The Prophetic Timeline: Why Jesuit Futurists/Jesuit Preterists Ignore It

[Phoneman777]

So you would rather change Scripture, and state Jesus failed to redeem the thief that day, but the thief would be redeemed from sheol in a couple thousand years, or more?

I never said Jesus didn't redeem the thief that day - I said he didn't expect to be "remembered" until Jesus came "into His kingdom". Neither Jesus nor the thief went to heaven that day.

Where did Jesus' soul go when He died - to heaven? It went to Sheol ("grave") which is down, not up.
What did Jesus say Sunday morning? "I have not yet ascended..."

You do not like that thief very well, to condemn him to sheol.

It means "grave" or "place of the dead" - not some silly "holding chamber" next to "hell".

Don't you also believe that the earth is desolate for another thousand years after Jesus returns or are you a post Millennial SDA, where things keep getting better and better?

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Peter, etc., all predict destruction of the Earth at the Second Coming. It lies dark, silent, destroyed, littered with billions of bodies that were destroyed "at the brightness of His coming". Only Satan and his demons remain for 1,000 years to contemplate the results of their rebellion.

Notice that the thief asked when Jesus comest or arrived into thy kingdom. Luke does not write that as when Jesus returns to set up a kingdom. Even Amil say Jesus is currently reigning as King, as their millennium started at the Cross. Their kingdom on earth starts after the final resurrection, but after this age is over.

How in the world do you conclude that? By a stupid comma that was added by translators (ancient text had ZERO punctuation).

If you want to place a comma, put it where it goes instead of the wrong place that causes confusion:

"Verily, I say unto you today (comma, pause, wait, delay), shalt thou be with Me in paradise".

Understand?

Jesus entered the Kingdom when He ascended into heaven on Sunday morning after talking to Mary.

Yes, but not until then. When He died, His Body lay in the tomb, His Spirit returned to God, and the result from that is that He (the "Soul" named "Jesus") died aka "ceased to be until the resurrection".

Yes, His divine nature continued on as before, but His new nature - humanity - died then rose again Sunday.

Jesus told us the kingdom of heaven was without observation in heaven. That was the kingdom the thief would have been asking about. The one Jesus had been talking about.

You guys always confuse the visible literal kingdom of Jesus with the invisible spiritual kingdom of Jesus and you deliberately do that to establish what the Bible doesn't teach.

The kingdom the thief was talking about was the literal, visible, glorious kingdom of Jesus.

Why would we need to be told that Jesus spoke those words "that day"? Was there another day on a Cross without any thieves?

Look, I'll make it simple:

1. Thief asked to be remembered when Jesus trades His priestly robes for kingly robes and returns for us.
2. Jesus assured him that day - while hanging on the Cross looking like anything but a Savior - He would.

Oh, you want the comma to go before "today" instead of after it? Well, you should know in the Septuagint, the word "sameron" ("today") precedes the verb that it modifies only 51 times BUT FOLLOWS THE VERB IT MODIFIES 170 TIMES - understand? So, the majority use of the word "today" has the comma coming after - not before.

 

[Earburner]

I never said Jesus didn't redeem the thief that day - I said he didn't expect to be "remembered" until Jesus came "into His kingdom". Neither Jesus nor the thief went to heaven that day.

Where did Jesus' soul go when He died - to heaven? It went to Sheol ("grave") which is down, not up.
What did Jesus say Sunday morning? "I have not yet ascended..."

It means "grave" or "place of the dead" - not some silly "holding chamber" next to "hell".

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Peter, etc., all predict destruction of the Earth at the Second Coming. It lies dark, silent, destroyed, littered with billions of bodies that were destroyed "at the brightness of His coming". Only Satan and his demons remain for 1,000 years to contemplate the results of their rebellion.

How in the world do you conclude that? By a stupid comma that was added by translators (ancient text had ZERO punctuation).

If you want to place a comma, put it where it goes instead of the wrong place that causes confusion:

"Verily, I say unto you today (comma, pause, wait, delay), shalt thou be with Me in paradise".

Understand?

Yes, but not until then. When He died, His Body lay in the tomb, His Spirit returned to God, and the result from that is that He (the "Soul" named "Jesus") died aka "ceased to be until the resurrection".

