The Prophetic Timeline: Why Jesuit Futurists/Jesuit Preterists Ignore It

[Phoneman777]

The Roman Empire was not the empire that was, and is not, and will ascend out of the abyss and go to perdition at the time John received the Revelation - Rome was the empire that was in existence at the time John received the Revelation. This fact alone should tell us that the kingdom that the Revelation is talking about existed before the Roman Empire:

It's not difficult at all to see in Daniel 8 that the Little Horn describes both pagan Rome which attacked laterally (vs. 9) and finally papal Rome which attacked heaven, namely by hijacking Christ's High Priestly ministry and casting it to the ground (vs. 10).

So, yes, John and Daniel are talking about the same papal power.

The legs of iron in Daniel's image represent the 4th kingdom of Daniel's prophecy, which was divided between Ptolemaic kings of Egypt (the kings of the south) and The Seleucid kings of the Seleucid Empire (the kings of the north), and the 4th kingdom is not the Roman Empire.

Babylon: head of gold
MP: chest/arms of silver
Greece: belly/thighs of brass
ROME: legs of iron
Europe: feet of iron/clay
Stone that strikes the image at its feet: Second Coming of Jesus

Besides this, the Revelation says absolutely nothing about the final king subduing three kings - because that already happened when Antiochs IV Epiphanes - the type of the coming Antichrist - subdued three legitimate heirs to the throne of the 4th kingdom - the Seleucid Empire which did not meet its end in the way that was prophesied. The 'descendant' of that empire is the beast that will ascend out of the bottomless pit.

What "ten horns" did Antiochus arise among? Right, zero.
How long did Antiochus take away the "daily"? Right, no where near 2300/1150 Days, as historians attest.
To what "very great" kingdom did Antiochus become "exceeding great"? Right, none.

However, papal Rome absolutely did these things.

If you are truly "a Protestant historicist" you would not identify the empire that existed when John received the Revelation as the one that will fulfill the prophecy, because your knowledge of biblical history would tell you that though almost everything prophesied regarding the 4th kingdom of Daniel was fulfilled by the time Antiochus IV met his end, it was not all fulfilled.

No actions attributed to the Little Horn were fulfilled in the time of Antiochus:

He was not "exceeding great"
He didn't "take away the daily" for 2300 Days or 1150 Days
He didn't "speak great words" aka "blasphemies" by claiming to be God and the power to forgive sin
His persecutions of God's people didn't even begin to approach what would be to "wear out the saints"
He didn't "think to changes the times and laws"

Papal Rome absolutely did all these things

Christ will destroy it after it has ascended out of the abyss. It has nothing to do with Rome.

The Beast which ascends from the bottomless pit refers to purely secular political powers controlled by secret Luciferian societies which are themselves controlled by the papacy via the Jesuit Order.

 

[Phoneman777]

It is where it goes.

According to who?

Jesus never said, OK, I will remember you in thousands of years.

That's exactly what He meant.
"I say unto you today while I hang here looking like no Savior at all, you will be with Me in paradise".

The soul is redeemed once physical death happens.

No where is that taught in Scripture - only by you guys appealing to uninterpreted parables and prophecies.

The Second Birth only Seals a soul, until the day of redemption, which is physical death. Since the thief was redeemed that day, his soul immediately entered God's permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. The soul is not waiting somewhere to be remembered after 3 thousand years. That your erroneous human reasoning.

Where does it say that? Nowhere, friend.

At death, the opposite of Genesis 2:7 KJV happens: The Body returns to the dust, the Breath back to God, and the Soul ceases to exist.

You're arguing that light from a bulb continues to shine when the electric current is removed!

The earth is not left desolate for a thousand years. Isaiah 65 says it is restored and humans will subdue the earth for that one thousand year, Day of the Lord, Sabbath.

"Behold, the Lord maketh the Earth empty, waste, upside down, scattereth the inhabitant abroad".
"The slain of the Lord at that day shall be from one end of the Earth even to the other end".
"I beheld the Earth...without form and void...darkness."
"I beheld...and there was no man and all the birds of the heavens fled away."
"I beheld...all the cities were broken down by the presence of the Lord and by His fierce anger".
"The whole land shall be desolate, yet I will not make a full end."
"The day of the Lord shall come...in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise".
"The day of the Lord shal come...and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."
"The day of the Lord shall come...and the Earth and the works therein shall be burned up."

Jesus comes to collect the saints and the Breath of Life from the nostrils of the wicked, leaving them as human litter all over the Earth for Satan and company to behold for 1,000 years, after which New Jerusalem is transported to here and the wicked are raised for judgment.

The earth after the Flood was not left desolate for a thousand years. The baptism of fire will not leave the earth desolate for a thousand years either.

The duration of the one has nothing to do with the other.

 

[Earburner]

You all can play around with your own versions of denominational doctrines, aka "the wisdom of men", but as for my understanding, the Holy Spirit, through the KJV, reveals that there are "many" that are "of that spirit of antichrist".
There was only one "little horn" that shall ever be, and that was AE-lV. There is no other future "little horn" to come, that church-ianity calls THE Antichrist.

In all of that, you all have read my understanding, therefore leaving that, I am jumping far forward to today, to show what we all are really looking at, concerning the 10H Beast that was, is not and yet is, of whom financially "carries" the whore, MBTG.

> Key: for the following scripture references in Rev. 13.
All [Insertions] in red are my comments.
The 10HB- Global Economic Empire- the Banking Industry.
The 10 Horns- out of Europe.
The 2HB- the USA.
The Image- the United Nations.
The Whore, MBTG- the nation State of Israel.

