The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

I denied the deity of Christ. I did not deny that Jesus is God.

The Bible teaches that Yahweh God is eternal and created all things.
The Bible teaches that Jesus is the exact representation of God. "He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature . . ." (Hebrews 1:3) John says that Jesus is the exegesis of God in human form. (John 1:18) Jesus says of himself to Philipp, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)

Jesus is not a deity; He is man. (Hebrews 2:5-9)
A deity is eternal and cannot die. But Jesus died for our sins and therefore he is not deity.

The idea that Jesus is both human and deity is a false teaching that came from the Catholic Church in the 300's.

Thank you for confirming once again that you do not believe Jesus is God and that you are a heretic who does not accept what is taught in the Word of God.

Why accuse me of lying when I say you don't believe Jesus is God when you say "Jesus is not a deity; He is man"? That's ridiculous. He is both God and man at the same time. You are deceived.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your fellow Amil WPM wrote, ...

"LOL. Talk about butchering Scripture! Pretrib is becoming more farcical by the moment. The reality is, you see what we see: there is one final future coming of the lord that is absolutely climatic. No one survives it!"

Doug, do you make any effort at all to understand what Amils believe? How can you say our doctrine isn't true when you don't even know what we believe? He, of course, is talking about unbelievers. None of them survive Christ's second coming just as none survived the flood in Noah's day (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-30, 2 Peter 3:6-7). Believers will be caught up to meet Christ in the air just before that. How can you not know we believe this by now?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You do realize that people are watching on and can judge for themselves who is avoiding the Scriptures, arguments and posts?

Right. It's quite obvious which side of the debate just believes what they want to believe and which side bases their beliefs on scripture.

 

[MA2444]

Thanks for the laugh. Your master's must be proud that you are unable to answer anything, but you listened to their instruction deny, deny, deny.

I'm fairly certain that, that's what Epesians is taking about.

Ephesians 6:12-13
12 For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

13 Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm..../NLT

Actually I'm beginning to understand how very predictable they are. Admit Nothing! Deny Everything! And Project Project Project! Just to be able to try and bring doubt to God's Word in people of Faith. So it isnt really them that we're talking to when they act like that. It's the evil spirits that they are oppressed by (or possessed by?) Just like it says in Ephesians. That is...if Ephesians is true, LOL! (Note for SI: That was a big joke haha in case you didnt get it)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh so in other words you were wrong. It seemed to make a GREAT deal of difference when you were claiming that great was the proper translation.

And great isn't all.

LOL. You are trying to be a clown. Great is neither all, nor not all. The fact of the matter is that the word does not mean "many, but not all" but you are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that. I gave you examples where the word was translated as "many" of something and it referred to all of those things the number of which were "many". And here you are still denying that the word can be used that way. You are as stubborn as they come. You refuse to acknowledge obvious things because you will believe whatever you want to believe. Jesus said ALL the dead will be resurrected at the same hour and you don't want to accept that because it doesn't fit your false doctrine.

And yet you were able to claim that it was used more times than many. I'll give you a hint. It's not even close. How is it that every time you guy claim something it can be proven as FALSE.

Oh, you counted it, did you? Regardless, when it's translated as "great" it doesn't even relate to what we're talking about, which is when it's translated as "many". You're just trying to distract from the fact that you are stubborn and won't admit the obvious, which is that the word does not imply "not all". It can mean "many, but not all" or it can be used to described all of something, the number of which is "many".

I know the difference between many and all. If you don't try school.

I know the difference between honesty and dishonesty and you are being dishonest about this.

Let me just illustrate this simply to show how foolish you are being here by making a simple statement.

I have many coins.

When I say that, am I referring to many, but not all of my coins? No, I'm referring to all of them, the number of which is many.

Let's put your ridiculous man-made rule to the ultimate test here....

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Was Jesus saying here that many, but not all are called? He said this in relation to the gospel call. Are not all people called to salvation? Of course they are. So, the word "many" here refers to all people who are called, the number of which is "many".

It is a simple statement. Your people are many. Not so hard to understand.

And?

Exodus 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.

Is this referring only to many, but not all of the Israelite slaves or is it referring to all of them, the number of which were "many"? Are you afraid to answer this question?

Mm. Did he sojourn many days in that land or did he sojourn all his days in that land.

Are you purposely taking the verse out of context? NO ONE in the world would interpret that verse the way you're doing. The "many days" OBVIOUSLY refers to the number of days Abraham sojourned and not the number of days of his life. Is there no scripture that you won't twist to make it fit your doctrine? It appears not. You should change your username to "The Dark" to reflect your dishonest handling of scripture.

