The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

Okay, I see that as a positive.

imo, the Gog/Magog event is close at hand. I am watching the Ukraine/Russia war. If Russia disengages and starts bringing it troops back to Russia, that could be a big signal that Gog/Magog is imminent, because of what is said in Ezekiel 38:4.

From that verse it appears Gog is heading in one direction, but gets dragged into the conflict brewing in the middle east against Israel.

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

According to the parable of the fig tree generation. Gog/Magog should happen before the end of 2030. (1967 +70 years =2037. 2037-7 years = 2030 )

Gog/Magog has nothing to do with Russia. That is another Pretrib lie.

 

[covenantee]

Okay, I see that as a positive.

imo, the Gog/Magog event is close at hand. I am watching the Ukraine/Russia war. If Russia disengages and starts bringing it's troops back to Russia, that could be a big signal that Gog/Magog is imminent, because of what is said in Ezekiel 38:4.

From that verse it appears Gog is heading in one direction, but gets dragged into the conflict brewing in the middle east against Israel.

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

According to the parable of the fig tree generation. Gog/Magog should happen before the end of 2030. (1967 +70 years =2037. 2037-7 years = 2030 )

Hooks, horses, horsemen, bucklers, shields, swords.

Where in Ukraine and/or Russia and/or Israel are those?

 

[WPM]

Okay, I see that as a positive.

imo, the Gog/Magog event is close at hand. I am watching the Ukraine/Russia war. If Russia disengages and starts bringing it's troops back to Russia, that could be a big signal that Gog/Magog is imminent, because of what is said in Ezekiel 38:4.

From that verse it appears Gog is heading in one direction, but gets dragged into the conflict brewing in the middle east against Israel.

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

According to the parable of the fig tree generation. Gog/Magog should happen before the end of 2030. (1967 +70 years =2037. 2037-7 years = 2030 )

The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).

 

[WPM]

Hooks, horses, horsemen, bucklers, shields, swords.

Where in Ukraine and/or Russia and/or Israel are those?

You beat me to it! Lol

 

[The Light]

LOL. You are trying to be a clown. Great is neither all, nor not all. The fact of the matter is that the word does not mean "many, but not all" but you are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that. I gave you examples where the word was translated as "many" of something and it referred to all of those things the number of which were "many". And here you are still denying that the word can be used that way. You are as stubborn as they come. You refuse to acknowledge obvious things because you will believe whatever you want to believe. Jesus said ALL the dead will be resurrected at the same hour and you don't want to accept that because it doesn't fit your false doctrine.

I believe that those that translated the scripture know far more about it than any of us. Many means many. It's simple.

I know the difference between honesty and dishonesty and you are being dishonest about this.

Do you mean like when you said GREAT was translated more than Many. Then when you were called out you claimed that you couldn't possibly count them all. And yet it's likely you understand where to find out the number times the word rab was translated.

Or are you referring to the time your buddy changed the Greek word that the scripture used and instead rebuking him for his dishonesty, you made excuses. Is that what you mean when you talk about honesty and dishonesty?

Let me just illustrate this simply to show how foolish you are being here by making a simple statement.

I have many coins.

When I say that, am I referring to many, but not all of my coins? No, I'm referring to all of them, the number of which is many.

Great now say.................and MANY of them that are in my pocket will come out today. Do all of them come out of your pocket today?

Let's put your ridiculous man-made rule to the ultimate test here....

Great. Common sense is outstanding.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Was Jesus saying here that many, but not all are called? He said this in relation to the gospel call. Are not all people called to salvation? Of course they are. So, the word "many" here refers to all people who are called, the number of which is "many".

Are all called if we are predestined before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Matthew 22
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The Jews were called. They did not want to come.

Then the Gentiles were called. Some came, some did not.

Is this all of mankind? From the foundation of the world?

Exodus 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.

Is this referring only to many, but not all of the Israelite slaves or is it referring to all of them, the number of which were "many"? Are you afraid to answer this question?

I answered. It's a statement. Clear enough. The tree has many apples. Will there be more apples tomorrow or is that all the apples? Many of the apples are rotted. Is that all the apples or many of them?

Are you purposely taking the verse out of context? NO ONE in the world would interpret that verse the way you're doing. The "many days" OBVIOUSLY refers to the number of days Abraham sojourned and not the number of days of his life. Is there no scripture that you won't twist to make it fit your doctrine? It appears not. You should change your username to "The Dark" to reflect your dishonest handling of scripture.

Please. You should know the difference between many and all. This is no great mystery.

If you were correct, then why did you put up such a fight that MANY was properly translated as GREAT. We saw how that twisting worked out.

 

[The Light]

LOL!!! When do you plan on doing ANYTHING to show how we are supposedly wrong? You do NOTHING to show that. You are apparently incapable of exegeting scripture to show how and why it teaches what you claim it does. You can't be expected to be taken seriously without exegeting any scripture. Your endless words mean nothing without that.