> The 4th beast of Daniel, in it's final evolved conglomerate state, Rev. 13:1-18.
Rev. 13
[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea [of multitudes of people], having seven heads [Babylon- 1, Med/Per.- 1, Grecian- 4 Generals, and the Rom Emp.- 1] and ten horns [European], and upon his horns ten crowns [designated European kingdoms], and upon his [7] heads the name of blasphemy [through time, the "whore, MBTG" sat on all 7 heads].

[2] And the beast [Rom. Emp.] which I saw was like unto a leopard [Grecian], and his feet were as the feet of a bear [Med/Per.], and his mouth as the mouth of a lion [Babylon]: and the dragon [satan] gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

[3] And I saw one of his [7] heads [Rom. Emp.] as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
[4] And they [Luciferians- Banking Elite literally] worshipped the dragon [Lucifer/satan] which gave power unto the [10H] beast: and they worshipped [complied with] the [10H] beast , saying, Who is like unto the beast [no previous Beasts were like it]? who is able to make war with him [being NOT a militaristic empire]?

[5] And there was given unto him [the 10HB] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was GIVEN unto him to continue forty and two months [1260 days, or 3.5 yrs. The same amount of time that satan had GIVEN for John the Baptist- 6 mos., and Jesus- 3 years.]
[6] And he [the10HB in it's final evolved stage] opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
[7] And it was given unto him to make war [economic war] with the saints [by the economic "MoB"], and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations [all people, through the economic "MoB"].
[8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship [comply with] him [the 10HB], whose names [takers of the "MoB"] are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
[9] If any man have an ear, let him hear.
[10] He that leadeth into captivity [economic slavery] shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword [of Jesus' voice, upon His return]. Here is the patience [of waiting] and the faith [endurance] of the saints.

[11] And I beheld another beast [USA] coming up out of the earth [where there was no people]; and he had two horns [two forms of government with military] like a lamb [depicting youth], and he spake [deceptively, for world peace] as a dragon [satan].

[12] And he [2HB-USA] exerciseth [utilized] all the power of the first beast [by making war] before [in the presence of] him [the10HB], and [the 2HB] causeth [persuades] the earth and them which dwell therein to worship [comply with] the first [10H] beast, whose deadly wound was healed [that lived again, but in an evolved state].
[13] And he [2HB-USA] doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire [weapons of war] come down from heaven [the atmosphere] on the earth in the sight of men,
[14] And [the 2HB] deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles [weapons of war] which he had power to do in the sight [presence] of the [10H] beast; saying to them [all people] that dwell on the earth, that they [all people] should make an image [a political likeness, the UN] to the [10H] beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

[15] And he [the 2HB] had power to give [political] life unto the image [the UN] of the beast, [so] that the image [the UN] of the beast should both speak, [legislate] and cause [enforce] that as many as would not worship [comply with] the image [the UN] of the beast should be killed.
[16] And he [the image, the UN] causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark [for individuals], or the name of the beast [for governments], or the number of his name [for businesses].

[18] Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
1 Kings 10:14, is about a man [king Solomon] that had to deal with the number six hundred, threescore and six talents of Gold [which today for us, is fiat MONEY, soon to be DIGITAL MONEY, with a Digital ID. ].

 

[Phoneman777]

When David wrote those words, he had not ascended.

Peter was referring to his present day when he said David had not ascended, and quoted David's own words pointing to when he expected to ascend: when God would make His enemies His footstool.

David was not in sheol, but in Abraham's bosom. What do you think was actually in Abraham's bosom?

"Abraham's bosom" can't be a real place, for we're plainly told Lazarus is seen "in the bosom of Abraham" aka "in the bosom of the man himself" - right or wrong? Do you expect all the righteous dead to be "in the bosom of Abraham"? How big can his bosom be? It is a prophetic symbol. David was and is in his grave aka seplucher.

You seem to contradict yourself saying soul is in sheol, but cannot exist without a physical body?

A "soul in sheol" aka "a soul in the grave" simply means "a dead soul" or "a soul that has ceased to be".

Again, if a Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, how can a Soul continue to exist after the Body and the Breath of Life return to where they came forth?

No physical body goes to sheol.

No physical body goes to "the grave" or "the place of the dead"? Have you been to a funeral?

Peter had said earlier that the body was dead and in a sepulchre. That body returns to dust and is never resurrected. That is a body of death, temporal, of corruption.

Correct, the Body returns to dust, the Breath returns to God, and the Soul ceases to be until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

God's body in Paradise is permanent and incorruptible.

Can any one say that the disciples even knew that Jesus ascended with the OT redeemed?

It was only "many" of the bodies of the saints which slept - not "all" of them - and that happened at His glorified ascension weeks after His death/resurrection. Was not the Feast of the First Fruits a small portion of the larger harvest? Likewise, the saints that resurrected when Jesus died and accompanied Him weeks later to heaven was in like manner a small portion of the larger harvest at the end of time when all hear the voice of the Son of Man which is the voice of the Archangel and the dead in Christ shall rise.

Paul said that Jesus led captivity, captive. Ephesians 4. Jesus descended as a soul, and then ascended out of Abraham's bosom immediately. Those physical bodies came out of their graves immediately. What Jesus did the rest of the 3 days was wait. Jesus said he would be 3 days and 3 nights as one dead. When that time was accomplished the body left the tomb even before the stone was rolled away.