 

[MA2444]

LOL. You are trying to be a clown. Great is neither all, nor not all. The fact of the matter is that the word does not mean "many, but not all" but you are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that. I gave you examples where the word was translated as "many" of something and it referred to all of those things the number of which were "many". And here you are still denying that the word can be used that way. You are as stubborn as they come. You refuse to acknowledge obvious things because you will believe whatever you want to believe. Jesus said ALL the dead will be resurrected at the same hour and you don't want to accept that because it doesn't fit your false doctrine.


Oh, you counted it, did you? Regardless, when it's translated as "great" it doesn't even relate to what we're talking about, which is when it's translated as "many". You're just trying to distract from the fact that you are stubborn and won't admit the obvious, which is that the word does not imply "not all". It can mean "many, but not all" or it can be used to described all of something, the number of which is "many".


I know the difference between honesty and dishonesty and you are being dishonest about this.

Let me just illustrate this simply to show how foolish you are being here by making a simple statement.

I have many coins.

When I say that, am I referring to many, but not all of my coins? No, I'm referring to all of them, the number of which is many.

Let's put your ridiculous man-made rule to the ultimate test here....

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Was Jesus saying here that many, but not all are called? He said this in relation to the gospel call. Are not all people called to salvation? Of course they are. So, the word "many" here refers to all people who are called, the number of which is "many".



And?

Exodus 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.

Is this referring only to many, but not all of the Israelite slaves or is it referring to all of them, the number of which were "many"? Are you afraid to answer this question?


Are you purposely taking the verse out of context? NO ONE in the world would interpret that verse the way you're doing. The "many days" OBVIOUSLY refers to the number of days Abraham sojourned and not the number of days of his life. Is there no scripture that you won't twist to make it fit your doctrine? It appears not. You should change your username to "The Dark" to reflect your dishonest handling of scripture.

My, what big Word Salads you have... Lol.

Can you expound on what you just wrote in 2000 words or less?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If Gog/Magog happens and immediately after it a Jewish messiah confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant - will Amil then admit that Amils are wrong ?

Yes, of course. I accept what scripture teaches no matter what it is, unlike some people here. But, I know that won't happen because there is so much scripture which contradicts that belief. But, you apparently don't care if your interpretation of one passage contradicts other passages.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thank you for confirming once again that you do not believe Jesus is God and that you are a heretic who does not accept what is taught in the Word of God.

Why do you lie about me?

Why accuse me of lying when I say you don't believe Jesus is God when you say "Jesus is not a deity; He is man"? That's ridiculous. He is both God and man at the same time.

The Bible doesn't teach this. You got this from a Catholic Council.

You are deceived.

I wasn't the one who trusted a council who affirmed false teaching.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is your argument here?

He has none, of course. Just realize that you are dealing with someone who is very dishonest with scripture. Let me give you an example:

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God. 34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many days.

I used verse 34 to show him that "many" does not have to mean "many, but not all" in relation to the discussion about "many" being resurrected per Daniel 12:2.

Genesis 21:34 is obviously talking about all of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land rather than many, but not all of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land. Even poster "The Light" can see that. But, what does he do to get around this? He says it's referring to the days of Abraham's life, so it's referring to many, but not all of the days of his life. LOL! Can you believe that? He blatantly and dishonestly changes the obvious context of the verse to make it fit his doctrine because of his stubborn refusal to admit the obvious, which is that the Hebrew word "rab" does not have to mean "many, but not all". The dishonesty from some of these people is just unbelievable.

 

[The Light]

Ok, we are getting places.

So, when Jesus comes then every single human being is going to be raised from the grave with the sound of His voice? This represents a general resurrection.

Yes everyone that is in the grave will be raised from the grave. Before that occurs, Daniel 12:1-2 say that MANY of them that sleep in the dust shall be raised.

So yes, after MANY of them that sleep in dust shall be raised at the conclusion of the great tribulation then ALL of them that are still in the ground will be raised after the wrath of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you lie about me?

The Bible doesn't teach this. You got this from a Catholic Council.

I wasn't the one who trusted a council who affirmed false teaching.

Total nonsense. I don't lie about you. You said Jesus is not deity, He is man. I'm saying that is false and a heretical teaching. Scripture says that Jesus created all things and that can only be said about God. God said His name is "I am" and Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am". You are denying the obvious, here, you are a heretic and you don't like being called out for it. Too bad.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Will they admit they are wrong? You had me rolling. You could prove them wrong a dozen times a day by the word of God and they would deny, deny, deny, and then accuse you of not answering them.

That's why there are 5 foolish.

LOL!!! When do you plan on doing ANYTHING to show how we are supposedly wrong? You do NOTHING to show that. You are apparently incapable of exegeting scripture to show how and why it teaches what you claim it does. You can't be expected to be taken seriously without exegeting any scripture. Your endless words mean nothing without that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What a liar you are. And judging by your response, of course you did not even read or exegete Hebrews 1:1-4 or else you couldn't have said what you did.

