to follow the rules included therein. But now Jesus Himself has come to us, and says,

Follow Me!
But I want to keep following your list of rules to Israel!
My leading is better!
But I want the rules!

Gentiles are not faulted in Scripture for not keeping Israel's Law. They are faulted for violating their own conscience. The are faulted for falling short of God's glory. They are faulted for not wanting to know about God.

What if the Law truly is for Israel? What if we are dead to law and alive to Christ, and meant to serve Him above and beyond the Law that was given to Israel? I think these things are true, and I welcome the opportunity to both show these things from Scripture, and explain how it is so.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

So you are saying that being a murderer, a liar, an adulterer, a thief, is better than living by the Law of Love of Christ?

I'm not sure why I didn't catch this the first time I read it, but why are you portraying me—someone who is widely on record as advocating the observance of the Ten Commandments—as saying that practicing murder, theft, and adultery is preferable to the teachings of Christ?

Was this a typo?

.

 

[BarneyFife]

Respecting propery rights is contained in loving others. I want you to have what is yours, and I'm not about to deprive you of it. And if you need to have more, and I have more that I can give, it's yours, because I want you to have what you need.


Because there is an important point to be made to those who read these threads.

The Law that God gave at Sinai, including specifically the 10 commandments, all the other commandments, and all the prophets commanded, all of this is the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. Horeb.

Exodus 19:3-8 KJV
3) And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4) Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7) And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

And this is the Law and the Prophets. God's covenant of obedience for blessing that He made with the nation of Israel.

We know the Law is good. I'm not arguing that. But the Law of Love is exceedingly better. Gentiles never were under the Law, and Jews who are in Christ have died to the Law, to no longer serve it, rather to serve Christ Himself.

It's like, first, Jesus sent His list of rules to this one group of people, and told them to follow the rules included therein. But now Jesus Himself has come to us, and says,

Follow Me!
But I want to keep following your list of rules to Israel!
My leading is better!
But I want the rules!

Gentiles are not faulted in Scripture for not keeping Israel's Law. They are faulted for violating their own conscience. The are faulted for falling short of God's glory. They are faulted for not wanting to know about God.

What if the Law truly is for Israel? What if we are dead to law and alive to Christ, and meant to serve Him above and beyond the Law that was given to Israel? I think these things are true, and I welcome the opportunity to both show these things from Scripture, and explain how it is so.

Much love!

I don't find this kind of equivocation helpful at all. In fact, at times, I find it very hard to distinguish it from passive-agressive behavior.

Christ is clear that He didn't come to change the law. He didn't even change the sacrifice—He fulfilled it, thus making the shadows of the True obsolete, which do not include the Ten Commandments.

I guess we're not "done on this one" after all.

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[BarneyFife]

@marks

I often find myself frustrated by others' discussion styles.

I apologize for any ill will I might be unduly fostering.

:)

 

[marks]

I don't find this kind of equivocation helpful at all.

How is this equivocation? I've laid out my understanding. And the fact is fact, the Law of Love is exceeding higher than the written Law.

I'm curious about what you might quote from my post that is not factually true, or of my commentary, that is does not accurately reflect the teaching of the Bible.

And the 10 commandments were most certainly part of God's covenant with Israel. It was the beginning of that covenant. God said, if you obey Me, you will be My special people. Israel said, OK, we will do what you tell us to do. God responds, First, don't have other gods before Me. Second, don't make any images of gods to worship them, and so forth. And He gave them all the commands of Scripture, from not worshiping other gods, to not trimming the corners of their beards.

James makes it clear, the Law is a single thing, so if you break any part, you've broken the Law. Because it was a covenant of obedience, and to break the least part was to break that covenant.

The Law of Love correctly sorts what we need to do and what we don't need to do. If trimming my beard somehow has a negative impact on someone, I won't do it. But I've never seen that, nor been prompted inside of the Spirit to not trim my beard, and so I'm completely free to do so.

But I'm not free to worship other gods, because I love and worship the true God, not by commandment, but because of a new life in Christ. The constraint against worshiping other gods is not from the written commandment, it's from the leading of the Holy Spirit inside.

That the Holy Spirit leads me to not worship other gods, and that God gave commandment to Israel to not worship other gods, this does not mean that I'm subject to the commandment. I'm subject to the Holy Spirit. To Christ.

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks

I often find myself frustrated by others' discussion styles.

I apologize for any ill will I might be unduly fostering.