You guys always claim "the Spirit of Jesus preached to the spirits in prison" after He died because you ignore the context of that passage is the FLOOD - Peter is simply saying what God told Moses: that His Spirit would strive for 120 years with the Antediluvians via the Spirit of Jesus preaching to them who bound in the "prison" house of sin - not dead folks locked up in some ridiculous subterranean holding chamber.

Only those whose souls left their old body.

If by " left the body" you mean "life has left the body" - agreed. If by that, you mean "a transparent disembodied something that looks, thinks, remembers as the person who died" - well then, that's paganism.

No one said hundreds or thousands of bodies were left dead hanging around Jerusalem or all over the earth. Those physical bodies that came out of those graves that day ascended to Paradise.

Pretty sure they didn't precede Jesus Who went up a few weeks afterward...they were seen by many people in the city, which means they had to at least spend a little time making rounds.

 

[Phoneman777]

It may be disputed, but it can't be defeated.

Yes, the idea that the "Stone cut from no man's hands" is anything else but Jesus is preposterous, for whenever the OT faithful stopped to build an altar, they were to gather and pile raw stones without so much as a single chisel strike to them - for God has warned if they did so, "thou hast polluted it".

A blind man can see the message behind that: they were not to mingle human "works" with the Sacrifice.

The Stone cut from no man's hands ain't an altar, nor an angel, and certainly not a saved sinner: it's Jesus.

 

[Phoneman777]

Within Adam, God create all the millions of different living cells, prior to him receiving "the breath of life".
Q. What is it that our living cells require to stay alive?
A. Oxygenated air, that is picked up by the blood cells from our lungs.
Lev. 17
[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

All I know is all those cells were dead until God breathed the Breath of Life into Adam's Body and became a lIving Soul. At death, the Breath returns to God, the Body to the dust, and the Soul ceases to exist, and there is no other way to interpret this.

To argue Souls continue to exist after death is to argue light from a bulb continues to shine after it's switched off.

 

[Earburner]

Yes, the idea that the "Stone cut from no man's hands" is anything else but Jesus is preposterous, for whenever the OT faithful stopped to build an altar, they were to gather and pile raw stones without so much as a single chisel strike to them - for God has warned if they did so, "thou hast polluted it".

A blind man can see the message behind that: they were not to mingle human "works" with the Sacrifice.

The Stone cut from no man's hands ain't an altar, nor an angel, and certainly not a saved sinner: it's Jesus.

Amen.

 

[Earburner]

All I know is all those cells were dead until God breathed the Breath of Life into Adam's Body and became a lIving Soul. At death, the Breath returns to God, the Body to the dust, and the Soul ceases to exist, and there is no other way to interpret this.

To argue Souls continue to exist after death is to argue light from a bulb continues to shine after it's switched off.

God created dead cells?? Adam was not created with dead cells!
In the moment of seconds, after Adam was physically created, God breathed into him oxygenated air. Sorry, Moses never attended Biology 101, or Chemistry 101. But he did understand that when one doesn't or can't breathe, death is the next event.

how long can blood be stored at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

^ (Foolish "AI", it forgot a punctuation mark. DuckDuck Go is a search engine, not a storage facility for blood.)

Edit: BTW, for one to become a "living soul", is to say that one is autonomous and independent of that which it was created by or birthed from, whether that be animal or human.

 

[Earburner]

Peter was referring to his present day when he said David had not ascended, and quoted David's own words pointing to when he expected to ascend: when God would make His enemies His footstool.

"Abraham's bosom" can't be a real place, for we're plainly told Lazarus is seen "in the bosom of Abraham" aka "in the bosom of the man himself" - right or wrong? Do you expect all the righteous dead to be "in the bosom of Abraham"? How big can his bosom be? It is a prophetic symbol. David was and is in his grave aka seplucher.

A "soul in sheol" aka "a soul in the grave" simply means "a dead soul" or "a soul that has ceased to be".

Again, if a Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, how can a Soul continue to exist after the Body and the Breath of Life return to where they came forth?

No physical body goes to "the grave" or "the place of the dead"? Have you been to a funeral?

Correct, the Body returns to dust, the Breath returns to God, and the Soul ceases to be until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

It was only "many" of the bodies of the saints which slept - not "all" of them - and that happened at His glorified ascension weeks after His death/resurrection. Was not the Feast of the First Fruits a small portion of the larger harvest? Likewise, the saints that resurrected when Jesus died and accompanied Him weeks later to heaven was in like manner a small portion of the larger harvest at the end of time when all hear the voice of the Son of Man which is the voice of the Archangel and the dead in Christ shall rise.

You guys always claim "the Spirit of Jesus preached to the spirits in prison" after He died because you ignore the context of that passage is the FLOOD - Peter is simply saying what God told Moses: that His Spirit would strive for 120 years with the Antediluvians via the Spirit of Jesus preaching to them who bound in the "prison" house of sin - not dead folks locked up in some ridiculous subterranean holding chamber.

If by " left the body" you mean "life has left the body" - agreed. If by that, you mean "a transparent disembodied something that looks, thinks, remembers as the person who died" - well then, that's paganism.

Pretty sure they didn't precede Jesus Who went up a few weeks afterward...they were seen by many people in the city, which means they had to at least spend a little time making rounds.

Have you thought this through?
No one under the OC. could have the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, until AFTER the shedding of Christ's blood, for the forgiveness and removal of their sins. The temple sacrifices were for only the forgiveness of sin, for a period of one year, and then had to be performed again.

The best that God could do for anyone, who lived under the OC, was to have their names written in a book of Remembrance. Malachi 3:16.
They who were "Remembered" by God, resurrected upon the instance of Jesus' mortal death on the cross (Mat. 27:50-54), and are those who were of Israel, under the altar of the OC., aka the symbolic 144,000, the First fruits. Rev. 6:9-11.