You sure ask a lot of questions and don't have any answers.

 

[The Light]

Not true. More avoidance. That is all you have now.

LOL. Deny, deny, deny. Do I need to copy and paste like you do?

Where is your rapture in the book of Revelation. It is you that are avoiding answering.

 

[WPM]

LOL. Deny, deny, deny. Do I need to copy and paste like you do?

Where is your rapture in the book of Revelation. It is you that are avoiding answering.

Bring one Scripture to the table that supports Pretrib and quote it in full and let us dissect it. It is time to put up or shut up. What are you scared of?

 

[The Light]

If everyone is resurrected in a general resurrection at your 3rd coming then there must be a general judgment then? Correct?

Honestly I have no clue what you consider a "GENERAL RESURRECTION". Is this when generals are resurrected?

There is a resurrection at the 6th seal which is immediately after the tribulation. Many that sleep in the ground will be raised.

Then there is a resurrection at the end of God wrath when ALL who have done good and evil are raised.

So when are the Christians raised?

 

[The Light]

Bring one Scripture to the table that supports Pretrib and quote it in full and let us dissect it. It is time to put up or shut up. What are you scared of?

Here, dissect away.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The only thing I'm scared of is not getting anything productive done because I'm wasting my time proving things you can't see.

 

[WPM]

LOL. Deny, deny, deny. Do I need to copy and paste like you do?

Where is your rapture in the book of Revelation. It is you that are avoiding answering.

I have replied and you have not answered. That is the way you operate. Revelation 19:7-10 tells us, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

His “wife” is said to have “made herself ready.”

Ready, “for the marriage of the Lamb.” Whilst we (the Church) have been betrothed to Christ in salvation, the marriage will not be finally consummated until the bridegroom comes.

The marriage union is the glorification feat where we are eternally changed in order to enjoy God forever – this is the final act of redemption. This is the marriage of the Lamb. In short, a prepared bride is made ready to unite with a prepared bridegroom. For this climactic event she is arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. This is her worthiness for marriage.

 

[WPM]

Honestly I have no clue what you consider a "GENERAL RESURRECTION". Is this when generals are resurrected?

There is a resurrection at the 6th seal which is immediately after the tribulation. Many that sleep in the ground will be raised.

Then there is a resurrection at the end of God wrath when ALL who have done good and evil are raised.

So when are the Christians raised?

Most Bible students are very familiar what a general resurrection is. Do I need to spell it out for you? Or, are you just being your usual obtuse self? The righteous and the wicked are resurrected in response to his voice in John 5:28-29.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay, I see that as a positive.

You see it as a positive that I would accept the fulfillment of prophecy no matter how it was fulfilled? What do you think of me, Doug? You obviously don't know me at all. As Paul said "let God be true, but every man a liar". I accept the truth of all scripture regardless of what it means because God never lies. If I find out I'm wrong about something, I will gladly accept it because I fully trust in God's word. That's how I became Amil in the first place.

I was not looking to change my Premil view, but I found that I could not deny the MANY scriptures that support Amil as we have shared on this forum. And the way Amil is able to exegete scripture and put all the puzzles pieces together to reconcile ALL scripture together so tightly is what convinced me. It's quite clear which side of this debate actually exegetes scripture and shows clearly and why we believe what we do. The other side just wants to make claims while not proving it at all with scripture and wants to trade insults all day.

imo, the Gog/Magog event is close at hand. I am watching the Ukraine/Russia war. If Russia disengages and starts bringing it's troops back to Russia, that could be a big signal that Gog/Magog is imminent, because of what is said in Ezekiel 38:4.

From that verse it appears Gog is heading in one direction, but gets dragged into the conflict brewing in the middle east against Israel.

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

It should be clear that it's all figurative language unless you think people will literally start fighting while riding horses while "handling swords" and bucklers and shields. If you want to think that relates to end times, then why would you not relate it to this:

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

According to the parable of the fig tree generation. Gog/Magog should happen before the end of 2030. (1967 +70 years =2037. 2037-7 years = 2030 )

Say what now? I can't take this seriously. The parable of the fig tree related directly to the signs Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse that would indicate His second coming was near.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

He said nothing about Gog/Magog in the Olivet Discourse, so how could He have been talking about that? All these things that would be signs that His second coming would be near included the false Christs and false prophets and deception that would be such that even the elect could be deceived, if possible. The same kind of thing Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2:1-12. Those are the signs of His second coming, not some supposed future Gog/Magog war. This is yet another example of how you interpret one passage in such a way that contradicts other passages. And you take so many things out of context such as the fig tree parable that has absolutely nothing to do with Gog/Magog.

If this does not happen as you predict (which it won't), will you admit your entire doctrine is wrong since it hinges greatly on your understanding of Ezekiel 39? Surely, your entire doctrine would fall apart if it doesn't happen, right?