So how about you you exegete those verses in Hebrews for us.

Oh, do we have another heretic on our hands here? Do you also deny the deity of Jesus Christ? Let's expose all the heretics here while we're at it. Anyone else here deny the deity of Jesus Christ, the Great God and Savior of the world?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Premillennialists have little difficulty accepting the spiritual reality that the wicked today are bound by spiritual chains of sin and are imprisoned by their own lusts in Satan’s prison and yet are able to freely operate physically on this earth. One wonders why they should then struggle with the concept of the spiritual binding of spiritual beings. Why would they dismiss the fact that the kingdom of darkness has been placed in such chains since the first advent?

It is wrong to believe that Revelation 20 is a literal depiction describing the devil being physically chained, tossed into a physical abyss, and physically sealed so that he cannot deceive the nations anymore and yet still walk about this earth seeking whom he may devour. Amils don’t accept that this is physical language neither do they believe that spirits are physically chained and that they can be restrained by a literal prison. They believe that they are spiritually chained in a spiritual prison.

So, were the unsaved Gentiles literal "prisoners" walking about in this world in literal physical "chains" confined to a literal physical "prison" before the cross?

Absolutely. But we are talking to brick walls here. No willingness to consider anything but their pet doctrine. Which is why they so often misrepresent what we believe. Nothing but closed-mindedness from that side of the debate. They make very little effort to even understand it. So, they refute something they barely even understand, which makes no sense. It's like someone telling a researcher that his findings in his research are all false without knowing much at all about what he was researching or what his findings actually are.

 

[WPM]

No, The New Testament identifies Yahweh as the creator, and it identifies Jesus as a man who is the image of Yahweh.

Yahweh created everything alone. Jesus is a man who is the image of Yahweh.


In the beginning was the word. Jesus was born to the virgin Mary. A man is not a word.

Why do you dodge around all the Scripture that exposes your heresy?

 

[WPM]

Typical of my posts is disproving the words you say with scripture. How is it that you are unable to show your rapture in the book of Revelation?

Not true. More avoidance. That is all you have now.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you dodge around all the Scripture that exposes your heresy?

Because he has to. He has no way around it, but he sure tries. But, it's important for everyone to know where this heretic is coming from. Surely, if some Jehovah's Witness or Mormon was here trying to tell us the meaning of scripture, we could immediately dismiss anything they say just based on the fact that they miss the obvious truth of the deity of Jesus Christ. If someone can't get that right, I question whether they can get anything right.

 

[WPM]

it isnt really them that we're talking to when they act like that. It's the evil spirits that they are oppressed by (or possessed by?) Just like it says in Ephesians. That is...if Ephesians is true, LOL!​

The venom and hatred you (and fellow Pretribbers) pour out when your doctrine is challenged and you have no response is breath-taking.

All we have now is that, projection and avoidance!

You are doing more to reinforce the Op than I can do.

 

[WPM]

Yes everyone that is in the grave will be raised from the grave. Before that occurs, Daniel 12:1-2 say that MANY of them that sleep in the dust shall be raised.

So yes, after MANY of them that sleep in dust shall be raised at the conclusion of the great tribulation then ALL of them that are still in the ground will be raised after the wrath of God.

If everyone is resurrected in a general resurrection at your 3rd coming then there must be a general judgment then? Correct?

Jesus shows a general resurrection/judgment when He comes in Matthew 12:41-42, “The men of Nineveh shall rise [Gr. anistemi Strong’s 450] in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up [Gr. egeiro Strong’s 1453] in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ.

This is further impressed in the parallel portion in Luke 11:31, only with an additional example, saying, “The queen of the south shall rise up [Gr. egeiro Strong’s 1453] in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall rise up [Gr. anistemi Strong’s 450] in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.”

Here, the two main words used throughout the New Testament for resurrection are applied to the general resurrection that occurs on Judgment Day when the Old Testament time saints and wicked join the New Testament saints and wicked at the judgment. Remember the queen of the south and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day. There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.” The Greek word meta (3326) is described in Strong’s concordance as “a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; ‘amid’.”

 

[Douggg]

Yes, of course. I accept what scripture teaches no matter what it is, unlike some people here. But, I know that won't happen because there is so much scripture which contradicts that belief. But, you apparently don't care if your interpretation of one passage contradicts other passages.

Okay, I see that as a positive.

imo, the Gog/Magog event is close at hand. I am watching the Ukraine/Russia war. If Russia disengages and starts bringing it's troops back to Russia, that could be a big signal that Gog/Magog is imminent, because of what is said in Ezekiel 38:4.

From that verse it appears Gog is heading in one direction, but gets dragged into the conflict brewing in the middle east against Israel.

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

According to the parable of the fig tree generation. Gog/Magog should happen before the end of 2030. (1967 +70 years =2037. 2037-7 years = 2030 )