The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

Daniel 12 is plainly after the Millennium.. Revelation 20:11-15 parallels it.

Daniel 12:1-2 happens at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the one-year day of the Lord.

 

[WPM]

Thank you. I have not seen this before.

The bridegroom comes for the bride at the pretribulation rapture. This is why there are 24 elders with crowns in Rev 4 and kings and priests before the throne in Revelation 5. This will likely happen at the Feast of New Wine or Tu B'av.

The second rapture occurs at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The Lord comes for the chosen bride. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal. They are there for the marriage supper. This rapture likely happens at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. They will sing the song of Moses as the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes tell us what the harvest is.


Amen. However the marriage supper happens in heaven.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
or in 1 Thess 4. Read it and you will see. The double vision that Pretrib suffers from is exposed by numerous Scripture.

The bridegroom comes for the bride at the one and only future coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the marriage union. This is the only one. This is the consummation. This is the end.

There are several recaps in Revelation. They all describe one final future coming of Christ. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach 2 future comings. That is a Pretrib invention. You are no Pretribber so far has been able to prove your teaching.

 

[Keraz]

The only was we can escape all these things that come to pass and stand before the Son of man is to be raptured before the great tribulation.

You display a serious lack of Bible knowledge. Many verses tell how the Lord will protect His own during the tough times ahead. Isaiah 43:2

No. There are those that will escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass.

There is no scripture to support your wild assertion; that the Lord will remove His people to heaven.

You are using a bad translation. I would recommend the King James Version.

The KJV has error and bias in practically every verse, to use it is to handicap yourself.

 

[WPM]

Daniel 12:1-2 happens at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the one-year day of the Lord.

Where exactly in Daniel 12:1-2 or in the 6th and 7th seal detail in Revelation does it teach a "one-year day of the Lord"? This looks like another invention of yours that you will never be able to prove biblically. You seem to make it up as you go. With this form of ad-hoc hermeneutics you could make the Bible say whatever you want, and you do.

 

[Keraz]

Daniel 12:1-2 happens at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the one-year day of the Lord.

Your faulty opinion.
Daniel 12:4 actually says that those Prophetic Words are for the time of the end.
Daniel 12:1-3, describes the same time as Revelation 21:1-7

 

[WPM]

The only was we can escape all these things that come to pass and stand before the Son of man is to be raptured before the great tribulation.

That sums up your argument. It doesn't matter that the actual Scripture text forbids what you claim, you just make Pretrib statements up like this and think that that makes it a fact. Well, not so. Quite the opposite. Your statements run contrary to Scripture. That is why they should be roundly rejected.

 

[The Light]

Well, all except those who were already resurrected at the 6th seal, anyway.

How many resurrection events do you believe there will be?

The dead in Christ rise first before the great tribulation. The second harvest is at the 6th seal per Daniel 12. Then there is a rising from the dead at the end of wrath...........but they are not raptured to heaven.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming..... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

According to scripture, Christians will be resurrected when Christ returns at the last trumpet on the last day.

According to scripture......every man in his order..........Christ the first fruits and afterward, they that are Christs at His coming.

1 Thes 4 The Lord Himself comes for the Church before the seals are opened as we can see in Rev 4 and 5. The dead in Christ rise first. When the Lord returns at the trump of God for the alive that remained, He will bring the dead in Christ with Him.

Then when the Lord comes at the 6th seal for the second harvest, the dead and alive are changed at the Last Trump. There is a second harvest because God will keep His promise to the Jews. The blindness will be removed from part of Israel when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Evert man in his order...........first fruits...........then they that are Christs at His coming. After Christ comes for His Church, it begins again. 144,000 first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming at the 6th seal.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where exactly in Daniel 12:1-2 or in the 6th and 7th seal detail in Revelation does it teach a "one-year day of the Lord"? This looks like another invention of yours that you will never be able to prove biblically. You seem to make it up as you go. With this form of ad-hoc hermeneutics you could make the Bible say whatever you want, and you do.

Apparently, he thinks that the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3) that will be by way of fire upon the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12) when the day of the Lord arrives will last an entire year. Did it take an entire year for the Lord to burn up Sodom and Gomorrah? No, I think it happened pretty much instantly. So, this year long day of the Lord nonsense is clearly not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You display a serious lack of Bible knowledge. Many verses tell how the Lord will protect His own during the tough times ahead. Isaiah 43:2

There is no scripture to support your wild assertion; that the Lord will remove His people to heaven.

Agree.

The KJV has error and bias in practically every verse, to use it is to handicap yourself.

This is a wild exaggeration. You're always so dramatic and extreme. Anyway, I can easily disprove pre-trib using any English translation, including the KJV. So, let's just do that instead of wasting time arguing about English translations.

I have to give you kudos though for being the first post-trib premil to join this debate against pretrib. It's interesting how other post-trib premils haven't joined this discussion. I guess they don't want to be seen agreeing with Amils about anything. LOL. But, it's a chance for us post-tribs to agree on something instead of arguing about the meaning of Revelation 20 all the time.

 

[The Light]

Your faulty opinion.
Daniel 12:4 actually says that those Prophetic Words are for the time of the end.