Yes, His divine nature continued on as before, but His new nature - humanity - died then rose again Sunday.

You guys always confuse the visible literal kingdom of Jesus with the invisible spiritual kingdom of Jesus and you deliberately do that to establish what the Bible doesn't teach.

The kingdom the thief was talking about was the literal, visible, glorious kingdom of Jesus.

Look, I'll make it simple:

1. Thief asked to be remembered when Jesus trades His priestly robes for kingly robes and returns for us.
2. Jesus assured him that day - while hanging on the Cross looking like anything but a Savior - He would.

Oh, you want the comma to go before "today" instead of after it? Well, you should know in the Septuagint, the word "sameron" ("today") precedes the verb that it modifies only 51 times BUT FOLLOWS THE VERB IT MODIFIES 170 TIMES - understand? So, the majority use of the word "today" has the comma coming after - not before.

To all who do agree that Jesus has always been ETERNAL in Holy Spirit, please read on:

Though Jesus himself was physically conceived of the Holy Spirit, to have mortal life among men, it wasn't until after His baptism, did the Holy Spirit of God the Father JOIN Him. Therefore, from that point on through Jesus' mortal body, the Father spoke the words and also performed all HIS good works through him.

Q #1. Since Jesus mortal body was not placed in the grave until AFTER His mortal death on the cross, how did the events below take place, in the very moment of His mortal death?
Mat. 27
[50] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, YIELDED UP the ghost [His Eternal "Quickening Spirit"].
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
[52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves AFTER HIS Resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Edit: came out of their graves AFTER His resurrection???
Does that mean after His bodily resurrection?
Well, actually no it doesn't, because verses 52-54 factually reveals that many of the saints came out of their graves upon Jesus' DEATH, while He was on the cross.

Q #2: So then, when DID Jesus actually rise from the death of His mortal body???
A #2: When He yielded UP the ghost, aka His "Quickening Spirit"!!
[54] Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, SAW the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Ans. to #1: The Holy Spirit of Jesus Himself is Eternal, but His mortal body was NOT, and therefore, it needed to be changed into Immortality, while it lay in the grave for three days (** see Note below).
Because Jesus was and is always Eternal in Holy Spirit, He Himself could NEVER die, even though His mortal body did die!!

While Jesus was in the state of Being, of His Eternal Holy Spirit, that is when He visited "the dead" from Noah's time and they of Israel, whom God purposely "remembered" (Malachi 3:16), of all who had died in faith/martydom, but were not yet resurrected into NEW Life. You can see that fulfillment in Rev. 6:9-11 of Malachi 3:16. All of such had still been waiting for the "Promise to come".

So then, the repentant thief on the cross said a very scriptural word, when he said: "Remember me, when you come into your kingdom".

Though I don't have time to post them, there are many, many scriptures that support my understanding.

**Note: what most Christians are not willing to entertain, is the simple fact that Jesus has full capacity to be BOTH
physically Immortal and/or Spirit AT WILL.

 

[Earburner]

Yes, but that's irrelevant because the prophecy is clear that the Stone striking the image marks the time when Christ sets up HIS KINGDOM - not sets up His church - and remember that over and over, the setting up of Christ's kingdom is at the end of time, not the beginning of the first A.D. millennium.

The church of "born again" Saints is the kingdom of God. We each are members of His body, being the extension of Himself, through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit.

In case you haven't thought this, we all who are waiting for Jesus to be "revealed from Heaven", in all His Glory, are the New Earth of God's creation and the place of His dwelling, with Jesus who is the New Heaven.
2 Cor. 4[7] But we have this treasure [God Himself] in [our] earthen vessels [bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[Phoneman777]

To all who do agree that Jesus has always been ETERNAL in Holy Spirit, please read on:

Though Jesus himself was physically conceived of the Holy Spirit, to have mortal life among men, it wasn't until after His baptism, did the Holy Spirit of God the Father JOIN Him. Therefore, from that point on through Jesus' mortal body, the Father spoke the words and also performed all HIS good works through him.

