Apokatastasis in the Bible

[hies]

1) Why would you use hell as a defense when you don't believe in it?
2) Hell isn't a place where souls are free to sin. That place is heaven. Remember what happened to Lucifer? (he was free to sin)

]

It was a rhetorical question meant to show you the absurdity of your question. But I do believe in hell. You don't.

We're free to sin here, and in heaven. But if someone chooses to sin when they already have everything that God could give them, then there's nothing he can do to stop them from sinning but destroy them. God should destroy sin, right?

 

[hies]

Not according to the predeterminism that you preach.

Countless billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge whatsoever of Christ.

]

Romans 1:20 says we're all without excuse. He has given everyone enough knowledge to seek him. They didn't want to seek him, and even if he drew them to him, they would have still rejected him for their sins.

"How could people reject Christ?" - well they crucified him, so.

I don't even know why you're a Christian when you reject basically everything the Bible teaches.
"But it's all corrupt"
Dead Sea Scrolls ain't.

 

[St. SteVen]

Romans 1:20 says we're all without excuse.

I knew you would say that.

What is it about the creation that makes the gospel message clear?

]

 

[hies]

I knew you would say that.

What is it about the creation that makes the gospel message clear?

]

If you actually read Romans 1:20 it answers that for you:
"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

And no this isn't the gospel message that is made clear. It's the existence of God that is made clear. Yet they know this, and don't want to seek him.

 

[Lizbeth]

That says nothing about restoration, obviously.

]

"Everything that can be shaken will be shaken until ONLY WHAT CANNOT BE SHAKEN WILL REMAIN."

 

[Lizbeth]

Is that supposed to be the good news of the Gospel? Sounds more like bad news.

]

Sinners can be saved through faith in Christ...that is good news indeed (for whosoever will), otherwise everyone would perish like the beasts.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Not according to the predeterminism that you preach.
Countless billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge whatsoever of Christ.

Romans 1:20 says we're all without excuse.

This was your answer.

And no this isn't the gospel message that is made clear. It's the existence of God that is made clear. Yet they know this, and don't want to seek him.

So how does that equate to "men are without excuse"?

Is there salvation in recognizing and seeking the creator? Lots pf religions do that.

]

 

[hies]

St. SteVen said:
Not according to the predeterminism that you preach.
Countless billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge whatsoever of Christ.

This was your answer.

So how does that equate to "men are without excuse"?

Is there salvation in recognizing and seeking the creator? Lots pf religions do that.

]

It's pretty straightforward really: How are God’s invisible attributes clearly seen in creation (Romans 1:20)? | GotQuestions.org

Yes some invented their own gods, just like the Bible says. They're still without excuse.

But as for people who never heard of Jesus? Well their consciences will testify against them (Romans 2:15). But also see Romans 2:12. In fact, a lot of your questions could be answered if you just read the Bible. Start with Romans 2.

However, you seem to disagree with 100% of the Bible, so I really do not understand why you're a Christian... That's a question. Why are you a Christian?

Also you didn't answer my other question. Why shouldn't we kill babies in universalism?

And you ignored the fact we have the DSS proving that yes, some will ideed spend an eternity separate from the creator (Daniel 12:2), so it's not just a NT corruption. If you hold that damnation is a result of the NT being corrupt, you must also hold that the Dead Sea Scrolls too are corrupt. And at that point, there is nothing to rely upon except your own opinions. Which is all you seem to offer anyway, so you're committing idolatry by creating God in your own image. Oh wait, if it's all corrupt, is idolatry even a sin? Surely worshipping your own thoughts can't be that bad... right?

 

[St. SteVen]

I really do not understand why you're a Christian... That's a question. Why are you a Christian?

Your view of Christianity is far too narrow. You seem to think that only those who share your doctrinal opinions can be Christians. The Body of Christ is much more diverse than you realize. Build bridges, not walls.

]

 

[hies]

Your view of Christianity is far too narrow. You seem to think that only those who share your doctrinal opinions can be Christians. The Body of Christ is much more diverse than you realize. Build bridges, not walls.

]

"13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." - Matthew 7:13-14

The truth is not subjective. Also you saying I should broaden my opinions is in itself a narrow view. We all have exclusive beliefs.

And yes I can disagree with people on many issues and all is fine, but when they reject basically the entire Bible, I think it's quite reasonable to ask them why they call themselves Christians..

Also I was just recommended this and immediately thought of you:

 

[St. SteVen]

"13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." - Matthew 7:13-14

I don't believe this scripture is in reference to salvation and the afterlife, even though that is the common view. Consider this...

If the broad and narrow gate are about salvation and the afterlife, then we have to contend with the implications. "only a few find it." ??? !!!

If only a few find it, then God is making sport of our eternal destination with a game of hide and seek.

And yes I can disagree with people on many issues and all is fine, but when they reject basically the entire Bible, I think it's quite reasonable to ask them why they call themselves Christians..

I'm not rejecting the Bible. I am rejecting your opinions about what it says and means. You seem to think that your doctrinal opinions are absolute truth.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

I'm not rejecting the Bible. I am rejecting your opinions about what it says and means. You seem to think that your doctrinal opinions are absolute truth.

Absolute truth - Do we know what it is?​

Jesus said to Pilate, "... the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?" - John 18:37-38 NIV Still a good question. Absolute truth - Do we know what it is? ]

Is Truth Relevant? True and False are opinions. - True or False?​

A follow-up to this previous (short-lived) topic: https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/absolute-truth-do-we-know-what-it-is.63543/ Absolute truth - Do we know what it is? Jesus said to Pilate, "... the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the...