No one should ever think that the whole book of Revelation is only about the FAR future.
God thinks in the the past, present, and the future, all at the SAME time, and therefore speaks accordingly.

 

[Earburner]

You guys always claim "the Spirit of Jesus preached to the spirits in prison" after He died because you ignore the context of that passage is the FLOOD - Peter is simply saying what God told Moses: that His Spirit would strive for 120 years with the Antediluvians via the Spirit of Jesus preaching to them who bound in the "prison" house of sin - not dead folks locked up in some ridiculous subterranean holding chamber.

It's NOT ABOUT only the people of the Flood, but rather all people UPTO and AFTER the Flood of Noah, then Abraham to Malachi!!
With God and all people, there is only the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
Gen. 4
[3] And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
[4] And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
[5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
[6] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
[8] And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

[9] And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
[10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's [innocent] blood crieth unto me from the ground [for vengeance].
"The shedding of innocent blood, is an abomination unto the LORD". Prov. 6:16-17 (specifically the blood of Jesus).

It is apparent that we all do not fully understand the value that God places upon blood.
We can see that Cain surely DID NOT.

It is also apparent that by Able's offering, he understood what the LORD required for an offering FOR SIN, of which he would have been informed and instructed by Adam, on what the correct offering was towards God.

Was there a break down in communication with Cain, or was it that Cain, being self willed in the matter, thought that ANY OFFERING, was a sufficient offering unto the LORD, to gain temporary atonement for sin?
With Cain, I perceive the latter.

1 Peter 3
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for [ALL] the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison [of eternal death];
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Malachi 3:16; Rev. 6:9-11.

The number of 144,000 is not a number to count, but rather in it's formulation, it is a symbolic number of completion, of everyone that God "Remembered", who lived and died in faith, under the altar of the OC.

 

[Zao is life]

It's not difficult at all to see in Daniel 8 that the Little Horn describes both pagan Rome which attacked laterally (vs. 9) and finally papal Rome which attacked heaven, namely by hijacking Christ's High Priestly ministry and casting it to the ground (vs. 10).

So, yes, John and Daniel are talking about the same papal power.

Babylon: head of gold
MP: chest/arms of silver
Greece: belly/thighs of brass
ROME: legs of iron
Europe: feet of iron/clay
Stone that strikes the image at its feet: Second Coming of Jesus

What "ten horns" did Antiochus arise among? Right, zero.
How long did Antiochus take away the "daily"? Right, no where near 2300/1150 Days, as historians attest.
To what "very great" kingdom did Antiochus become "exceeding great"? Right, none.

However, papal Rome absolutely did these things.

No actions attributed to the Little Horn were fulfilled in the time of Antiochus:

He was not "exceeding great"
He didn't "take away the daily" for 2300 Days or 1150 Days
He didn't "speak great words" aka "blasphemies" by claiming to be God and the power to forgive sin
His persecutions of God's people didn't even begin to approach what would be to "wear out the saints"
He didn't "think to changes the times and laws"

Papal Rome absolutely did all these things

The Beast which ascends from the bottomless pit refers to purely secular political powers controlled by secret Luciferian societies which are themselves controlled by the papacy via the Jesuit Order.

It's not difficult at all to see that the Revelation associates the ten kings with the beast that had existed before John received the Revelation (i.e before the days of the Roman empire), but no longer existed by the time John received the Revelation.

Revelation 17:8 & 11-14 states that those ten kings will reign with that same beast that had existed but no longer existed by the time of the days of the Roman Empire, when that beast has ascended from the abyss.

Therefore, if the ten toes of the feet of the image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream are the same as the ten kings of Revelation 13 and 17, then the two legs of iron in Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Daniel chapter 2) cannot possibly be referring to the Roman Empire - but they can however be a reference to the divided, partly strong and partly weak Greek kingdoms of the North and of the South which became the two most powerful of the four kingdoms that succeeded the 3rd 'beast' of Daniel's prophecy:

The Seleucid kingdom of (the kings of the North in Daniel's prophecies); and the Ptolemaic Egyptian kingdom (the kings of the South in Daniel's prophecies).

Revelation 13:2 describes this beast, once it has ascended from the abyss, as being like a leopard, its feet being like those of a bear, and its mouth being like the mouth of a lion - the very symbols used for the Greek Empire, the Persian Empire that preceded it, and the Babylonian Empire which preceded the Persian Empire.

Matthew Henry's Bible Commentary does a good job of showing the correlation between the history of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the text of Daniel. You would do well to read his commentaries on Daniel, and then checking the history in non-biblical sources, instead of showing your ignorance of historical facts.

The traditional applying of the legs of iron to Rome is over 100 years too early for the Roman Empire. Those legs of iron represents two of the four kingdoms that came out of Daniel's 3rd beast (Daniel 7) of which Egypt and Seleucia became the most powerful.

The feet of iron and clay represent the same kingdoms - the lion, the leopard and the bear - mentioned in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13:2 - it is this kingdom that John was told no longer existed by 100 A.D, and that John was told would ascend once again from the abyss.

It has nothing to do with Rome or the Roman Empire. The reason why Revelation 13:2 has the 3 kingdoms mentioned by Daniel in reverse order is because the final kingdom is the mirror image of the first three - Greece (the leopard) having been last (the kingdom that had existed but no longer existed by the time John received the Revelation), and before that, Persia (the bear), and before that, Babylon (the lion).