Q #1. Since Jesus mortal body was not placed in the grave until AFTER His mortal death on the cross, how did the events below take place, in the very moment of His mortal death?
Mat. 27
[50] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, YIELDED UP the ghost [His Eternal "Quickening Spirit"].
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
[52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves AFTER HIS Resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Q #2: When DID Jesus actually rise from the death of His mortal body???
A #2: When He yielded UP the ghost, aka His "Quickening Spirit"!!
[54] Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, SAW the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Ans. to #1: The Holy Spirit of Jesus Himself is Eternal, but His mortal body was NOT, and therefore, it needed to be changed into Immortality, while it lay in the grave for three days (** see Note below).
Because Jesus was and is always Eternal in Holy Spirit, He Himself could NEVER die, even though His mortal body did die!!

While Jesus was in the state of Being, of His Eternal Holy Spirit, that is when He visited "the dead" of Israel, whom God purposely "remembered" (Malachi 3:16), of all who had died in faith, but were not yet resurrected into NEW Life. You can see that fulfillment in Rev. 6:9-11 of Malachi 3:16.
So then, the repentant thief on the cross said a very scriptural word, when he said: "Remember me, when you come into your kingdom".

Though I don't have time to post them, there are many, many scriptures that support my understanding.

**Note: what most Christians are not willing to entertain, is the simple fact that Jesus has full capacity to be BOTH
physically Immortal and/or Spirit AT WILL.

Can you ever just stick to point and counterpoint instead of having every point you cast get lost in the weeds? I told you neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise that day and gave reasons which prove that about Jesus - can you limit the scope of your response to just that?

 

[Phoneman777]

The church of "born again" Saints is the kingdom of God.

Yes, the "invisible kingdom" which doesn't come by "observation". That's NOT to what the Stone of Daniel 2 refers.

In case you haven't thought this, we all who are waiting for Jesus to be "revealed from Heaven", in all His Glory, are the New Earth of God's creation and the place of His dwelling, with Jesus who is the New Heaven.
2 Cor. 4[7] But we have this treasure [God Himself] in [our] earthen vessels [bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

What in the world does all this have to do with proving the Stone of Daniel 2 striking the image is not referring to the birth of the church but the end of sin and sinners and the setting up of Christ's eternal, visible kingdom?

 

[Earburner]

Can you ever just stick to point and counterpoint instead of having every point you cast get lost in the weeds? I told you neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise that day and gave reasons which prove that about Jesus - can you limit the scope of your response to just that?

Unfortunately, most here are not understanding the crucial details of WHEN Jesus actually resurrected.

My point that you are missing is, though Jesus' MORTAL body DIED on the cross, He Himself DID NOT DIE, as that of the repentant thief!! Jesus resurrected WHEN "He yielded UP the ghost", which was the Eternal Spirit of Himself, being that of His Eternal "Quickening Spirit".

1 Cor. 15:42-57
[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Peter 3
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, BUT QUICKENED by the Spirit:
[19] By which [His Spirit] also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison [of death];
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Eph. 4
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED FIRST into the lower parts of the earth? [See 1 Peter 3:19]
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

That of 1 Peter 3 and Eph. 4 was fulfilled when "Jesus yielded UP the ghost", as shown in Rev. 6:9-11, being all of them, who were "Remembered by God", being those who died in faith, since the time of Noah, BUT HAD NOT YET received the Gift of Eternal Life. Malachi 3:16.
Rev. 6[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar [of the OC.] the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes [symbolic of the Holy Spirit] were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So then, did the repentant thief enter into paradise with Jesus, on the Day that "Jesus yielded up the ghost"? YES! As well as
many others who had died long ago, prior to that Day, who were Remembered by God!! (Malachi 3:16).
Many were SEEN having done so.
Mat. 27
[52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection [when "Jesus yielded up the ghost"], and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Please go back to my post #262 and digest all that I said.

 

[Earburner]

Yes, the "invisible kingdom" which doesn't come by "observation". That's NOT to what the Stone of Daniel 2 refers.

What in the world does all this have to do with proving the Stone of Daniel 2 striking the image is not referring to the birth of the church but the end of sin and sinners and the setting up of Christ's eternal, visible kingdom?