 

[The Light]

Lol. I have replied and you I'm not answered. That is the way you operate. Revelation 19:7-10 tells us, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

His “wife” is said to have “made herself ready.”

Ready, “for the marriage of the Lamb.” Whilst we (the Church) have been betrothed to Christ in salvation, the marriage will not be finally consummated until the bridegroom comes.

Thank you. I have not seen this before.

The bridegroom comes for the bride at the pretribulation rapture. This is why there are 24 elders with crowns in Rev 4 and kings and priests before the throne in Revelation 5. This will likely happen at the Feast of New Wine or Tu B'av.

The second rapture occurs at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The Lord comes for the chosen bride. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal. They are there for the marriage supper. This rapture likely happens at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. They will sing the song of Moses as the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes tell us what the harvest is.

The marriage union is the glorification feat where we are eternally changed in order to enjoy God forever – this is the final act of redemption. This is the marriage of the Lamb. In short, a prepared bride is made ready to unite with a prepared bridegroom. For this climactic event she is arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. This is her worthiness for marriage.

Amen. However the marriage supper happens in heaven.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The venom and hatred you (and fellow Pretribbers) pour out when your doctrine is challenged and you have no response is breath-taking.

All we have now is that, projection and avoidance!

You are doing more to reinforce the Op than I can do.

As much as I believe pretrib is false doctrine, I wouldn't even dream of accusing any of them of being demon oppressed or possessed. My brother-in-law is pretrib and he's one of the most humble Christians I know. I can't imagine accusing him of being demon oppressed or possessed just because I disagree with his end times beliefs. That is insane.

Pretribs are just mistaken, not oppressed or possessed. I'm sure they probably understand some other scripture accurately, but it seems they don't have a clue about end times scripture. So be it. It doesn't mean someone is oppressed or possessed by evil spirits. It makes me wonder who or what is influencing someone to say something evil like that about fellow Christians.

 

[Keraz]

Here, dissect away.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21:34-36 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. NIV

So; do you believe this prophecy proves a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church?
If so you are very deceived.

What does verse 35 say? The Day of Wrath will come upon everyone.
Verse 34 says we must be careful, or that Day will catch us unawares. Therefore; if we do carefully study and are aware of the signs, we can know that Day, or at least the season.
But, either way, that Day will come and we will be here to experience it.

Verse 35 says 'escape all these things'. This cannot mean a removal away from, as that is a direct contradiction of the previous 2 verses.
What it does mean, is told to us in many prophesies, of the Lord's protection during that terrible Day. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 23 & 91, Isaiah 30:26b, +
In the Revised English Bible, which I use; for its accuracy and lack of bias, it says: Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man. Luke 21:35

 

[The Light]

Most Bible students are very familiar what a general resurrection is. Do I need to spell it out for you? Or, are you just being your usual obtuse self? The righteous and the wicked are resurrected in response to his voice in John 5:28-29.

As I said, per Daniel 12 after the great tribulation many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be raised. After that...........John 5 what you call a general resurrection.......all that are in the ground at that time shall rise. This is after the wrath of God.

 

[Keraz]

As I said, per Daniel 12 after the great tribulation many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be raised. After that...........John 5 what you call a general resurrection.......all that are in the ground at that time shall rise. This is after the wrath of God.

Daniel 12 is plainly after the Millennium.. Revelation 20:11-15 parallels it.

 

[The Light]

Luke 21:34-36 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. NIV

So; do you believe this prophecy proves a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church?
If so you are very deceived.

The only was we can escape all these things that come to pass and stand before the Son of man is to be raptured before the great tribulation.

What does verse 35 say? The Day of Wrath will come upon everyone.
Verse 34 says we must be careful, or that Day will catch us unawares. Therefore; if we do carefully study and are aware of the signs, we can know that Day, or at least the season.
But, either way, that Day will come and we will be here to experience it.

No. There are those that will escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass.

Verse 35 says 'escape all these things'. This cannot mean a removal away from, as that is a direct contradiction of the previous 2 verses.
What it does mean, is told to us in many prophesies, of the Lord's protection during that terrible Day. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 23 & 91, Isaiah 30:26b, +
In the Revised English Bible, which I use; for its accuracy and lack of bias, it says: Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man. Luke 21:35

You are using a bad translation. I would recommend the King James Version.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Honestly I have no clue what you consider a "GENERAL RESURRECTION". Is this when generals are resurrected?

There is a resurrection at the 6th seal which is immediately after the tribulation. Many that sleep in the ground will be raised.

Then there is a resurrection at the end of God wrath when ALL who have done good and evil are raised.

Well, all except those who were already resurrected at the 6th seal, anyway, according to you.

I guess all doesn't really mean all in your doctrine.

How many resurrection events do you believe there will be?

So when are the Christians raised?

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming..... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

According to scripture, Christians will be resurrected when Christ returns at the last trumpet on the last day.