When it ascends again out of the abyss, the feet of iron and clay and the ten kings will come out of that empire which no longer existed in the days of the Roman Empire and John receiving the Revelation.

It's not difficult at all to see that your eschatology is mistaken and based either on ignorance of historical facts (or ignoring historical facts so as to attempt to force scripture to comply with a pre-decided eschatological outcome).

Atiochus IV Epiphanes indeed did continue his tyranny of the Jews of Jerusalem for 2300 Days and take away the daily sacrifices. He did indeed "speak great words" aka "blasphemies" by placing an idol to Zeus in the holy place of the 2nd temple and claiming to be Zeus and accepting the sacrifices he forced the Jews to make to Zeus as sacrifices made to himself. His persecutions of God's people did indeed "wear out the saints" - the Maccabees and their followers had to flee into exile to plan against him.

He did indeed "think to changes the times and laws".

He is indeed a type of the final Antichrist.

Your ignorance of historical facts is showing in the assertions you make.

Talk about "changing set times and laws" - instead of ackowleding historical facts and biblical facts, you have shown in this thread how determined you are to change facts in order to try to force them to comply with your own pre-decided theological and eschatological outcomes. Which is very much the same basic reasons for an Antichrist figure (Antiochus IV Epiphanes) or any coming Antichrist wanting to change set times and laws.

The ten kings of the beast are not the harlot they are going to destroy. The scriptures do not conflate the beast and the harlot the way you do in your theology.​

 

[Earburner]

It's not difficult at all to see that the Revelation associates the ten kings with the beast that had existed before John received the Revelation (i.e before the days of the Roman empire), but no longer existed by the time John received the Revelation.

Revelation 17:8 & 11-14 states that those ten kings will reign with that same beast that had existed but no longer existed by the time of the days of the Roman Empire, when that beast has ascended from the abyss.

Therefore, if the ten toes of the feet of the image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream are the same as the ten kings of Revelation 13 and 17, then the two legs of iron in Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Daniel chapter 2) cannot possibly be referring to the Roman Empire - but they can however be a reference to the divided, partly strong and partly weak Greek kingdoms of the North and of the South which became the two most powerful of the four kingdoms that succeeded the 3rd 'beast' of Daniel's prophecy:

The Seleucid kingdom of (the kings of the North in Daniel's prophecies); and the Ptolemaic Egyptian kingdom (the kings of the South in Daniel's prophecies).

Revelation 13:2 describes this beast, once it has ascended from the abyss, as being like a leopard, its feet being like those of a bear, and its mouth being like the mouth of a lion - the very symbols used for the Greek Empire, the Persian Empire that preceded it, and the Babylonian Empire which preceded the Persian Empire.

Matthew Henry's Bible Commentary does a good job of showing the correlation between the history of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the text of Daniel. You would do well to read his commentaries on Daniel, and then checking the history in non-biblical sources, instead of showing your ignorance of historical facts.

The traditional applying of the legs of iron to Rome is over 100 years too early for the Roman Empire. Those legs of iron represents two of the four kingdoms that came out of Daniel's 3rd beast (Daniel 7) of which Egypt and Seleucia became the most powerful.

The feet of iron and clay represent the same kingdoms - the lion, the leopard and the bear - mentioned in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13:2 - it is this kingdom that John was told no longer existed by 100 A.D, and that John was told would ascend once again from the abyss.

It has nothing to do with Rome or the Roman Empire. The reason why Revelation 13:2 has the 3 kingdoms mentioned by Daniel in reverse order is because the final kingdom is the mirror image of the first three - Greece (the leopard) having been last (the kingdom that had existed but no longer existed by the time John received the Revelation), and before that, Persia (the bear), and before that, Babylon (the lion).

When it ascends again out of the abyss, the feet of iron and clay and the ten kings will come out of that empire which no longer existed in the days of the Roman Empire and John receiving the Revelation.

It's not difficult at all to see that your eschatology is mistaken and based either on ignorance of historical facts (or ignoring historical facts so as to attempt to force scripture to comply with a pre-decided eschatological outcome).

Atiochus IV Epiphanes indeed did continue his tyranny of the Jews of Jerusalem for 2300 Days and take away the daily sacrifices. He did indeed "speak great words" aka "blasphemies" by placing an idol to Zeus in the holy place of the 2nd temple and claiming to be Zeus and accepting the sacrifices he forced the Jews to make to Zeus as sacrifices made to himself. His persecutions of God's people did indeed "wear out the saints" - the Maccabees and their followers had to flee into exile to plan against him.

He did indeed "think to changes the times and laws".

He is indeed a type of the final Antichrist.

Your ignorance of historical facts is showing in the assertions you make.

Talk about "changing set times and laws" - instead of ackowleding historical facts and biblical facts, you have shown in this thread how determined you are to change facts in order to try to force them to comply with your own pre-decided theological and eschatological outcomes. Which is very much the same basic reasons for an Antichrist figure (Antiochus IV Epiphanes) or any coming Antichrist wanting to change set times and laws.

The ten kings of the beast are not the harlot they are going to destroy. The scriptures do not conflate the beast and the harlot the way you do in your theology.​

Correct, the papacy and/or the 10H are not the "mother of harlots" but rather it is the nation state of Israel, which "is fallen" (divorced-from God- Mat. 21:43).

Both scripture (Daniel 2:33) and history prove that the Two legs of iron was the original Roman Empire (27 BC), but had EVOLVED into two empires.