Dan. 2
[34] Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
[35] Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them [2 Thes. 1:7-9]: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth [2 Thes. 1:10]

In case you haven't thought this, we all, who are waiting for Jesus to be "revealed from Heaven", in all His Glory, ARE THE NEW Earth of God's NEW creation, of His "NEW creatures", being within ourselves, the very place of His dwelling, with Jesus who is the New Heaven.
2 Cor. 4[7] But we have this treasure [God Himself] in [our] earthen vessels [bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Eph. 4
[24] And that ye put on the NEW man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

 

[Phoneman777]

So then, did the repentant thief enter into paradise with Jesus, on the Day that "Jesus yielded up the ghost"? YES!

No, Jesus' soul was not left in "hades" which means it went to "hades" - not heaven. And, how stupid it is to suggest that a common thief entered heaven when Peter tells us that even "David is not yet ascended" - really?

And, please spare me Dispensationalist nonsense about "Oh, the OT folks were affected by death differently than NT folks..."

Wrong - we are all a "Soul" which is the whole comprised of the two parts: the "Body" and the "Breath of Life" and when the Breath returns to God and the Body to the Earth, the Soul ceases to be until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

Which means Eternal Torment is also nonsense - those who die the Second Death die a permanent death, and everlasting death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.

 

[Phoneman777]

Dan. 2
[34] Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
[35] Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them [2 Thes. 1:7-9]: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth [2 Thes. 1:10]

In case you haven't thought this, we all, who are waiting for Jesus to be "revealed from Heaven", in all His Glory, ARE THE NEW Earth of God's NEW creation, of His "NEW creatures", being within ourselves, the very place of His dwelling, with Jesus who is the New Heaven.
2 Cor. 4[7] But we have this treasure [God Himself] in [our] earthen vessels [bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Eph. 4
[24] And that ye put on the NEW man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

OK, you obviously don't know what this is about, so here you go:

Someone suggested that the Stone striking the Dan 2 image represents the birth of the NT church. I contend that it represents the Second Coming - and that the only way it could represent the birth of the church is if it struck the upper shin bones of the image - because if you lay the image on its side as a timeline with head as Babylon (circa 600 B.C.), the upper shins of the iron Roman legs would be about the time Jesus came and started His church.

Therefore, since the Stone strikes at the feet and toes, this can only refer to the end of time and the Second Coming.

What say you?

 

[Earburner]

OK, you obviously don't know what this is about, so here you go:

Someone suggested that the Stone striking the Dan 2 image represents the birth of the NT church. I contend that it represents the Second Coming - and that the only way it could represent the birth of the church is if it struck the upper shin bones of the image - because if you lay the image on its side as a timeline with head as Babylon (circa 600 B.C.), the upper shins of the iron Roman legs would be about the time Jesus came and started His church.

Therefore, since the Stone strikes at the feet and toes, this can only refer to the end of time and the Second Coming.

What say you?

I agree with you. I showed the same in post #267, being that of when and how Jesus would return, by the KJV using the word "when" two times in 1 Thes. 2:7 and 10, whereby two events take place simultaneously: Vengeance upon the unsaved, and redemption upon the saved.

 

[Earburner]

No, Jesus' soul was not left in "hades" which means it went to "hades" - not heaven. And, how stupid it is to suggest that a common thief entered heaven when Peter tells us that even "David is not yet ascended" - really?

You have not discerned the scriptures that I've shown, nor did you digest all that I have said. It's about Jesus being manifested by His Eternal "quickening Spirit" within the likeness of our mortal flesh, being that of the mortal body that God the Father prepared FOR HIM.
Heb. 10
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a [mortal] body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
1 Cor. 15
[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus] was made a quickening spirit.

And, please spare me Dispensationalist nonsense about "Oh, the OT folks were affected by death differently than NT folks..."

Wrong - we are all a "Soul" which is the whole comprised of the two parts: the "Body" and the "Breath of Life" and when the Breath returns to God and the Body to the Earth, the Soul ceases to be until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

Yes, I agree!! Man BECAME a living soul.
He didn't get or receive from God "a living soul", as if it was something eternal or special, apart from all other air breathing life forms.
Scripture does reveal that truth, whereby "the breath of life" is simply oxygenated air.