Exactly. When many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:1-3, describes the same time as Revelation 21:1-7

Nope. Sorry. Daniel 12:1 is the time of the great tribulation.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

According to the signs of the sun, moon and stars the great tribulation is over before the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

 

[The Light]

The bridegroom comes for the bride at the one and only future coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the marriage union. This is the only one. This is the consummation. This is the end.

There are several recaps in Revelation. They all describe one final future coming of Christ. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach 2 future comings. That is a Pretrib invention. You are no Pretribber so far has been able to prove your teaching.

These are your words and not the Words of the scripture.

 

[The Light]

That sums up your argument. It doesn't matter that the actual Scripture text forbids what you claim, you just make Pretrib statements up like this and think that that makes it a fact. Well, not so. Quite the opposite. Your statements run contrary to Scripture. That is why they should be roundly rejected.

Right. I prove you wrong over and over and over and then you deny, deny, deny.

 

[The Light]

Where exactly in Daniel 12:1-2 or in the 6th and 7th seal detail in Revelation does it teach a "one-year day of the Lord"? This looks like another invention of yours that you will never be able to prove biblically. You seem to make it up as you go. With this form of ad-hoc hermeneutics you could make the Bible say whatever you want, and you do.

Study to show yourself approved and quit listening to those teachers on Sunday and Wednesday night.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Isaiah 34 is talking about the 6th seal.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

 

[The Light]

Apparently, he thinks that the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3) that will be by way of fire upon the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12) when the day of the Lord arrives will last an entire year. Did it take an entire year for the Lord to burn up Sodom and Gomorrah? No, I think it happened pretty much instantly. So, this year long day of the Lord nonsense is clearly not taught anywhere in scripture.

Study to show yourself approved and quit listening to those teachers on Sunday and Wednesday night.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Isaiah 34 is talking about the 6th seal.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Sudden destruction during the Day of the Lord will occur when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven.

 

[WPM]

The dead in Christ rise first before the great tribulation. The second harvest is at the 6th seal per Daniel 12. Then there is a rising from the dead at the end of wrath...........but they are not raptured to heaven.

According to scripture......every man in his order..........Christ the first fruits and afterward, they that are Christs at His coming.

1 Thes 4 The Lord Himself comes for the Church before the seals are opened as we can see in Rev 4 and 5. The dead in Christ rise first. When the Lord returns at the trump of God for the alive that remained, He will bring the dead in Christ with Him.

You can keep making these statements but you are totally unable to actually prove it in the text. Where is "the great tribulation" mentioned after the rapture here?

These are your words and not the Words of the scripture.

This is called exegesis, something you do not seem to know anything about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Study to show yourself approved and quit listening to those teachers on Sunday and Wednesday night.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Isaiah 34 is talking about the 6th seal.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Sudden destruction during the Day of the Lord will occur when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven.

I am teaching you, but you stubbornly refuse to learn. You will even resort to saying that the many days of Abraham's sojourn referenced in Genesis 21:34 is referencing the days of his life instead of the days he sojourned in Philistines' land. LOL! I've never seen a more blatant twisting of scripture in my entire life! LOL! All because of your desire to hold on to your false interpretation of Daniel 12:2. Sad! Pathetic! And you expect to be taken seriously when you manipulate God's holy word like that?

What do you think you're proving here by referencing Isaiah 34? It references both "the day" and "the year" here in relation to the exact same thing. Clearly, it's not meant to be taken literally as lasting for one year. That's utter nonsense. It's referring figuratively to the time when the Lord's vengeance will come down.

That "sudden destruction" (1 Thess 5:2-3) of the day of the Lord is described here in detail:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, if you're going to claim that the "sudden destruction" that will occur on the day of the Lord will last for one year then you are saying it will somehow, inexplicably take the Lord a whole year to burn up the heavens and the earth. I hardly think it would take Him nearly that long. I don't think it will take Him longer than a second. How long do you suppose it took Him to burn up Sodom and Gomorrah?

By the way, regardless of whether the "sudden destruction" lasts for one day or one year, do you agree with Peter that it will result in the "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is called exegesis, something you do not seem to know anything about.

Let's not sugarcoat it. There's no "seem" about it. He clearly knows nothing about it. At all. Also, he has proven to be willing to deceptively manipulate scripture to make it say what he wants it to say. It's hard for me to believe that any Christian would have no conscience about doing that, but I have seen several people on this forum blatantly manipulate and change scripture to fit their doctrine. It's sad to see.

 

[Douggg]

The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).

The reason Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 38 is near at hand is because when a person breaks down the verses in Ezekiel 39, also about the Gog/Magog event, the 7 years that follow (Ezekiel 39:9) end with the Armageddon event in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Simply compare that text, verses 17-20, with Revelation 19:17-18.

And verses 21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text, having returned to this earth, His Second Coming.

There is 0% chance of Amil being correct. I am not being harsh or name calling. Just go read through Ezekiel 39.

 

[honeycomb]

Hello…. Here’s my understanding concerning The “Day of the Lord.” It is a time yet future. It begins on the first day of the millennium, which is the the Day Jesus returns at the 7th trump. This is when, in the twinkling of an eye, we will be changed into our spiritual bodies:

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

1 Corinthians 15:51-54

The Day of the Lord is one long day; it lasts 1,000 years.


PEtRA

 

[Douggg]

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.