1. Legs of Iron- Eastern Empire (Constantinople) and Western Empire (Rome).
> Both Evolved into:

2. Feet of  Iron mixed with Clay-  Europe and the Papacy , being "partly strong and partly broken".
> Now Evolving into:

3. A Global Economic Empire by the Banking elite. Which is revealed by the words: "the mark of the Beast, having 10Hs". That final EVOLVED state of the 4th Beast, has NO standing army.
Therefore, 10 horns from NATO European countries, will be designated to protect the Economic Empire of the Beast, from both man and Jesus' Glorious return. But, just prior to Jesus' return, the 10Hs, will burn the whore (along with Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran) with fire.
Rev. 17:16, 9:14-21.

 

[Zao is life]

Correct, the papacy is not the "mother of harlots" but rather it is the nation state of Israel, which "is fallen" (divorced-from God- Mat. 21:43).

Both scripture (Daniel 2:33) and history prove that the Two legs of iron was the original Roman Empire (27 BC), but had EVOLVED into two empires.

1. Legs of Iron- Eastern Empire (Constantinople) and
Western Empire (Rome).
> Both Evolved into:

2. Feet of  Iron mixed with Clay-  Europe and the Papacy , being "partly strong and partly broken".
> Now Evolving: into:

A Global Economic Empire by the Banking elite.
Which is revealed by the words: "the mark of the Beast, having 10Hs", aka the final EVOLVED state of the 4th Beast.

Divorce and Decline: The Division of East and West Roman Empires

The Roman Empire was split again in 395 AD upon the death of Theodosius I, Roman Emperor in Constantinople, never again to be made whole. He divided...

www.historyhit.com

Here's the plain history, minus all the (mis)interpretations of Revelation 13 and 17 such as the misinterpretations you see above.

The longer you deny historical facts the way you do, the more you prove that the reason why you find it impossible to acknowledge historical facts is because of your enslavement to denominational doctrines that are false.

The Roman Empire did not exist before the days of the Roman Empire. The beast that had existed before John's day no longer existed when he received the Revelation in the days of the Roman Empire. That beast was one of the 5 kingdoms that had come and gone. The Roman Empire was the 6th.

Revelation 17 says that when it ascends again from out of the abyss, the ten kings of the Revelation will reign with the beast that had existed before John received the Revelation i.e before the days when Rome had become an empire.

The Kingdoms of Daniel's Prophecies

This is how the book of Daniel identifies the kingdoms:- Daniel 7 symbolizes them as: (I) Lion: Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian kingdom. (II)...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[Timtofly]

According to who?

That's exactly what He meant.
"I say unto you today while I hang here looking like no Savior at all, you will be with Me in paradise".

No where is that taught in Scripture - only by you guys appealing to uninterpreted parables and prophecies.

Where does it say that? Nowhere, friend.

At death, the opposite of Genesis 2:7 KJV happens: The Body returns to the dust, the Breath back to God, and the Soul ceases to exist.

You're arguing that light from a bulb continues to shine when the electric current is removed!

"Behold, the Lord maketh the Earth empty, waste, upside down, scattereth the inhabitant abroad".
"The slain of the Lord at that day shall be from one end of the Earth even to the other end".
"I beheld the Earth...without form and void...darkness."
"I beheld...and there was no man and all the birds of the heavens fled away."
"I beheld...all the cities were broken down by the presence of the Lord and by His fierce anger".
"The whole land shall be desolate, yet I will not make a full end."
"The day of the Lord shall come...in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise".
"The day of the Lord shal come...and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."
"The day of the Lord shall come...and the Earth and the works therein shall be burned up."

Jesus comes to collect the saints and the Breath of Life from the nostrils of the wicked, leaving them as human litter all over the Earth for Satan and company to behold for 1,000 years, after which New Jerusalem is transported to here and the wicked are raised for judgment.

The duration of the one has nothing to do with the other.

The majority of text, not swayed by those with your opinion, place the comma where it is.

And the thief entered Paradise that same day Jesus hung there, as you described.

You put your trust in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. You have no trust that God can give you, as you are only the soul, a permanent incorruptible physical body, on the day you are redeemed from this death, and made alive. Which is exactly the instant, that day, the body you place all your trust in returns to dust, despite being pumped full of embalming fluids, and especially if you are cremated.

You do not cease to exist as you are the soul, and nothing else. You are not your physical body. You are not a spirit. All you have going for you is that you are a soul, and you claim you cease to exist, because you have all your trust in the body of death, that does cease to exist and returns to dust.

Your body is not changed. You change to a totally different body, like a brand new set of clothes. Paul says we, the soul, put off corruption, and put on incorruption. Paul says the soul is either naked, or clothed.

You are arguing that you are a technical wonder created by humans instead of God. You are not a light in a light bulb, but if that is what you think, your creator is a human in some factory.

The 8th kingdom is under Satan's control after the 7th Trumpet for 42 months. That is the extent of your desolation and abomination in all these verses:

"Behold, the Lord maketh the Earth empty, waste, upside down, scattereth the inhabitant abroad".

"The slain of the Lord at that day shall be from one end of the Earth even to the other end".

"I beheld the Earth...without form and void...darkness."

"I beheld...and there was no man and all the birds of the heavens fled away."

"I beheld...all the cities were broken down by the presence of the Lord and by His fierce anger".

"The day of the Lord shall come...and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."

"The day of the Lord shall come...and the Earth also, and the works therein shall be burned up."


After Satan's 42 months, all things will be made new for the Millennial Kingdom. Satan is bound for those 1,000 years in the pit, not on the earth. 42 months is the length, not 1,000 years as you propose.

The soul is not a light nor air. The soul can only come into existence by God's will. No souls were in existence prior to the 6th day. No soul is in existence prior to conception. But the soul is each individual eternal from that point on. A soul does not pop in and out of existence like a light or air as you imagine yourself to be. Which is it, are you a light or air?