Gen.2​

[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen.6​

[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Gen.7​

[15] And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Lev. 17
[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Which means Eternal Torment is also nonsense - those who die the Second Death die a permanent death, and everlasting death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.

I agree!!

 

[Earburner]

No, Jesus' soul was not left in "hades" which means it went to "hades" - not heaven. And, how stupid it is to suggest that a common thief entered heaven when Peter tells us that even "David is not yet ascended" - really?

Addressing this separately, I understand truthfully that "hades" is the grave, the state of the dead, who remain dead "beneath" the surface of the earth, and is not the fictional view of an eternal dwelling place for the eternal burning of so called eternally living "souls".

Now, if you would go back to my post (edit: #261 262) you will find that I did fully and scripturally explain that Jesus was NOT a living soul (as you and I understand it), but rather He was born in the likeness of our flesh, being a "Quickening Spirit".

Understanding of course, that before Jesus was made to be flesh, He has always been eternally alive as Spirit with God the Father.

 

[Zao is life]

prophecy is to be "of no private interpretation" and we must ask the "holy men" of Scripture what the prophetic symbolism means -

Though I agree with a lot of what you say in your OP, the moment someone says something like the above, that's when you can be 100% sure that the above is exactly what he himself does when it comes to the way he himself interprets certain prophecies.

I long for the day people would simply argue their (own) interpretation using only scripture, and not making statements like the above, which are almost always the man in the mirror of the man making that sort of statement (as in this case).

Preterism and Partial Preterism are human logic based in lack of knowledge of biblical history and biblical concepts applied by the same human logic to something as complicated as the Olivet Discourse and the Revelation as well as other prophetic statements in the New Testament. They are a waste of time because human logic based on ignorance (mostly deliberate) is a waste of time.

Daniel 8:20-25
"The ram which you saw having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the shaggy goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king. And as for that being broken, and four stood up in its place; four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in its power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, .."

(in the latter time of the kings of the Greek kingdom after it was divided into four parts)

" ..when the transgressors have come to the full,

a king, fierce of face, and skilled at intrigues, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power. And he shall destroy marvelously, and shall prosper and work, and destroy the mighty and the holy people. And also through his understanding, he shall cause deceit to succeed in his hand. And he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many. He also shall stand up against the Ruler of rulers. But he shall be broken without a hand."

The above is telling us that the 4th kingdom already existed, and that it existed in the latter time of the kingdoms which succeeded the Greek kingdom of Alexander the Great - but not everything that was prophesied about how it would meet its end was fulfilled.

The 4th kingdom of Daniel's four 'beasts' already existed, and is a type of what is to come - a beast "that was, and is not, and will ascend out of the abyss and go to perdition" (Revelation 17:8 & 11).

The Roman Empire was not the empire that was, and is not, and will ascend out of the abyss and go to perdition at the time John received the Revelation - Rome was the empire that was in existence at the time John received the Revelation. This fact alone should tell us that the kingdom that the Revelation is talking about existed before the Roman Empire:

The legs of iron in Daniel's image represent the 4th kingdom of Daniel's prophecy, which was divided between Ptolemaic kings of Egypt (the kings of the south) and The Seleucid kings of the Seleucid Empire (the kings of the north), and the 4th kingdom is not the Roman Empire.

The final kingdom will be partly weak and partly strong, retaining some of the strength of the former Middle Eastern Empire - the kingdom that had existed but no longer existed when John received the Revelation (definitely not Rome), which John was told will ascend out of the bottomless out and go to perdition.

Besides this, the Revelation says absolutely nothing about the final king subduing three kings - because that already happened when Antiochs IV Epiphanes - the type of the coming Antichrist - subdued three legitimate heirs to the throne of the 4th kingdom - the Seleucid Empire which did not meet its end in the way that was prophesied. The 'descendant' of that empire is the beast that will ascend out of the bottomless pit.

If you are truly "a Protestant historicist" you would not identify the empire that existed when John received the Revelation as the one that will fulfill the prophecy, because your knowledge of biblical history would tell you that though almost everything prophesied regarding the 4th kingdom of Daniel was fulfilled by the time Antiochus IV met his end, it was not all fulfilled.