:)

There is no ill will from me my brother! And I'm not feeling any from you. I saw opportunity to address an issue that needs lots of addressing, both to review the information for others, and to review it for myself.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

How is this equivocation? I've laid out my understanding. And the fact is fact, the Law of Love is exceeding higher than the written Law.

I'm curious about what you might quote from my post that is not factually true, or of my commentary, that is does not accurately reflect the teaching of the Bible.

And the 10 commandments were most certainly part of God's covenant with Israel. It was the beginning of that covenant. God said, if you obey Me, you will be My special people. Israel said, OK, we will do what you tell us to do. God responds, First, don't have other gods before Me. Second, don't make any images of gods to worship them, and so forth. And He gave them all the commands of Scripture, from not worshiping other gods, to not trimming the corners of their beards.

James makes it clear, the Law is a single thing, so if you break any part, you've broken the Law. Because it was a covenant of obedience, and to break the least part was to break that covenant.

The Law of Love correctly sorts what we need to do and what we don't need to do. If trimming my beard somehow has a negative impact on someone, I won't do it. But I've never seen that, nor been prompted inside of the Spirit to not trim my beard, and so I'm completely free to do so.

But I'm not free to worship other gods, because I love and worship the true God, not by commandment, but because of a new life in Christ. The constraint against worshiping other gods is not from the written commandment, it's from the leading of the Holy Spirit inside.

That the Holy Spirit leads me to not worship other gods, and that God gave commandment to Israel to not worship other gods, this does not mean that I'm subject to the commandment. I'm subject to the Holy Spirit. To Christ.

Much love!

My brother (and I mean that with every bit of love and regard I can muster), the idea that a law (in this case, the "law of love") can be "sorted," as you call it, yet cannot be written, as a commandment, and that the law is strictly a single thing unless it is called the "law of love," is internally inconsistent, bordering on absurdity. If something sorted can be expressed, it can be written down. The apostles taught the "law of love" entirely, as Christ did, using the Old Testament.

The two great commandments themselves are quotes from the Old Testament, and are therefore part of the "single item" law which you seem to be saying was with Israel only.

The new covenant itself was first precisely declared in the book of Jeremiah which, again, is part of the "single item" law system that's portrayed by Sabbath objectors as obsolete. (Even though God Himself expressed his willingness to regenerate human hearts as early in Scripture as Deuteronomy 5:29 and Genesis 3:15)

And the fact remains that no one taught this stuff before the church went into the Internet wilderness.

If someone could find me just one pre-1990 reference to someone teaching that the Ten Commandments in general, and the 4th in particular were part of a complete, obsolete covenant with ancient Israel, I'd have something to at least chew on in consideration for re-evaluating my views.

But the key to the confusion is that no one minds talking about the ten commandments as long as the 4th one is ignored.

.

 

[marks]

and that the law is strictly a single thing unless it is called the "law of love," is internally inconsistent, bordering on absurdity.

Perhaps then we are done for now.

And the fact remains that no one taught this stuff before the church went into the Internet wilderness.

I know for myself this is not true, having witnessed this teach in the 70's in the church I was in. That we are dead to the Law and alive to Christ. That is plainly stated Scripture.

Much love!

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Looks like the deputy from Mayberry is no longer a staff member.

It was weird that a staff member would antagonize board members

That must be why the deputy from Mayberry had his badge removed.

 

[BarneyFife]

Looks like the deputy from Mayberry is no longer a staff member. View attachment 48387

It was weird that a staff member would antagonize board members

That must be why the deputy from Mayberry had his badge removed.

Let's see how much rope this idiot needs to make a good martyr for his one-man cause (figuratively, of course).

.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Let's see how much rope this idiot needs to make a good martyr for his one-man cause (figuratively, of course).

Threatening death against other board members just goes to show what spirit you are of

 

[BarneyFife]

Threatening death against other board members just goes to show what spirit you are of

Death threats? Right. I don't have to do a thing. You do nothing but antagonize. All anyone has to do is wait for you to disappear.

.

 

[BarneyFife]

Threatening death against other board members just goes to show what spirit you are of

You do understand the old saying "Give 'em enough rope...," right? It finishes up with "and they'll hang themselves."

.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

You do understand the old saying "Give 'em enough rope...," right? It finishes up with "and they'll hang themselves."

That's how you lost your deputy badge!

 

[BarneyFife]

That's how you lost your deputy badge! View attachment 48389

I don't discuss administrative affairs in open forum areas. It's a good way to get into trouble.

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