How can you consider yourself to be an actual part of God anyway, God's breath? That which you say God takes back out of your nostril the "air" that created you? God's breath in your analogy would be part of the light bulb, not you. It would be the energy added to the physical body of the light bulb. You are not the energy of electricity, but the result, and not light, as that is not you, just an anology. You would keep existing as a light without the light bulb, if God actually created light bulbs. Your light would never cease to exist, but you would be placed into a different bulb. One that would last longer than the dead bulb handed down from your light bulb parents. You still could not take credit as the energy that keeps you alive, as that would be God via the Holy Spirit, not you.

As I pointed out. God is not physical, nor is that air you claim coming back out of a nostril, you, nor physical air. Physical air is the closest analogy God's Word declares in the creation of a son of God. When Jesus gave back the spirit, He was not giving back air, but the literal spirit. That spirit could not remain on a dead body, nor enter Abraham's bosom.

You are not correctly interpreting Genesis 2:7

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

God is not saying you are the breath that was breathed into the nostrils of the physical body. That is the description of the energy, according to your light bulb analogy. The soul was not the energy. The soul was the result of the energy within the physical body. The light is not the electricity connected to the light bulb, but the result of electricity and the physical bulb. The soul was the result between the power of the Holy Spirit and the physical body. Which indicates the Holy Spirit is at work from the moment of conception. More so in some than in others. John the Baptist being a prime example of being totally controlled by the Holy Spirit.

Since no verse declares your imagination that the air is sucked back out of a nostril, I will stick with the Holy Spirit being removed totally from the earth. Yet the souls don't need the Holy Spirit to exist. The soul will still be tossed into the LOF.

 

[Timtofly]

Peter was referring to his present day when he said David had not ascended, and quoted David's own words pointing to when he expected to ascend: when God would make His enemies His footstool.

"Abraham's bosom" can't be a real place, for we're plainly told Lazarus is seen "in the bosom of Abraham" aka "in the bosom of the man himself" - right or wrong? Do you expect all the righteous dead to be "in the bosom of Abraham"? How big can his bosom be? It is a prophetic symbol. David was and is in his grave aka seplucher.

A "soul in sheol" aka "a soul in the grave" simply means "a dead soul" or "a soul that has ceased to be".

Again, if a Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, how can a Soul continue to exist after the Body and the Breath of Life return to where they came forth?

No physical body goes to "the grave" or "the place of the dead"? Have you been to a funeral?

Correct, the Body returns to dust, the Breath returns to God, and the Soul ceases to be until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

It was only "many" of the bodies of the saints which slept - not "all" of them - and that happened at His glorified ascension weeks after His death/resurrection. Was not the Feast of the First Fruits a small portion of the larger harvest? Likewise, the saints that resurrected when Jesus died and accompanied Him weeks later to heaven was in like manner a small portion of the larger harvest at the end of time when all hear the voice of the Son of Man which is the voice of the Archangel and the dead in Christ shall rise.

You guys always claim "the Spirit of Jesus preached to the spirits in prison" after He died because you ignore the context of that passage is the FLOOD - Peter is simply saying what God told Moses: that His Spirit would strive for 120 years with the Antediluvians via the Spirit of Jesus preaching to them who bound in the "prison" house of sin - not dead folks locked up in some ridiculous subterranean holding chamber.

If by " left the body" you mean "life has left the body" - agreed. If by that, you mean "a transparent disembodied something that looks, thinks, remembers as the person who died" - well then, that's paganism.

Pretty sure they didn't precede Jesus Who went up a few weeks afterward...they were seen by many people in the city, which means they had to at least spend a little time making rounds.

Once again, you are missing the point that when Jesus said it is finished was the point in time albeit 3 days later when David would ascend and the Lord Jesus took that seat of authority. Jesus did return to earth for another 40 days to do what we are not told in Scripture, other than He was still at work on the earth. Peter’s point was that those Jews had crucified the Lord, David was referring to.

Why are you arguing about literal places when it comes to the pit? Is not the earth still a physical place that the pit is somewhere under the surface of the earth? Is not heaven still a physical place created by God in Genesis 1?

Creation is both physical and spiritual, not one or the other.

You are still missing the point that a soul that is dead is not meaning the cessation of existence.

The soul is physically dead without a physical body.

The soul is spiritually dead not having the spirit.

The physical body is not spirit, and the spirit is not part of the physical body. They are two distinct realities that are connected to you, the soul.

Adam and Eve realized the body was naked when the spirit was removed.

The soul is naked when the physical body is removed.

One is not a son of God, restored until the soul puts on a physical body, and puts on the spirit over the physical body. That is the original way Adam and all the other sons of God were created on the 6th day. The spirit of a son of God is not the Holy Spirit inside.

You are still in Adam's dead flesh and blood which cannot inherit the kingdom, but you have submitted to the Holy Spirit via the second birth. That makes you a son of God in name, but not in the restored redemption state. The Holy Spirit Seals you until the day of redemption, when the soul puts on God's permanent incorruptible physical body, and leaves Adam's flesh and blood to return to dust.

Paganism is human explanation sans God. The soul is a real existing eternal being as declared in God's Word. You are avoiding both the Word of God and Paganism in your effort to argue against Paganism as some strawman fallacy.