Christ will destroy it after it has ascended out of the abyss. It has nothing to do with Rome.

 

[Earburner]

Daniel 8:20-25
"The ram which you saw having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the shaggy goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king. And as for that being broken, and four stood up in its place; four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in its power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, .."

Though you say that "in the latter TIME of THEIR [plural] kingdom is the 4th beast kingdom, I am understanding that the Four Generals, who served under the "notable horn", that was between the eyes of the "he goat" (Grecian empire), was Alex the Great" who had died at a very young age.

The Four Grecian Generals were: Ptolemy, Cassander, Seleucas and Lysicimus. They rose to power from out of the 3rd Beast, soon after Alex the Great, of the 3rd beast, had died.

The 3rd beast is represented as the "he goat", aka the Grecian empire, of which was overtaken by the Roman Republic in 146 BC. That was the end of 3rd beast world ruling power, and the beginning stages of the 4th beast world ruling power, the Roman Empire.

Please see the two truthful interpretations by the angel Gabriel in Dan. 8

The 4th beast was indeed the Roman Republic at that time (146 BC), but it did not become the Roman Empire until 27 BC.

 

[Zao is life]

Though you say that "in the latter TIME of THEIR [plural] kingdom is the 4th beast kingdom, I am understanding that the Four Generals, who served under the "notable horn", that was between the eyes of the "he goat" (Grecian empire), was Alex the Great" who had died at a very young age.

The Four Grecian Generals were: Ptolemy, Cassander, Seleucas and Lysicimus. They rose to power from out of the 3rd Beast, soon after Alex the Great, of the 3rd beast, had died.

The 3rd beast is represented as the "he goat", aka the Grecian empire.

Please see the two truthful interpretations by the angel Gabriel in Dan. 8

The 4th beast was indeed the Roman Republic at that time (146 BC), but did not become the Roman Empire until 27 BC.

No. The 4th beast came out of the four you mention - historical fact. The one that the prophecy was talking about was Antiochus IV Epiphanes - historical fact which especially this generation of Christians alive since the 20th century in their own waywardness have decided to deny, just like you do.

Please see the truthful history taken from the history books here:

The Kingdoms of Daniel's Prophecies

This is how the book of Daniel identifies the kingdoms:- Daniel 7 symbolizes them as: (I) Lion: Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian kingdom. (II)...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[Earburner]

No. The 4th beast came out of the four you mention - historical fact. The one that the prophecy was talking about was Antiochus IV Epiphanes - historical fact which especially this generation of Christians alive since the 20th century in their own waywardness have decided to deny, just like you do.

Please see the truthful history taken from the history books here:

The Kingdoms of Daniel's Prophecies

This is how the book of Daniel identifies the kingdoms:- Daniel 7 symbolizes them as: (I) Lion: Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian kingdom. (II)...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

I agree to all of the historical events that you have shown in the reference you posted, however the 4th beast did NOT directly come out of the 3rd beast. The Romans overtook and acquired the Grecian 3rd beast in 146 BC., making it part of the 4th beast. Rev. 17:11 reveals all of that about the seven (7) heads.
[11] And the [fourth] beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
The eighth (8th) head (having ten horns) was the Roman Empire, but of now it is not, and yet is, being of the seven (7).

All of the four previous empires, ruled the world by the use of militaries (horns). However, the last stage of the ever evolving 4th beast (the 8th head), shall rule the world by Gold- Digital MONEY. It will be a Global Economic Empire, of which all the world has never known!
It's identification will be it's "calling card" to ALL people:
"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." Rev. 13:17.
We are to know that the 4th Beast, in it's prime, WAS the Roman Empire, but in it's LAST and final stage of it's evolving, it will become a Global Economic Empire.

As for the counting of the "heads" on the 4th beast (first beast in Rev.), we know of the "four heads" of the Hellenistic kingdoms, being the Four Generals, but who the other three (3) "heads" were before/prior to them, no one here seems to know or understand it.
They were:
Babylon-1 head of Gold
Medio/Persia-1 head of a Ram.
Greece- 1 head of a he-Goat
Hellenistic kingdoms- "4 heads", being the four Generals that succeeded Alex the Great, after his death.
All of which totals to seven (7) heads.