The Biblical Truth About Hell - video and transcript​

Here's a video about The Biblical Truth About Hell Transcript below. This comes from the view of Annihilationism, which challenges the forever burning hell doctrine of eternal conscious torment. My personal view is that of Ultimate Redemption of all humankind. But this video makes a lot of...

 

[hies]

I don't believe this scripture is in reference to salvation and the afterlife, even though that is the common view. Consider this...

If the broad and narrow gate are about salvation and the afterlife, then we have to contend with the implications. "only a few find it." ??? !!!

If only a few find it, then God is making sport of our eternal destination with a game of hide and seek.


I'm not rejecting the Bible. I am rejecting your opinions about what it says and means. You seem to think that your doctrinal opinions are absolute truth.

/

What this verse means is that Jesus' life is the only path to heaven. That no one comes to the Father but through him. And indeed most people reject him, yet most people know about him and what he did for them. So he wasn't lying.

To be fair, if Romans 1:20 means everyone is without excuse, and almost everyone on this planet has heard about Jesus dying on a cross for them, then they spend 70 years not once even pausing to think about what that means, then I do think they've made it quite clear they couldn't care less. But I also do believe in death bed conversions.

And I also believe that he will reveal himself to anyone willing to accept him, especially to those who haven't heard the gospel from anyone before. He did that for me, but

There are millions of stories like these. They're just a minute long so check them out.

Hell is a very real place. If everyone wanted to know him, indeed he would just reveal himself to every one of us. You seriously need to learn just how truly evil some people can be.

 

[St. SteVen]

What this verse means is that Jesus' life is the only path to heaven. That no one comes to the Father but through him. And indeed most people reject him, yet most people know about him and what he did for them. So he wasn't lying.

Most people reject him? If that verse is about salvation, it states that MOST can't even find him. ("only a few find it.") Better rethink that one.

To be fair, if Romans 1:20 means everyone is without excuse, and almost everyone on this planet has heard about Jesus dying on a cross for them, then they spend 70 years not once even pausing to think about what that means, then I do think they've made it quite clear they couldn't care less. But I also do believe in death bed conversions.

To be fair? - LOL
Countless billions have gone to the afterlife with ZERO knowledge of Jesus Christ, and you say "almost everyone on this planet has heard about Jesus"? What's the population of China? And what about the time before Christ?

And I also believe that he will reveal himself to anyone willing to accept him, especially to those who haven't heard the gospel from anyone before. He did that for me, but

On that point we agree. Well done.

Hell is a very real place. If everyone wanted to know him, indeed he would just reveal himself to every one of us. You seriously need to learn just how truly evil some people can be.

I've seen Christians in action. That's all I need to know about evil.

]

 

[hies]

Most people reject him? If that verse is about salvation, it states that MOST can't even find him. ("only a few find it.") Better rethink that one.


To be fair? - LOL
Countless billions have gone to the afterlife with ZERO knowledge of Jesus Christ, and you say "almost everyone on this planet has heard about Jesus"? What's the population of China? And what about the time before Christ?


On that point we agree. Well done.


I've seen Christians in action. That's all I need to know about evil.

]

Correct. Most people who hear about him reject him. They know what he did and they don't even care. Only a few will bother to investigate it for themselves, but everyone is free to.

People don't need to hear about Jesus to be without excuse.

Again you're throwing out the entire Bible. If you just read it for what it says instead of what you want it to say, you wouldn't have to ask me so many questions!

 

[Hobie]

I thought Apokatastasis was only a theological term from the early church.
Now I come to find out that it is in the Bible as a word in the NT Greek text.
Thanks to my good friend and dear brother @Chadrho for pointing it out.

Here it is.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Perhaps you can't see it? I can help.

"... until the time comes for God to restore everything,"

There it is. Here's the NT Greek.

ἀποκαταστάσεως (apokatastaseōs) — 1 Occurrence
Acts 3:21 N-GFS
GRK: ἄχρι χρόνων ἀποκαταστάσεως πάντων ὧν
NAS: [the] period of restoration of all things
KJV: the times of restitution of all things,
INT: until times of restoration of all things of which

So, "What is it?" you might ask.

Apocatastasis
In theology, apocatastasis is the restoration of creation to a condition of perfection.
In Christianity, it is a form of Christian universalism that includes the ultimate salvation of everyone
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm often told that Christian Universalism isn't in the Bible.
Now we know better.

Agree or disagree?


@Patrick1966

It is the restoration of what God intended from Creation, not a world of sinners to fill His universe, only Satan would desire that as we well know...

 

[St. SteVen]

People don't need to hear about Jesus to be without excuse.

Seriously? How does that work?

Again you're throwing out the entire Bible. If you just read it for what it says instead of what you want it to say, you wouldn't have to ask me so many questions!

LOL
Do you conclude that I haven't read the Bible because I disagree with your biblical opinions?

]

 

[hies]

Seriously? How does that work?


LOL
Do you conclude that I haven't read the Bible because I disagree with your biblical opinions?

]

Romans 1:20

I conclude that you ignore what you read, yes.

 

[St. SteVen]

Romans 1:20

I conclude that you ignore what you read, yes.

You didn't answer the question. Repeating the reference doesn't answer the question.
Let's try again.

People don't need to hear about Jesus to be without excuse.

How does that work?

]

 

[hies]

You didn't answer the question. Repeating the reference doesn't answer the question.
Let's try again.

How does that work?

]

We went over this too: How are God’s invisible attributes clearly seen in creation (Romans 1:20)? | GotQuestions.org

I'm just repeating myself at this point, because you have a very selective memory.