God designed the soul to be eternal. Why is that so hard of a concept to grasp. The only point of a soul without a body is in the grave. You are denying the reality of the past 6,000 years of creation. Why would l offer why and how, when only God knows the why and how, a soul is eternal? You claim the soul ceases to exist, due to an incorrect interpretation, and you cannot even follow the logic of your light bulb analogy. A human created light bulb needs electricity. The soul is created by God in God's wisdom and knowledge not human understanding. Your analogy cannot replace God in no way shape or form. God does not have to disclose why or how the soul is eternal. God declares the soul is eternal.

You argue the soul is not eternal, by placing the soul into human terms and understanding, and removing all faith and trust in God, that God knows what He is talking about.

Jesus ascended twice. Once on Sunday morning and again from the mount of Olives. Remember that Jesus would just appear, and then go away again several times. We are not told what Jesus did while not with His disciples. They did not know either.

 

[Earburner]

Here's the plain history, minus all the (mis)interpretations of Revelation 13 and 17 such as the misinterpretations you see above.
The longer you deny historical facts the way you do, the more you prove that the reason why you find it impossible to acknowledge historical facts is because of your enslavement to denominational doctrines that are false.

After looking over your lengthy reference, it is not I that is teaching by the wisdom of men. 1 Cor. 2:5

The Roman Empire did not exist before the days of the Roman Empire. The beast that had existed before John's day no longer existed when he received the Revelation in the days of the Roman Empire. That beast was one of the 5 kingdoms that had come and gone. The Roman Empire was the 6th.

Correct. There was the Roman Republic first, then the Roman Empire in 27 BC.

Revelation 17 says that when it ascends again from out of the abyss, the ten kings of the Revelation will reign with the beast that had existed before John received the Revelation i.e before the days when Rome had become an empire.

What you and everyone else are NOT understanding, is that the prophecy about the 4th Beast, from Romulus, the Roman Republic, the Roman Empire, to the time of today, and the soon to be "MoB", has been unfolding for a very long time, through the numerous stages it has evolved through.

It's last and final stage is in process NOW, being that of a Global Economic Empire,
which has no standing military whatsoever.
 But, when that Economic Empire visibly enters onto the world scene, it will acquire and dedicate (crown) 10 countries out of Europe for its protection from both man and God.
THEN and only then, shall the 10H prophecy be literally fulfilled, concerning the fulness of the 10H Beast.

 

[Phoneman777]

God created dead cells?? Adam was not created with dead cells!
In the moment of seconds, after Adam was physically created, God breathed into him oxygenated air. Sorry, Moses never attended Biology 101, or Chemistry 101. But he did understand that when one doesn't or can't breathe, death is the next event.

how long can blood be stored at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

^ (Foolish "AI", it forgot a punctuation mark. DuckDuck Go is a search engine, not a storage facility for blood.)

Edit: BTW, for one to become a "living soul", is to say that one is autonomous and independent of that which it was created by or birthed from, whether that be animal or human.

Just before God breathed in Adam the Breath of Life and he became a "living" soul:
Was he alive?
No.
What do we refer to that which is not alive?
Dead.

 

[Earburner]

Why are you arguing about literal places when it comes to the pit? Is not the earth still a physical place that the pit is somewhere under the surface of the earth? Is not heaven still a physical place created by God in Genesis 1?

Rev. 20
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain [symbolic of darkness, no light from God, aka "chains of darkness"] in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless [the place of unending death] pit [grave], and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The "bottomless" "pit" is this literal earth, the place of satan's unending death.

 

[Phoneman777]

Have you thought this through?

Yes

No one under the OC. could have the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, until AFTER the shedding of Christ's blood, for the forgiveness and removal of their sins. The temple sacrifices were for only the forgiveness of sin, for a period of one year, and then had to be performed again.

That's popular Dispensational nonsense used to explain (incorrectly) the difference between the operation of the Holy Spirit in the OT and NT, friend. There's several examples of OT figures indwelt by the Holy Spirit without any single indication it was temporary. Did King David pray, "prevent not Thy Holy Spirit from returning to me" or did he pray, "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me"?

So, what was the operational difference?

The partial impartation of the Holy Spirit in the OT was limited to the "fruits of the Holy Spirit" while the full impartation of the NT was complete with "gifts of the Holy Spirit".

The best that God could do for anyone, who lived under the OC, was to have their names written in a book of Remembrance. Malachi 3:16.
They who were "Remembered" by God, resurrected upon the instance of Jesus' mortal death on the cross (Mat. 27:50-54), and are those who were of Israel, under the altar of the OC., aka the symbolic 144,000, the First fruits. Rev. 6:9-11.

That's it? What about Godly love and obedience? Have you read Isaiah 1:18 KJV or Leviticus 19:17 KJV? These are "fruits" of the Holy Spirit available since time immemorial to all, from Adam to the last sinner.

No one should ever think that the whole book of Revelation is only about the FAR future.
God thinks in the the past, present, and the future, all at the SAME time, and therefore speaks accordingly.

Sadly, most think Revelation stops unfolding at the end of chapter 3 and doesn't resume unfolding until after the so called "secret rapture" and the beginning of the "last 7 years of trib" - textbook Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism co-mingled with Darby's Dispensationalist ideas which were unknown to the Protestant Reformers who knew their Bibles and knew full well the papacy is the Antichrist.

 

[Earburner]

Just before God breathed in Adam the Breath of Life and he became a "living" soul:
Was he alive?
No.
What do we refer to that which is not alive?
Dead.

You are still stuck in your religious indoctrination of pre-concieved thoughts.

Adam was full of living cells that God created within him, waiting for Oxygenated air, to remain alive. Within seconds, God breathed Oxgenated air into him, and then Adam's brain became fully conscious as an autonomous "living soul".