We must not forget that all four beasts were world ruling in their time of succession, in coming upon the earth, aka the abyss, to which satan was cast down to from out of heaven.

To be brief, Antiochus Epiphanes lV (the little horn) did rise up among the ten horns of the Roman Republic, BUT, being of the Grecian 3rd beast, he was NOT of the ten Roman horns. There is no other "little horn" to come in the future!

Without repeating the historical record, that you have shown, we must follow through with our focus on the "spiritual" for a better understanding. 1 Cor. 2
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Yes, we must disregard all Eschatology that denominational "church-ianity" has fabricated and foisted upon all the world, raising their false masterpiece, being that of a singular, one man band, miracle man.
There is no such description found in the KJV or the TR Greek text, being that of a singular, future "little horn", that "church-ianity" calls: "THE" Antichrist.

All should immediately recognize that the words "the son of perdition" is to be understood in the plural. The NT scriptures reveal that Judas Iscariot was not the only one, who is doomed to destruction. All of such are known as, "the natural man", "the man of lawlessness", "the son of perdition" [destruction], being THEY [plural] who are of "THAT [singular] spirit OF antichrist". Rom.8:9.

 

[Timtofly]

How in the world do you conclude that? By a stupid comma that was added by translators (ancient text had ZERO punctuation).

If you want to place a comma, put it where it goes instead of the wrong place that causes confusion:

"Verily, I say unto you today (comma, pause, wait, delay), shalt thou be with Me in paradise".

It is where it goes.

Jesus never said, OK, I will remember you in thousands of years.

The soul is redeemed once physical death happens. The Second Birth only Seals a soul, until the day of redemption, which is physical death. Since the thief was redeemed that day, his soul immediately entered God's permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. The soul is not waiting somewhere to be remembered after 3 thousand years. That your erroneous human reasoning.


The earth is not left desolate for a thousand years. Isaiah 65 says it is restored and humans will subdue the earth for that one thousand year, Day of the Lord, Sabbath.

The earth after the Flood was not left desolate for a thousand years. The baptism of fire will not leave the earth desolate for a thousand years either.

 

[Timtofly]

Ans. to #1: The Holy Spirit of Jesus Himself is Eternal, but His mortal body was NOT, and therefore, it needed to be changed into Immortality, while it lay in the grave for three days (** see Note below).
Because Jesus was and is always Eternal in Holy Spirit, He Himself could NEVER die, even though His mortal body did die!!

I don't need to say Jesus had a mortal body to understand that the resurrection was complete 3 days later.

The Resurrection of Lazarus, even though it happened physically only a few weeks prior to the Sunday they ascended, the restoration over death was not completed until they all ascended on Sunday morning to Paradise.

The reason why the thief could enter Paradise, 3 days before the OT who physically came out of their graves before the thief physically died, is because we are not told the thief on his cross had a permanent incorruptible physical body waiting beside hos coss like those who came out of their graves with permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

Lazarus came out with a different body from the one they buried him in 4 days earlier. The old body was destroyed by leprosy, because Jesus told us Lazarus had leprosy.

Jesus did not heal the leprosy of Lazarus, because Lazarus was not an example of leprosy healed, but an example of the resurrection to a permanent incorruptible physical body.

The thief when he physically died had that permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise just like Jesus said would happen.

 

[Timtofly]

No, Jesus' soul was not left in "hades" which means it went to "hades" - not heaven. And, how stupid it is to suggest that a common thief entered heaven when Peter tells us that even "David is not yet ascended" - really?

And, please spare me Dispensationalist nonsense about "Oh, the OT folks were affected by death differently than NT folks..."

Wrong - we are all a "Soul" which is the whole comprised of the two parts: the "Body" and the "Breath of Life" and when the Breath returns to God and the Body to the Earth, the Soul ceases to be until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

Which means Eternal Torment is also nonsense - those who die the Second Death die a permanent death, and everlasting death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.

That is not what Peter said...

"For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,"

When David wrote those words, he had not ascended. David was not in sheol, but in Abraham's bosom. What do you think was actually in Abraham's bosom? You seem to contradict yourself saying soul is in sheol, but cannot exist without a physical body? No physical body goes to sheol. Peter had said earlier that the body was dead and in a sepulchre. That body returns to dust and is never resurrected. That is a body of death, temporal, of corruption. God's body in Paradise is permanent and incorruptible.

Can any one say that the disciples even knew that Jesus ascended with the OT redeemed? Mary was the only one told that fact. And she was supposed to tell every one else. The disciples had fled, and even Peter denied Jesus and went back to fishing. Yes, Jesus met with them on Sunday into Monday, but no one was a witness to the direct ascension of the firstfruits out of Abraham's bosom.

Paul said that Jesus led captivity, captive. Ephesians 4. Jesus descended as a soul, and then ascended out of Abraham's bosom immediately. Those physical bodies came out of their graves immediately. What Jesus did the rest of the 3 days was wait. Jesus said he would be 3 days and 3 nights as one dead. When that time was accomplished the body left the tomb even before the stone was rolled away.

BTW: the rapture / Second Coming will happen just as fast, along with the baptism of fire. The change of the soul from one body to the next body, and even through space is instantaneous. Being glorified will be seen and understood by all those still standing on the earth, even after the baptism of fire. No one will be killed on the earth at the 6th Seal. Only those whose souls left their old body. The soul leaving the body is considered dead or killed by those on the earth. They will see the bodies of those taken away to meet the Lord in the air.

No one said hundreds or thousands of bodies were left dead hanging around Jerusalem or all over the earth. Those physical bodies that came out of those graves that day ascended to Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

I agree with you. I showed the same in post #267, being that of when and how Jesus would return, by the KJV using the word "when" two times in 1 Thes. 2:7 and 10, whereby two events take place simultaneously: Vengeance upon the unsaved, and redemption upon the saved.

That is not a definition of the stone striking the image. The stone cut out was the work on the Cross. Between the time the church began and filled the earth as a mountain was a gradual process over time. The church will not suddenly appear at the Second Coming. The church represents Jesus, the body of Christ on the earth, as the stone cut out.

The kingdom established was in heaven way before Jesus was born, because several times Jesus explained this kingdom of heaven as when the prophets in the OT were sent as representing this kingdom, and then even the Son was sent, meaning Jesus. So the kingdom was already established during Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece, and Rome, when Jesus was sent to the earth.

Jesus being the stone cut out. But the church grew until it destroyed the image at the Reformation, the end of the ten toes. Neither brought the kingdom to earth.

Now you have the thief saying, "Remember me." The point at what all understood as the kingdom on the earth, ie the last day resurrection, that many still get wrong. The thief physically died after the last day resurrection event. That was Matthew 27, when all came out of their graves. But they did not stay and bring the kingdom to earth yet. Nor will all those up until the Second Coming, bring the kingdom to earth. The earthly kingdom that many deny as the thousand years of Jesus reigning physically on the earth is still not the kingdom of heaven. That heavenly kingdom will not come down until the New Jerusalem descends.

Jesus did not answer the thief according to the popular opinion still around today. Jesus said the thief would enter that heavenly kingdom, called Paradise that day, not waiting at all for a future resurrection, period.

Daniel's image only gets us to the Reformation. The 6th kingdom has been in a state of death, and not part of the image at all. Jesus is the 7th Kingdom declared at the 7th Trumpet. But there is no resurrection at the 7th Trumpet. In fact 3 days later, Satan may be granted power, by God's authority, as the 8th kingdom, placing the 7th Kingdom on a 42 month hiatus, and then Jesus has to return with his subjects, as they do not suffer on the earth during those 42 months.

So which and when does Jesus enter a physical kingdom on earth, per the 7th Trumpet, that has not sounded yet. Jesus' kingdom is on the throne of David on the earth in earthly Jerusalem. None of the OT, nor the thief, nor the entire family of redeemed for the last 1994 years enter that earthly kingdom with Jesus as His kingdom on the earth. That kingdom is only for the firstfruits of the final harvest after the Second Coming.